Kyle Orton is the man!

[Horsense]

cutler went to vanderbilt which is in the sec, and not an ivy league school.

lol ivy league

[downinbellum]

No, your point was well put, the stats in my sources were contradictory. Happy? Want a medal for it?

Ya, I would actually. IMO a fool resorts to calling others liars... on the internet haha... and yes I believe I have "saved face" as you put it, because even in my first posts in this thread I said team has a lot to do with his record. Look back a few pages, it's all there.

Enough of arguing with you, in the end I agree with you about Jay and the Defense.

[Pura Vida]

"21st in overall defense with 5,646 yards"
<http://en.allexperts.com/e/0/1986_denver_broncos.htm>.

Differing opinions on overall defense, it appears. Relax, research more than one site. Both are legitimate points in a debate. Only a fool will turn it into an argument, which you are teetering on...

Perhaps I read it wrong on one particular site, perhaps my words were jumbled. However, I refuse to debate subjectivity. I'm only relaying and interpreting information I observed. It may be wrong, but yours may also be wrong.

"Pull that out of your ass, my friend"

the allexperst site uses the pro football reference site to support its 21st in yards allowed claim.. But when you click on that link all experst provides, it clearly shows denver at 9th in yards allowed.

This isnt a matter of opinion. Denver had the 9th best defense in the nfl in 86 when it comes to yards allowed. Im sorry you found a site that misreported it. At least you can save face now by admitting that the site you found was wrong and that it is their fault and not yours.

However, my info isnt wrong...its a matter of recorded history.

Only a fool would bring this to argument level? Would you rather I see wrong information and just let it go? It seems to me that a fool would do just that.

Back to the point. The bottom line is that every single qb in the history of the nfl has a career losing record when you only look at all of the seasons where that qb played with a defense that ranked 20th or lower in points allowed. EVERY SINGLE ONE!

But...yea...lets blame cutler for 17-20. Thats just ridiculous.

[downinbellum]

I posted this a long time ago- but it is still relevant:

To all those who blame Cutler for 17-20

How bad was the Broncos defense during Cutler's two years of starting? How does that defense compare to the Defense that Plummer played with? How about any of the defenses Elway played with? Have other qb's in the league ever succeeded with a Def that bad? I uses this site to answer these questions: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/

The defense during Culer's time as qb was the 28th ranked and 30th ranked defense in the nfl based on points allowed. I chose points allowed because the fundamental job of a defense is to stop people from scoring. Those are the lowest rankings the broncos have had since the merger. Cutler's record is amazing considering how atrocious this defense is.

DEFENSE MATTERS

People often say Plummer is better than Cutler because he had a better winning %, but Plummer never played with a defense that wasn't in the top ten.

DEFENSE MATTERS

The great John Elway (the best football player of all time regardless of position) only played with a defense ranked lower than 20th in three seasons. How did he fare? I only counted the games Elway started in and didn't look at games where he was injured.

1988-Denver ppg rank was 20th. Elway was 8-7
1990 Denver ppg rank was 23rd. Elway was 5-11
1994 Denver ppg rank was 25th. Elway was 7-7

When playing with a defense ranked lower than 20- Elway's career record was 20-25. Do you want to call him a loser based on the years when he had the least defensive support?

DEFENSE MATTERS

How about Peyton Manning? He had a defense as bad as Denver's in 1991. They were ranked 31st. Peyton's record that year? 6-10.

DEFENSE MATTERS

Tom Brady? He has never had a defense nearly as bad as Denvers. The worst defensive rank he has ever played with was the 17th ranked defense (just a shade below average). His record with that defensive rank is 19-16. Very un-Brady like.

DEFENSE MATTERS

The great Joe Montana? He had a top 10 defense every year of his career in SF except one. That year Joe went 3-6.

DEFENSE MATTERS

Dan Marino? He played with some bad defenses (none were as bad as denver's)
1986 25th ranked def..... Marino 8-8
1988 24th renked def......marino 6-10
1989 22nd ranked def.....Marino 8-8
1991 24th ranked def.....Marino 8-8
1993 24th ranked def.....marino 9-7

DEFENSE MATTERS

Last year Cutler forced the ball too much. that's true. But when you know that virtually every time you punt, the other team will score.....you tend to force balls on third down instead of just throwing it away. last year Denver was at the bottom of the league in takeaways. Cutler never got the benefit of the momentum changes that takeaways create, let alone the short field that often results.

NO QB IN THE LEAGUE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER THAN CUTLER THE LAST TWO YEARS!

Why? DEFENSE MATTERS!

Beyond your silly accusations, I also want to say great research. Certainly eclipses mine. Congratulations!! Our defense certainly sucked last year... I was just watching the Bills game replayed. I agree with you, Cutler had nothing to work with.

In the end, I'll maintain that the key stat must be Red Zone INT's (as well as may of the forced passes), and from an emotional standpoint: leadership. Cutler's just in the first stages of his career. I have no doubt he'll have a winning record, though playing with horrible defenses like ours last year, during his career. I'm no Cutler basher, just a Broncos fan who wants to see players play for our team, the team they want to be on, the team they should lead... that aspect Cutler wasn't able to pull off on our team. But like I and many others have said, he is only in the early stages of his career. Maybe he will turn it around in Chicago. Personally, I hope not, because I want that high draft pick!! That's neither here nor there, though...

Enough Jay Cutler talk, for me...

NECKBEARD!!!

[downinbellum]

It is odd that profootbalreference doesn't include total (or overall) defense in this case. Only yds and ppg, as Pura so aptly put it. I don't know much about the site, personally...

[downinbellum]

You seem awfully defensive. Did you have breakfast?

I mean, I only pointed out the discrepancy to you. I didn't "turn it" on you.

-----

Me? Defensive? Nah... just pointing out that I wasn't making things up, as it were. I take exception to that, but no problem. I wasn't suggesting you "turned it" on me. Just asking you to not misinterpret my observations, then accuse me of lying.

It isn't a problem at all, man. How'd we even get to this point haha?

[topscribe]

Only a reactionary stance against his abrasive and aggressive words.

And yes, I do admit that the information seems contradictory. I fail to see how this is my fault, i admit I could be wrong, but there seems to be a lot of contradiction in the stats here, stats I haven't manipulated. Therefore don't turn it on me, as Pura has.

You seem awfully defensive. Did you have breakfast?

I mean, I only pointed out the discrepancy to you. I didn't "turn it" on you.

-----

[downinbellum]

Is this your normal way of debating? Because it seems awfully caustic.

Just me, I guess . . .


Anyway, after going to this chart, which is the one to which Pura Vida
alluded, one can wonder how "All Experts" came up with their ranking of 21st
in the league on yards allowed on defense because the chart to which we
referred you has them at #9 in that category.

-----

Only a reactionary stance against his abrasive and aggressive words.

And yes, I do admit that the information seems contradictory. I fail to see how this is my fault, i admit I could be wrong, but there seems to be a lot of contradiction in the stats here, stats I haven't manipulated. Therefore don't turn it on me, as Pura has.

[topscribe]

"21st in overall defense with 5,646 yards"
<http://en.allexperts.com/e/0/1986_denver_broncos.htm>.

Differing opinions on overall defense, it appears. Relax, research more than one site. Both are legitimate points in a debate. Only a fool will turn it into an argument, which you are teetering on...

"Pull that out of your ass, my friend"

Is this your normal way of debating? Because it seems awfully caustic.

Just me, I guess . . .


Anyway, after going to this chart, which is the one to which Pura Vida
alluded, one can wonder how "All Experts" came up with their ranking of 21st
in the league on yards allowed on defense because the chart to which we
referred you has them at #9 in that category.

-----

[downinbellum]

"21st in overall defense with 5,646 yards"
<http://en.allexperts.com/e/0/1986_denver_broncos.htm>.

Differing opinions on overall defense, it appears. Relax, research more than one site. Both are legitimate points in a debate. Only a fool will turn it into an argument, which you are teetering on...

Perhaps I read it wrong on one particular site, perhaps my words were jumbled. However, I refuse to debate subjectivity. I'm only relaying and interpreting information I observed. It may be wrong, but yours may also be wrong.

"Pull that out of your ass, my friend"

[saphire1]

Kyle Orton still won with the terrible third string wide receiver core, terrible run first/second coaching, bad O line and an overrated defense that has been aging like milk - and he still won. Kyle Orton produced more than Roethlisberger(TD's/INT's), won more games than Jay "cry baby" Cutler and is progressing as well as any QB in the NFL. That is evidence of a leader. Have you LISTENED to what Kyle Orton has said?!? Sounds like a leader to me. Unlike Jay "cheese with his whine" Cutler.

right, because 1 win more than cutler last season was a huuuuuuuuugggeeee difference.

[Pura Vida]

:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/

Go here. Look at 1986. Tell me how you came up with a 21st ranking????

[Pura Vida]

If we are using the same source....why are you reporting something that isn't even on the source.

The source only lists defensive ranking by points scored and by yards allowed. there is no other ranking on that site.

Its ok...just admit you read it wrong. But dont dig the whole deeper by making thngs up that arent there.

[downinbellum]

you need to go back and look at your source better. In 86th we were 15th in yards and 9th in points. You were right on the stats for 88....but in 88, we only went 8-8.

I agree with your point about John.....but if you are going to use stats to support claims...make sure you are reading them correctly.

I believe we used the same source, and I believe i said overall, not yds or points. this takes into account TO differential,TOP, as well as yds allowed and ppg etc..

[Pura Vida]

Elway--.643 career winning percentage. 1986 Denver Broncos 21st overall Defense (that was a Superbowl Year)...1988 Denver Broncos 20th in Yds/All., 22nd in PPG/All. (profootballreference.com) In fact, a lot of people say (I'm one of them) that if Elway hadn't played on such average teams IN CERTAIN YEARS in the 80's and early 90's, he would have won more SB's. 1987 was the great year where it all came together, I believe we were 7th in overall defense. Orange Crush really came on then. That's besides the point (I'm just daydreaming about the good ol' days).

you need to go back and look at your source better. In 86th we were 15th in yards and 9th in points (we went 11-5). You were right on the stats for 88....but in 88, we only went 8-8.

I agree with your point about John.....but if you are going to use stats to support claims...make sure you are reading them correctly.

The fact is that if you look at John's career record when he had a defense ranked 20th or lower in points allowed...he was a sub .500 qb