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  • Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
    None of those qbs have a winning career record when their defense was ranked 20th or lower. No qb in the history of the nfl has a winning record when their defense is ranked 20th or lower.

    Last year denver had the 31st best defense. the 32nd best defense went 0-16. the 30th best defense went 2-14. The fact that we went 8-8 is because we had an excellent offense with a top 5 qb in the nfl (those arent my words, there John Elway's)

    Cutler carried this team last year. No qb in the history of the game would have had a winning record over the last two years with a defense as bad as ours. History proves that to be true.

    Elway--.643 career winning percentage. 1986 Denver Broncos 21st overall Defense (that was a Superbowl Year)...1988 Denver Broncos 20th in Yds/All., 22nd in PPG/All. (profootballreference.com) In fact, a lot of people say (I'm one of them) that if Elway hadn't played on such average teams IN CERTAIN YEARS in the 80's and early 90's, he would have won more SB's. 1987 was the great year where it all came together, I believe we were 7th in overall defense. Orange Crush really came on then. That's besides the point (I'm just daydreaming about the good ol' days).

    Good enough for you?

    Just to be fair, we had the 29th best. Still horrible, but your facts are a little off. The 32nd best defense went 0-16 because they had absolutely no offensive production. I didn't say the Broncos didn't have offensive production. I said when it mattered most Jay folded. IE last three games of this season. Key Losses when the O scored under 21 points. etc.

    We had the 2nd best offense in between Red Zones. No doubt Jay Cutler could move the ball at will, especially with perhaps the best O line and the best O tackle in the league giving him all that time to do his thing (only 11 sacks in 616 pass attempts), as well as having one of the best WR and TE corps in the NFL.

    Jay Cutler in the Red Zone? Where it matters? Where we all know it was on him to punch it in because we were on our 9th string RB?

    Led the NFL in INT's in the Red Zone in 2008--(14).

    Listen, I'm not saying Jay doesn't have the tools to do it, so ease out a little bit. It's just my two cents anyway. To me he hasn't proven he can carry a team squarely on his shoulders, and we know he isn't a leader yet. In fact that's my primary argument in this case. All those QB's were unquestioned leaders. He needs to mature in his game and in attitude IMO. What you think is up to you I guess.
    Last edited by downinbellum; 06-28-2009, 08:51 AM.
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    • I posted this a long time ago- but it is still relevant:

      To all those who blame Cutler for 17-20

      How bad was the Broncos defense during Cutler's two years of starting? How does that defense compare to the Defense that Plummer played with? How about any of the defenses Elway played with? Have other qb's in the league ever succeeded with a Def that bad? I uses this site to answer these questions: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/

      The defense during Culer's time as qb was the 28th ranked and 30th ranked defense in the nfl based on points allowed. I chose points allowed because the fundamental job of a defense is to stop people from scoring. Those are the lowest rankings the broncos have had since the merger. Cutler's record is amazing considering how atrocious this defense is.

      DEFENSE MATTERS

      People often say Plummer is better than Cutler because he had a better winning %, but Plummer never played with a defense that wasn't in the top ten.

      DEFENSE MATTERS

      The great John Elway (the best football player of all time regardless of position) only played with a defense ranked lower than 20th in three seasons. How did he fare? I only counted the games Elway started in and didn't look at games where he was injured.

      1988-Denver ppg rank was 20th. Elway was 8-7
      1990 Denver ppg rank was 23rd. Elway was 5-11
      1994 Denver ppg rank was 25th. Elway was 7-7

      When playing with a defense ranked lower than 20- Elway's career record was 20-25. Do you want to call him a loser based on the years when he had the least defensive support?

      DEFENSE MATTERS

      How about Peyton Manning? He had a defense as bad as Denver's in 1991. They were ranked 31st. Peyton's record that year? 6-10.

      DEFENSE MATTERS

      Tom Brady? He has never had a defense nearly as bad as Denvers. The worst defensive rank he has ever played with was the 17th ranked defense (just a shade below average). His record with that defensive rank is 19-16. Very un-Brady like.

      DEFENSE MATTERS

      The great Joe Montana? He had a top 10 defense every year of his career in SF except one. That year Joe went 3-6.

      DEFENSE MATTERS

      Dan Marino? He played with some bad defenses (none were as bad as denver's)
      1986 25th ranked def..... Marino 8-8
      1988 24th renked def......marino 6-10
      1989 22nd ranked def.....Marino 8-8
      1991 24th ranked def.....Marino 8-8
      1993 24th ranked def.....marino 9-7

      DEFENSE MATTERS

      Last year Cutler forced the ball too much. that's true. But when you know that virtually every time you punt, the other team will score.....you tend to force balls on third down instead of just throwing it away. last year Denver was at the bottom of the league in takeaways. Cutler never got the benefit of the momentum changes that takeaways create, let alone the short field that often results.

      NO QB IN THE LEAGUE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER THAN CUTLER THE LAST TWO YEARS!

      Why? DEFENSE MATTERS!
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      • I know defense matters. I never said it didn't. And I just proved you wrong (you said career winning % with any D out of the top 20). You posted all those great stats after the fact.
        Last edited by downinbellum; 06-28-2009, 10:36 AM.
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        • Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
          Elway--.643 career winning percentage. 1986 Denver Broncos 21st overall Defense (that was a Superbowl Year)...1988 Denver Broncos 20th in Yds/All., 22nd in PPG/All. (profootballreference.com) In fact, a lot of people say (I'm one of them) that if Elway hadn't played on such average teams IN CERTAIN YEARS in the 80's and early 90's, he would have won more SB's. 1987 was the great year where it all came together, I believe we were 7th in overall defense. Orange Crush really came on then. That's besides the point (I'm just daydreaming about the good ol' days).
          you need to go back and look at your source better. In 86th we were 15th in yards and 9th in points (we went 11-5). You were right on the stats for 88....but in 88, we only went 8-8.

          I agree with your point about John.....but if you are going to use stats to support claims...make sure you are reading them correctly.

          The fact is that if you look at John's career record when he had a defense ranked 20th or lower in points allowed...he was a sub .500 qb
          Last edited by Pura Vida; 06-28-2009, 10:39 AM.
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          • Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
            you need to go back and look at your source better. In 86th we were 15th in yards and 9th in points. You were right on the stats for 88....but in 88, we only went 8-8.

            I agree with your point about John.....but if you are going to use stats to support claims...make sure you are reading them correctly.
            I believe we used the same source, and I believe i said overall, not yds or points. this takes into account TO differential,TOP, as well as yds allowed and ppg etc..
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            Shanny Fan? McDaniels Fan? I'm a Denver Broncos Fan!!!

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            • If we are using the same source....why are you reporting something that isn't even on the source.

              The source only lists defensive ranking by points scored and by yards allowed. there is no other ranking on that site.

              Its ok...just admit you read it wrong. But dont dig the whole deeper by making thngs up that arent there.
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              • Go here. Look at 1986. Tell me how you came up with a 21st ranking????
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                • Originally posted by Orton_Backer81 View Post
                  Kyle Orton still won with the terrible third string wide receiver core, terrible run first/second coaching, bad O line and an overrated defense that has been aging like milk - and he still won. Kyle Orton produced more than Roethlisberger(TD's/INT's), won more games than Jay "cry baby" Cutler and is progressing as well as any QB in the NFL. That is evidence of a leader. Have you LISTENED to what Kyle Orton has said?!? Sounds like a leader to me. Unlike Jay "cheese with his whine" Cutler.
                  right, because 1 win more than cutler last season was a huuuuuuuuugggeeee difference.

                  Comment


                  • "21st in overall defense with 5,646 yards"
                    <http://en.allexperts.com/e/0/1986_denver_broncos.htm>.

                    Differing opinions on overall defense, it appears. Relax, research more than one site. Both are legitimate points in a debate. Only a fool will turn it into an argument, which you are teetering on...

                    Perhaps I read it wrong on one particular site, perhaps my words were jumbled. However, I refuse to debate subjectivity. I'm only relaying and interpreting information I observed. It may be wrong, but yours may also be wrong.

                    "Pull that out of your ass, my friend"
                    Last edited by downinbellum; 06-28-2009, 11:23 AM.
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                    The Lone Ranger

                    Member #970 of the Knowshon Fan Club. Championship!

                    Shanny Fan? McDaniels Fan? I'm a Denver Broncos Fan!!!

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                    • Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
                      "21st in overall defense with 5,646 yards"
                      <http://en.allexperts.com/e/0/1986_denver_broncos.htm>.

                      Differing opinions on overall defense, it appears. Relax, research more than one site. Both are legitimate points in a debate. Only a fool will turn it into an argument, which you are teetering on...

                      "Pull that out of your ass, my friend"
                      Is this your normal way of debating? Because it seems awfully caustic.

                      Just me, I guess . . .


                      Anyway, after going to this chart, which is the one to which Pura Vida
                      alluded, one can wonder how "All Experts" came up with their ranking of 21st
                      in the league on yards allowed on defense because the chart to which we
                      referred you has them at #9 in that category.

                      -----

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by topscribe View Post
                        Is this your normal way of debating? Because it seems awfully caustic.

                        Just me, I guess . . .


                        Anyway, after going to this chart, which is the one to which Pura Vida
                        alluded, one can wonder how "All Experts" came up with their ranking of 21st
                        in the league on yards allowed on defense because the chart to which we
                        referred you has them at #9 in that category.

                        -----
                        Only a reactionary stance against his abrasive and aggressive words.

                        And yes, I do admit that the information seems contradictory. I fail to see how this is my fault, i admit I could be wrong, but there seems to be a lot of contradiction in the stats here, stats I haven't manipulated. Therefore don't turn it on me, as Pura has.
                        Last edited by downinbellum; 06-28-2009, 11:30 AM.
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                        The Lone Ranger

                        Member #970 of the Knowshon Fan Club. Championship!

                        Shanny Fan? McDaniels Fan? I'm a Denver Broncos Fan!!!

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                        • Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
                          Only a reactionary stance against his abrasive and aggressive words.

                          And yes, I do admit that the information seems contradictory. I fail to see how this is my fault, i admit I could be wrong, but there seems to be a lot of contradiction in the stats here, stats I haven't manipulated. Therefore don't turn it on me, as Pura has.
                          You seem awfully defensive. Did you have breakfast?

                          I mean, I only pointed out the discrepancy to you. I didn't "turn it" on you.

                          -----

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by topscribe View Post
                            You seem awfully defensive. Did you have breakfast?

                            I mean, I only pointed out the discrepancy to you. I didn't "turn it" on you.

                            -----

                            Me? Defensive? Nah... just pointing out that I wasn't making things up, as it were. I take exception to that, but no problem. I wasn't suggesting you "turned it" on me. Just asking you to not misinterpret my observations, then accuse me of lying.

                            It isn't a problem at all, man. How'd we even get to this point haha?
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                            The Lone Ranger

                            Member #970 of the Knowshon Fan Club. Championship!

                            Shanny Fan? McDaniels Fan? I'm a Denver Broncos Fan!!!

                            NECKBEARD!

                            Comment


                            • It is odd that profootbalreference doesn't include total (or overall) defense in this case. Only yds and ppg, as Pura so aptly put it. I don't know much about the site, personally...
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                              The Lone Ranger

                              Member #970 of the Knowshon Fan Club. Championship!

                              Shanny Fan? McDaniels Fan? I'm a Denver Broncos Fan!!!

                              NECKBEARD!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
                                I posted this a long time ago- but it is still relevant:

                                To all those who blame Cutler for 17-20

                                How bad was the Broncos defense during Cutler's two years of starting? How does that defense compare to the Defense that Plummer played with? How about any of the defenses Elway played with? Have other qb's in the league ever succeeded with a Def that bad? I uses this site to answer these questions: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/

                                The defense during Culer's time as qb was the 28th ranked and 30th ranked defense in the nfl based on points allowed. I chose points allowed because the fundamental job of a defense is to stop people from scoring. Those are the lowest rankings the broncos have had since the merger. Cutler's record is amazing considering how atrocious this defense is.

                                DEFENSE MATTERS

                                People often say Plummer is better than Cutler because he had a better winning %, but Plummer never played with a defense that wasn't in the top ten.

                                DEFENSE MATTERS

                                The great John Elway (the best football player of all time regardless of position) only played with a defense ranked lower than 20th in three seasons. How did he fare? I only counted the games Elway started in and didn't look at games where he was injured.

                                1988-Denver ppg rank was 20th. Elway was 8-7
                                1990 Denver ppg rank was 23rd. Elway was 5-11
                                1994 Denver ppg rank was 25th. Elway was 7-7

                                When playing with a defense ranked lower than 20- Elway's career record was 20-25. Do you want to call him a loser based on the years when he had the least defensive support?

                                DEFENSE MATTERS

                                How about Peyton Manning? He had a defense as bad as Denver's in 1991. They were ranked 31st. Peyton's record that year? 6-10.

                                DEFENSE MATTERS

                                Tom Brady? He has never had a defense nearly as bad as Denvers. The worst defensive rank he has ever played with was the 17th ranked defense (just a shade below average). His record with that defensive rank is 19-16. Very un-Brady like.

                                DEFENSE MATTERS

                                The great Joe Montana? He had a top 10 defense every year of his career in SF except one. That year Joe went 3-6.

                                DEFENSE MATTERS

                                Dan Marino? He played with some bad defenses (none were as bad as denver's)
                                1986 25th ranked def..... Marino 8-8
                                1988 24th renked def......marino 6-10
                                1989 22nd ranked def.....Marino 8-8
                                1991 24th ranked def.....Marino 8-8
                                1993 24th ranked def.....marino 9-7

                                DEFENSE MATTERS

                                Last year Cutler forced the ball too much. that's true. But when you know that virtually every time you punt, the other team will score.....you tend to force balls on third down instead of just throwing it away. last year Denver was at the bottom of the league in takeaways. Cutler never got the benefit of the momentum changes that takeaways create, let alone the short field that often results.

                                NO QB IN THE LEAGUE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER THAN CUTLER THE LAST TWO YEARS!

                                Why? DEFENSE MATTERS!
                                Beyond your silly accusations, I also want to say great research. Certainly eclipses mine. Congratulations!! Our defense certainly sucked last year... I was just watching the Bills game replayed. I agree with you, Cutler had nothing to work with.

                                In the end, I'll maintain that the key stat must be Red Zone INT's (as well as may of the forced passes), and from an emotional standpoint: leadership. Cutler's just in the first stages of his career. I have no doubt he'll have a winning record, though playing with horrible defenses like ours last year, during his career. I'm no Cutler basher, just a Broncos fan who wants to see players play for our team, the team they want to be on, the team they should lead... that aspect Cutler wasn't able to pull off on our team. But like I and many others have said, he is only in the early stages of his career. Maybe he will turn it around in Chicago. Personally, I hope not, because I want that high draft pick!! That's neither here nor there, though...

                                Enough Jay Cutler talk, for me...

                                NECKBEARD!!!
                                Last edited by downinbellum; 06-28-2009, 12:15 PM.
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                                The Lone Ranger

                                Member #970 of the Knowshon Fan Club. Championship!

                                Shanny Fan? McDaniels Fan? I'm a Denver Broncos Fan!!!

                                NECKBEARD!

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