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  • Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
    I'm sick and tired of hearing Cutler homers and analysts drool over how good Cutler is at his position, when in reality he has a losing record, the only stat that truly defines a QB's success.
    I am sad that you said this because the rest of your post was fantastic. It was based in reality while remaining positive, and why Denver fans can get excited for Orton without making out to be better then he is.

    How can anyone say the TEAM wins and losses define a QB?

    If next year a QB threw for 4,000 yards, 30 TD's, 12 INT's, and 65 COMP% but was on a 3-13 team. Would you rather have a guy who threw for 2,800 yards, 20 TD's and 15 INT's, 58 COMP% and went 11-5. What matters from the QB position is that you produce. Because that's what you can base him on. Because Cutler is obviously good enough that he took a team last year that should have been 2-14, 3-13, or 4-12 and got you within a win of the playoffs.

    Originally posted by Roddoliver View Post
    Kyle Orton in Purdue (2004): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DlbW5_fwFI

    This video shows Orton playing closer to McDaniels' offensive style. Pretty good mobility and some nice throws.
    Ya he looks more mobile in college against slower players. NFL defenses are much faster. Kyle Orton isn't a rock, but he'll rarely make plays with his feet. He's a traditional pocket passer.

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    • Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
      That's a great post.......they might each actually work better in their new systems as well.......no I'm not trying to say Orton is better, but I am saying he might thrive in a game management system, whereas Cutler thrives more in a system where he is expected to make plays.

      Make no mistake about it, he will be expected to make plays in Chicago from time to time. They didn't pay a king's ransom for him to come in and just manage games and throw the ball 18 times per contest.
      Exactly... and trading Cutler allowed the Broncos to upgrade their D a bit. Orton + Defense= a winning team
      Cutler + Defense= a winning team

      Both teams got better.

      No doubt the Bears want Cutler to go out there and make plays. They paid what they paid to get a guy who could put a team on his back every so often and win a game. A guy who could keep the defense off the field and rested so they can finish games.

      The Broncos got Orton in hopes of making their entire team better... slightly downgrade the QB position but in return get more defense to help him out. He is surrounded by enough talent so that the defense can still stay off the field and the offense will still be productive. With a better defense the whole team gets better.

      It makes sense for both teams. The Bears on offense pretty much have Forte and the TE's. Outside of that pretty weak... getting Cutler makes the whole offense a good amount better... and the defense better. The Broncos on offense were pretty strong... could afford to downgrade slightly at QB and still have a good unit. They needed defense and improved there with the trade.

      Orton doesn't need to be better than Cutler for the trade to be successful. They need to have gotten as much talent TOTAL as they gave up.
      Understand that I am a Bears fan but also that I have followed Orton's career. His ability to improve himself makes him a very easy guy to cheer for. I am here because I will continue to cheer for Orton unless his success interferes with the success of the Bears.

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      • Originally posted by Da Swerski View Post
        I am sad that you said this because the rest of your post was fantastic. It was based in reality while remaining positive, and why Denver fans can get excited for Orton without making out to be better then he is.

        How can anyone say the TEAM wins and losses define a QB?

        If next year a QB threw for 4,000 yards, 30 TD's, 12 INT's, and 65 COMP% but was on a 3-13 team. Would you rather have a guy who threw for 2,800 yards, 20 TD's and 15 INT's, 58 COMP% and went 11-5. What matters from the QB position is that you produce. Because that's what you can base him on. Because Cutler is obviously good enough that he took a team last year that should have been 2-14, 3-13, or 4-12 and got you within a win of the playoffs.


        Ya he looks more mobile in college against slower players. NFL defenses are much faster. Kyle Orton isn't a rock, but he'll rarely make plays with his feet. He's a traditional pocket passer.
        I see your point, and certainly team has a lot to do with it. You must understand that this is the DB we're talking about, I grew up watching Elway just dominate other teams with and without stellar supporting casts (i.e. a few of the teams in 80's, early 90's). But in the end of all conclusions and final discussions, I'd argue that yes, a QB is definitely defined by wins and losses, regardless of the "team" concept. I don't know why anyone can see otherwise. Brady/Manning/Elway/Favre/Aikman will all be remembered because their winning records as QB's were stellar, and to your point as well they won SB's with good supporting casts at times. Make no mistake, however, that many of those QB's carried their teams on their shoulders, something Cutler hasn't done yet. He's shown it in college, but still had a rough go about it. I mean, we saw it a few years ago when Favre passed Elway on the wins list. No expert or analyst mentioned the TEAM, they mentioned Brett Favre's career wins. That is all I'm arguing, no more no less.

        I'm simply arguing that many of the Bears fans on these boards and on air "experts" have it wrong when it comes to Jay Cutler, for now. You can't crown him the next Elway until he actually wins some games, regardless of team or not. He certainly suggests that team is of no consequence. You should've seen some of his post-game PC's last year. The guy thinks he's Elway, Marino, shaken and stirred a little bit of Favre, and many of the fans feed off that kool aid. Broncos fans have had it wrong as well, believe me. We thought he was our savior, but it just isn't true.

        The fact is Kyle Orton and Phillip Rivers have better records than Jay Cutler, despite much hoopla from Bears fans and analysts, when IMO (which is all this is, keep in mind) all that matters for a QB is wins and losses.

        Jay Cutler is a specimen. Kyle Orton is not, and is most definitely not in the conversation with Cutler. But all that matters to me are those wins he has. The wins Cutler doesn't have.
        Last edited by downinbellum; 06-27-2009, 10:12 AM.
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        The Lone Ranger

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        • Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
          The fact is Kyle Orton and Phillip Rivers have better records than Jay Cutler, despite much hoopla from Bears fans and analysts, when IMO (which is all this is, keep in mind) all that matters for a QB is wins and losses.

          Jay Cutler is a specimen. Kyle Orton is not, and is most definitely not in the conversation with Cutler. But all that matters to me are those wins he has. The wins Cutler doesn't have.
          I can understand how watching Elway could skew your opinion on what a QB can and should do. You'll probably never have anyone close to him. Because he was IMO the best ever. Kyle Orton's record isn't a huge deal to me as a Bears fan. Rex had almost the same record, and we went to the Super Bowl with him. Orton has never threw the team on his back and willed us to wins. As you've seen a lot more of Cutler then I have, apparently he hasn't either. Though I think it's tough to judge Cutler because he was just 25 last season. Even Elway wasn't Elway at 25.

          I don't think we've seen the best out of what Cutler or Orton has to offer yet.

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          • Originally posted by Da Swerski View Post
            I can understand how watching Elway could skew your opinion on what a QB can and should do. You'll probably never have anyone close to him. Because he was IMO the best ever. Kyle Orton's record isn't a huge deal to me as a Bears fan. Rex had almost the same record, and we went to the Super Bowl with him. Orton has never threw the team on his back and willed us to wins. As you've seen a lot more of Cutler then I have, apparently he hasn't either. Though I think it's tough to judge Cutler because he was just 25 last season. Even Elway wasn't Elway at 25.

            I don't think we've seen the best out of what Cutler or Orton has to offer yet.
            lol please explain that because that sound more like fanboy BS than a tangible skill that a QB could actually be graded on.
            "(Touchdowns) are the goal," Orton said. "You can run for as many yards as you want, throw for as many yards as you want, but you have to convert to seven points. I think we're going to be explosive, be dynamic, be versatile."

            "Perception is everything in this league, and a lot of times, unless you're a self-promoter, it can become negative," - Kyle Orton

            Kyle Orton Army member #83 :logo: :smug:

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            • Originally posted by Da Swerski View Post
              I can understand how watching Elway could skew your opinion on what a QB can and should do. You'll probably never have anyone close to him. Because he was IMO the best ever. Kyle Orton's record isn't a huge deal to me as a Bears fan. Rex had almost the same record, and we went to the Super Bowl with him. Orton has never threw the team on his back and willed us to wins. As you've seen a lot more of Cutler then I have, apparently he hasn't either. Though I think it's tough to judge Cutler because he was just 25 last season. Even Elway wasn't Elway at 25.

              I don't think we've seen the best out of what Cutler or Orton has to offer yet.


              Agreed. Not to say that Cutler doesn't have the tools to do it, I have no doubt he does.

              Personally I wish him all the best... but I hope he can evolve from a little girl and into a man there. He has certainly exhibited to the fans in Colorado he still needs his binky. I hope Chicago goes all Catholic School Marm on him and whips his behind into shape.

              Meanwhile I hope Kyle does his job for us...

              NECKBEARD!!!
              Last edited by downinbellum; 06-27-2009, 04:05 PM.
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              • Originally posted by Orton_Backer81 View Post
                Kyle Orton is a LEADER first and foremost - the FIELD GENERAL that will lead the troops to victory!
                right, because he was sooooooo awesome as the FIELD GENERAL in leading his offense last year.

                i want that crack you're smoking. it must be so good.

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                • Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
                  Really? You have access to all of the scouting reports of all of the NFL teams? You've spoken with coaching staffs and asked them to compare Orton and Cutler head-to-head?

                  It must be really awesome to have that sort of access. Because I've never seen anyone more qualified than a beat writer claim that Cutler is better than Orton or vice-versa.

                  You're basing your own personal claim that Cutler is better on his stats. Which look amazing (4,500 yds) simply because Jay was given about 150 more pass attempts than the norm for a starting QB. His completion percentage is about what is expected out of a decent starter. So is his yards per attempt and passer rating. Nothing elite or amazing there. Just solid, not exceptional.

                  Kyle - while playing on a far worse Offense - was matching those numbers last season before he was hurt. He was among the best passers 4 of the first 7 weeks. His ankle injury was the only reason he didn't post far better numbers for the entire season.

                  Kyle has not always been a good QB. But he has developed into one NOW and is at least on the same level as Jay Cutler. And he's still improving, now with Josh McD - who has a resume as a very good QB coach & OC with one of the best teams the NFL has ever seen. Meanwhile, Jay has been saddled with Ron "run-run-pass-punt" Turner and Pep "Let's-pretend-to-focus-on-the-basics-because-I-don't-really-have-a-clue" Hamilton. I wonder which of the two will show more improvement this season...

                  :orton:
                  Don't hate on the 8!
                  If you really think Jay Cutler and Kyle Orton are "on the same level", you havent watched many NFL games.

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                  • Originally posted by saphire1 View Post
                    right, because he was sooooooo awesome as the FIELD GENERAL in leading his offense last year.

                    i want that crack you're smoking. it must be so good.
                    Kyle Orton still won with the terrible third string wide receiver core, terrible run first/second coaching, bad O line and an overrated defense that has been aging like milk - and he still won. Kyle Orton produced more than Roethlisberger(TD's/INT's), won more games than Jay "cry baby" Cutler and is progressing as well as any QB in the NFL. That is evidence of a leader. Have you LISTENED to what Kyle Orton has said?!? Sounds like a leader to me. Unlike Jay "cheese with his whine" Cutler.

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                    • Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
                      Make no mistake, however, that many of those QB's carried their teams on their shoulders, something Cutler hasn't done yet.
                      Originally posted by Da Swerski View Post
                      Orton has never threw the team on his back and willed us to wins. As you've seen a lot more of Cutler then I have, apparently he hasn't either.
                      Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
                      lol please explain that because that sound more like fanboy BS than a tangible skill that a QB could actually be graded on.
                      My statement was in regards to the quote's above mine. While you're right there's not a stat on that. All I claimed was I've never seen it with Orton. He said he has never seen Cutler do it like he has some of the greats. What is there to explain?

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                      • Originally posted by Orton_Backer81 View Post
                        Kyle Orton still won with the terrible third string wide receiver core, terrible run first/second coaching, bad O line and an overrated defense that has been aging like milk - and he still won. Kyle Orton produced more than Roethlisberger(TD's/INT's), won more games than Jay "cry baby" Cutler and is progressing as well as any QB in the NFL. That is evidence of a leader. Have you LISTENED to what Kyle Orton has said?!? Sounds like a leader to me. Unlike Jay "cheese with his whine" Cutler.
                        Kyle Orton wasn't even the leader on the Bears offense. That was Olin Kreutz. Matt Forte was the reason the offense produced as much as it did. There was some ridiculous stat to his over usage. Did it ever occur to you that the Bears wide receivers, while lacking a star player, weren't as bad as you make them out to be? Perhaps this is how they produced? Orton only won one more game then Cutler while having a better defense.

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                        • Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
                          The Vikings DROPPED OUT OF THE BIDDING once they researched Jay a bit. Even though a decent QB is virtually the only missing piece in their otherwise very complete team. That's why they're prostituting themselves for the chance to get Brett Favre. But they certainly didn't want Jay.
                          That left Chicago, Detroit, Tampa, and Washington as interested in Jay. 4 desperate teams out of 32. That's not exactly showing a universal agreement that Jay is an elite QB.

                          To claim that other teams weren't breaking down the down to get Orton is asinine at best. THE BEARS DIDN'T "SHOP" ORTON. Both Lovie and Ron Turner repeatedly stated that Kyle was to be the starter next season. Other teams didn't even see Kyle as available, so why would they publicly display interest in acquiring him? I mean, there weren't teams talking about trading for Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Philip Rivers either. Does it logically follow that they must all suck?
                          Can you provide proof of the bolded? Since you are the one who asked someone else if they talked to all the GM's and writers. And several websites reported 10 teams were after Jay and inquired. If the Bears shopped Orton they'd get a 4th at best.

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                          • Originally posted by r1terrell23 View Post
                            Can you provide proof of the bolded? Since you are the one who asked someone else if they talked to all the GM's and writers. And several websites reported 10 teams were after Jay and inquired. If the Bears shopped Orton they'd get a 4th at best.
                            Report: Vikings Pulled Out Of Cutler Talks Last Month
                            Posted by Mike Florio on March 25, 2009, 10:42 p.m. EDT

                            As the effort continues to identify teams that might be interested in trading for Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler, one of the franchises presumably on the short list reportedly opted to bow out last month.

                            According to Charles Robinson of Yahoo! Sports, the Vikings were involved in three-team talks that would have brought Cutler to Minnesota.

                            But the Vikings bowed out because, as Robinson writes, “some elements in the Minnesota coaching staff weren’t entirely sold on Cutler.”

                            It’s not surprising. Vikings coach Brad Childress had a front-row seat in Philly for the delicate genius known as Donovan McNabb. And then, upon arriving in Minnesota, Childress and incumbent quarterback Daunte Culpepper got into a nasty pissing match before Culpepper was traded.

                            So Childress surely wouldn’t want Cutler.


                            And if the Vikings felt that way last month, they undoubtedly feel even more strongly about it now, given the extent to which Cutler has exposed the flesh of his rump to the rest of the league.

                            http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/...ks-last-month/
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                            • Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
                              . Brady/Manning/Elway/Favre/Aikman will all be remembered because their winning records as QB's were stellar, and to your point as well they won SB's with good supporting casts at times. Make no mistake, however, that many of those QB's carried their teams on their shoulders, something Cutler hasn't done yet.
                              None of those qbs have a winning career record when their defense was ranked 20th or lower. No qb in the history of the nfl has a winning record when their defense is ranked 20th or lower.

                              Last year denver had the 31st best defense. the 32nd best defense went 0-16. the 30th best defense went 2-14. The fact that we went 8-8 is because we had an excellent offense with a top 5 qb in the nfl (those arent my words, there John Elway's)

                              Cutler carried this team last year. No qb in the history of the game would have had a winning record over the last two years with a defense as bad as ours. History proves that to be true.
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                              • Originally posted by jdubv724 View Post

                                But the Vikings bowed out because, as Robinson writes, “some elements in the Minnesota coaching staff weren’t entirely sold on Cutler.”
                                [/B]
                                It’s not surprising. Vikings coach Brad Childress had a front-row seat in Philly for the delicate genius known as Donovan McNabb. And then, upon arriving in Minnesota, Childress and incumbent quarterback Daunte Culpepper got into a nasty pissing match before Culpepper was traded.

                                So Childress surely wouldn’t want Cutler.

                                This kept Minny from giving 2 first rounders for Cutler....but give them a choice between Cutler and orton and theyd take cutler everytime!
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