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  • downinbellum
    replied
    I know defense matters. I never said it didn't. And I just proved you wrong (you said career winning % with any D out of the top 20). You posted all those great stats after the fact.
    Last edited by downinbellum; 06-28-2009, 10:36 AM.

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  • Pura Vida
    replied
    I posted this a long time ago- but it is still relevant:

    To all those who blame Cutler for 17-20

    How bad was the Broncos defense during Cutler's two years of starting? How does that defense compare to the Defense that Plummer played with? How about any of the defenses Elway played with? Have other qb's in the league ever succeeded with a Def that bad? I uses this site to answer these questions: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/

    The defense during Culer's time as qb was the 28th ranked and 30th ranked defense in the nfl based on points allowed. I chose points allowed because the fundamental job of a defense is to stop people from scoring. Those are the lowest rankings the broncos have had since the merger. Cutler's record is amazing considering how atrocious this defense is.

    DEFENSE MATTERS

    People often say Plummer is better than Cutler because he had a better winning %, but Plummer never played with a defense that wasn't in the top ten.

    DEFENSE MATTERS

    The great John Elway (the best football player of all time regardless of position) only played with a defense ranked lower than 20th in three seasons. How did he fare? I only counted the games Elway started in and didn't look at games where he was injured.

    1988-Denver ppg rank was 20th. Elway was 8-7
    1990 Denver ppg rank was 23rd. Elway was 5-11
    1994 Denver ppg rank was 25th. Elway was 7-7

    When playing with a defense ranked lower than 20- Elway's career record was 20-25. Do you want to call him a loser based on the years when he had the least defensive support?

    DEFENSE MATTERS

    How about Peyton Manning? He had a defense as bad as Denver's in 1991. They were ranked 31st. Peyton's record that year? 6-10.

    DEFENSE MATTERS

    Tom Brady? He has never had a defense nearly as bad as Denvers. The worst defensive rank he has ever played with was the 17th ranked defense (just a shade below average). His record with that defensive rank is 19-16. Very un-Brady like.

    DEFENSE MATTERS

    The great Joe Montana? He had a top 10 defense every year of his career in SF except one. That year Joe went 3-6.

    DEFENSE MATTERS

    Dan Marino? He played with some bad defenses (none were as bad as denver's)
    1986 25th ranked def..... Marino 8-8
    1988 24th renked def......marino 6-10
    1989 22nd ranked def.....Marino 8-8
    1991 24th ranked def.....Marino 8-8
    1993 24th ranked def.....marino 9-7

    DEFENSE MATTERS

    Last year Cutler forced the ball too much. that's true. But when you know that virtually every time you punt, the other team will score.....you tend to force balls on third down instead of just throwing it away. last year Denver was at the bottom of the league in takeaways. Cutler never got the benefit of the momentum changes that takeaways create, let alone the short field that often results.

    NO QB IN THE LEAGUE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER THAN CUTLER THE LAST TWO YEARS!

    Why? DEFENSE MATTERS!

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  • downinbellum
    replied
    Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
    None of those qbs have a winning career record when their defense was ranked 20th or lower. No qb in the history of the nfl has a winning record when their defense is ranked 20th or lower.

    Last year denver had the 31st best defense. the 32nd best defense went 0-16. the 30th best defense went 2-14. The fact that we went 8-8 is because we had an excellent offense with a top 5 qb in the nfl (those arent my words, there John Elway's)

    Cutler carried this team last year. No qb in the history of the game would have had a winning record over the last two years with a defense as bad as ours. History proves that to be true.

    Elway--.643 career winning percentage. 1986 Denver Broncos 21st overall Defense (that was a Superbowl Year)...1988 Denver Broncos 20th in Yds/All., 22nd in PPG/All. (profootballreference.com) In fact, a lot of people say (I'm one of them) that if Elway hadn't played on such average teams IN CERTAIN YEARS in the 80's and early 90's, he would have won more SB's. 1987 was the great year where it all came together, I believe we were 7th in overall defense. Orange Crush really came on then. That's besides the point (I'm just daydreaming about the good ol' days).

    Good enough for you?

    Just to be fair, we had the 29th best. Still horrible, but your facts are a little off. The 32nd best defense went 0-16 because they had absolutely no offensive production. I didn't say the Broncos didn't have offensive production. I said when it mattered most Jay folded. IE last three games of this season. Key Losses when the O scored under 21 points. etc.

    We had the 2nd best offense in between Red Zones. No doubt Jay Cutler could move the ball at will, especially with perhaps the best O line and the best O tackle in the league giving him all that time to do his thing (only 11 sacks in 616 pass attempts), as well as having one of the best WR and TE corps in the NFL.

    Jay Cutler in the Red Zone? Where it matters? Where we all know it was on him to punch it in because we were on our 9th string RB?

    Led the NFL in INT's in the Red Zone in 2008--(14).

    Listen, I'm not saying Jay doesn't have the tools to do it, so ease out a little bit. It's just my two cents anyway. To me he hasn't proven he can carry a team squarely on his shoulders, and we know he isn't a leader yet. In fact that's my primary argument in this case. All those QB's were unquestioned leaders. He needs to mature in his game and in attitude IMO. What you think is up to you I guess.
    Last edited by downinbellum; 06-28-2009, 08:51 AM.

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  • Pura Vida
    replied
    Originally posted by jdubv724 View Post

    But the Vikings bowed out because, as Robinson writes, “some elements in the Minnesota coaching staff weren’t entirely sold on Cutler.”
    [/B]
    It’s not surprising. Vikings coach Brad Childress had a front-row seat in Philly for the delicate genius known as Donovan McNabb. And then, upon arriving in Minnesota, Childress and incumbent quarterback Daunte Culpepper got into a nasty pissing match before Culpepper was traded.

    So Childress surely wouldn’t want Cutler.

    This kept Minny from giving 2 first rounders for Cutler....but give them a choice between Cutler and orton and theyd take cutler everytime!

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  • Pura Vida
    replied
    Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
    . Brady/Manning/Elway/Favre/Aikman will all be remembered because their winning records as QB's were stellar, and to your point as well they won SB's with good supporting casts at times. Make no mistake, however, that many of those QB's carried their teams on their shoulders, something Cutler hasn't done yet.
    None of those qbs have a winning career record when their defense was ranked 20th or lower. No qb in the history of the nfl has a winning record when their defense is ranked 20th or lower.

    Last year denver had the 31st best defense. the 32nd best defense went 0-16. the 30th best defense went 2-14. The fact that we went 8-8 is because we had an excellent offense with a top 5 qb in the nfl (those arent my words, there John Elway's)

    Cutler carried this team last year. No qb in the history of the game would have had a winning record over the last two years with a defense as bad as ours. History proves that to be true.

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  • jdubv724
    replied
    Originally posted by r1terrell23 View Post
    Can you provide proof of the bolded? Since you are the one who asked someone else if they talked to all the GM's and writers. And several websites reported 10 teams were after Jay and inquired. If the Bears shopped Orton they'd get a 4th at best.
    Report: Vikings Pulled Out Of Cutler Talks Last Month
    Posted by Mike Florio on March 25, 2009, 10:42 p.m. EDT

    As the effort continues to identify teams that might be interested in trading for Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler, one of the franchises presumably on the short list reportedly opted to bow out last month.

    According to Charles Robinson of Yahoo! Sports, the Vikings were involved in three-team talks that would have brought Cutler to Minnesota.

    But the Vikings bowed out because, as Robinson writes, “some elements in the Minnesota coaching staff weren’t entirely sold on Cutler.”

    It’s not surprising. Vikings coach Brad Childress had a front-row seat in Philly for the delicate genius known as Donovan McNabb. And then, upon arriving in Minnesota, Childress and incumbent quarterback Daunte Culpepper got into a nasty pissing match before Culpepper was traded.

    So Childress surely wouldn’t want Cutler.


    And if the Vikings felt that way last month, they undoubtedly feel even more strongly about it now, given the extent to which Cutler has exposed the flesh of his rump to the rest of the league.

    As the effort continues to identify teams that might be interested in trading for Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler, one of the franchises presumably on the short list reportedly opted to bow out last month. According to Charles Robinson of Yahoo! Sports, the Vikings were involved in three-team talks that would have brought Cutler to Minnesota. [more]

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  • r1terrell23
    replied
    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
    The Vikings DROPPED OUT OF THE BIDDING once they researched Jay a bit. Even though a decent QB is virtually the only missing piece in their otherwise very complete team. That's why they're prostituting themselves for the chance to get Brett Favre. But they certainly didn't want Jay.
    That left Chicago, Detroit, Tampa, and Washington as interested in Jay. 4 desperate teams out of 32. That's not exactly showing a universal agreement that Jay is an elite QB.

    To claim that other teams weren't breaking down the down to get Orton is asinine at best. THE BEARS DIDN'T "SHOP" ORTON. Both Lovie and Ron Turner repeatedly stated that Kyle was to be the starter next season. Other teams didn't even see Kyle as available, so why would they publicly display interest in acquiring him? I mean, there weren't teams talking about trading for Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Philip Rivers either. Does it logically follow that they must all suck?
    Can you provide proof of the bolded? Since you are the one who asked someone else if they talked to all the GM's and writers. And several websites reported 10 teams were after Jay and inquired. If the Bears shopped Orton they'd get a 4th at best.

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  • Da Swerski
    replied
    Originally posted by Orton_Backer81 View Post
    Kyle Orton still won with the terrible third string wide receiver core, terrible run first/second coaching, bad O line and an overrated defense that has been aging like milk - and he still won. Kyle Orton produced more than Roethlisberger(TD's/INT's), won more games than Jay "cry baby" Cutler and is progressing as well as any QB in the NFL. That is evidence of a leader. Have you LISTENED to what Kyle Orton has said?!? Sounds like a leader to me. Unlike Jay "cheese with his whine" Cutler.
    Kyle Orton wasn't even the leader on the Bears offense. That was Olin Kreutz. Matt Forte was the reason the offense produced as much as it did. There was some ridiculous stat to his over usage. Did it ever occur to you that the Bears wide receivers, while lacking a star player, weren't as bad as you make them out to be? Perhaps this is how they produced? Orton only won one more game then Cutler while having a better defense.

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  • Da Swerski
    replied
    Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
    Make no mistake, however, that many of those QB's carried their teams on their shoulders, something Cutler hasn't done yet.
    Originally posted by Da Swerski View Post
    Orton has never threw the team on his back and willed us to wins. As you've seen a lot more of Cutler then I have, apparently he hasn't either.
    Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
    lol please explain that because that sound more like fanboy BS than a tangible skill that a QB could actually be graded on.
    My statement was in regards to the quote's above mine. While you're right there's not a stat on that. All I claimed was I've never seen it with Orton. He said he has never seen Cutler do it like he has some of the greats. What is there to explain?

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  • Orton_Backer81
    replied
    Originally posted by saphire1 View Post
    right, because he was sooooooo awesome as the FIELD GENERAL in leading his offense last year.

    i want that crack you're smoking. it must be so good.
    Kyle Orton still won with the terrible third string wide receiver core, terrible run first/second coaching, bad O line and an overrated defense that has been aging like milk - and he still won. Kyle Orton produced more than Roethlisberger(TD's/INT's), won more games than Jay "cry baby" Cutler and is progressing as well as any QB in the NFL. That is evidence of a leader. Have you LISTENED to what Kyle Orton has said?!? Sounds like a leader to me. Unlike Jay "cheese with his whine" Cutler.

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  • Eric Fetzer
    replied
    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
    Really? You have access to all of the scouting reports of all of the NFL teams? You've spoken with coaching staffs and asked them to compare Orton and Cutler head-to-head?

    It must be really awesome to have that sort of access. Because I've never seen anyone more qualified than a beat writer claim that Cutler is better than Orton or vice-versa.

    You're basing your own personal claim that Cutler is better on his stats. Which look amazing (4,500 yds) simply because Jay was given about 150 more pass attempts than the norm for a starting QB. His completion percentage is about what is expected out of a decent starter. So is his yards per attempt and passer rating. Nothing elite or amazing there. Just solid, not exceptional.

    Kyle - while playing on a far worse Offense - was matching those numbers last season before he was hurt. He was among the best passers 4 of the first 7 weeks. His ankle injury was the only reason he didn't post far better numbers for the entire season.

    Kyle has not always been a good QB. But he has developed into one NOW and is at least on the same level as Jay Cutler. And he's still improving, now with Josh McD - who has a resume as a very good QB coach & OC with one of the best teams the NFL has ever seen. Meanwhile, Jay has been saddled with Ron "run-run-pass-punt" Turner and Pep "Let's-pretend-to-focus-on-the-basics-because-I-don't-really-have-a-clue" Hamilton. I wonder which of the two will show more improvement this season...

    :orton:
    Don't hate on the 8!
    If you really think Jay Cutler and Kyle Orton are "on the same level", you havent watched many NFL games.

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  • saphire1
    replied
    Originally posted by Orton_Backer81 View Post
    Kyle Orton is a LEADER first and foremost - the FIELD GENERAL that will lead the troops to victory!
    right, because he was sooooooo awesome as the FIELD GENERAL in leading his offense last year.

    i want that crack you're smoking. it must be so good.

    Leave a comment:


  • downinbellum
    replied
    Originally posted by Da Swerski View Post
    I can understand how watching Elway could skew your opinion on what a QB can and should do. You'll probably never have anyone close to him. Because he was IMO the best ever. Kyle Orton's record isn't a huge deal to me as a Bears fan. Rex had almost the same record, and we went to the Super Bowl with him. Orton has never threw the team on his back and willed us to wins. As you've seen a lot more of Cutler then I have, apparently he hasn't either. Though I think it's tough to judge Cutler because he was just 25 last season. Even Elway wasn't Elway at 25.

    I don't think we've seen the best out of what Cutler or Orton has to offer yet.


    Agreed. Not to say that Cutler doesn't have the tools to do it, I have no doubt he does.

    Personally I wish him all the best... but I hope he can evolve from a little girl and into a man there. He has certainly exhibited to the fans in Colorado he still needs his binky. I hope Chicago goes all Catholic School Marm on him and whips his behind into shape.

    Meanwhile I hope Kyle does his job for us...

    NECKBEARD!!!
    Last edited by downinbellum; 06-27-2009, 04:05 PM.

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  • KO8pectate
    replied
    Originally posted by Da Swerski View Post
    I can understand how watching Elway could skew your opinion on what a QB can and should do. You'll probably never have anyone close to him. Because he was IMO the best ever. Kyle Orton's record isn't a huge deal to me as a Bears fan. Rex had almost the same record, and we went to the Super Bowl with him. Orton has never threw the team on his back and willed us to wins. As you've seen a lot more of Cutler then I have, apparently he hasn't either. Though I think it's tough to judge Cutler because he was just 25 last season. Even Elway wasn't Elway at 25.

    I don't think we've seen the best out of what Cutler or Orton has to offer yet.
    lol please explain that because that sound more like fanboy BS than a tangible skill that a QB could actually be graded on.

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  • Da Swerski
    replied
    Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
    The fact is Kyle Orton and Phillip Rivers have better records than Jay Cutler, despite much hoopla from Bears fans and analysts, when IMO (which is all this is, keep in mind) all that matters for a QB is wins and losses.

    Jay Cutler is a specimen. Kyle Orton is not, and is most definitely not in the conversation with Cutler. But all that matters to me are those wins he has. The wins Cutler doesn't have.
    I can understand how watching Elway could skew your opinion on what a QB can and should do. You'll probably never have anyone close to him. Because he was IMO the best ever. Kyle Orton's record isn't a huge deal to me as a Bears fan. Rex had almost the same record, and we went to the Super Bowl with him. Orton has never threw the team on his back and willed us to wins. As you've seen a lot more of Cutler then I have, apparently he hasn't either. Though I think it's tough to judge Cutler because he was just 25 last season. Even Elway wasn't Elway at 25.

    I don't think we've seen the best out of what Cutler or Orton has to offer yet.

    Leave a comment:

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