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Article - "The Myth of the Short Cornerback"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by OTF View Post
    Even Charger fans have more realistic view of the AFC West!

    link
    My question is this, after the Broncos finish the season 5-11 will McDaniel be fired?
    no.

    JMD gets a mulligan 1st year.
    The beatings will continue until morale improves....

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by OTF View Post
      Even Charger fans have more realistic view of the AFC West!

      link
      My question is this, after the Broncos finish the season 5-11 will McDaniel be fired?
      Like the Broncos, Chargers fans at least have something to look forward to that isnt being a total embarassment.

      link My question is this, after the Raiders finish 2-14, will Al finally be committed to the asylum?
      sigpic

      I adopt andrewmlb.

      Comment


      • #33
        I was really glad to see this post....

        Because it only further validates why

        Jack Williams will shine this year....

        Hmmm, I guess everyone forgot that Jack is 5'9" but has run a 4.29 forty (junior day pro day)... He did run a 4.21 twice two weeks later...

        He has benched 391 lbs. and 225 x 19 at the combine.. He has a 41'6" vertical and has jumped as high as 46" junior in high school.

        He led the nation in forced fumbles his junior year in college.. He has 13 picks himself and only two other corners had more tackles their college career the year he came out, Tracy Porter and Antoine Cason.

        Alphonso will prolly be a good player, but just wait and see what Jack Mutha Effen Williams gonna do.
        Adopt a Child and Foster a Home
        YES it is that EASY!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Papa-pwn View Post
          Well first things first, your WRS suck lol.

          They don't scare anyone.

          WR height don't mean anything.

          You saw what little 5'11" Eddie Royal did to you right?

          Little 5'9"3/4 Alphonso smith will have the same kind of game, just defensively.

          And second, is the only thing Smith has to improve on a lot is tackling, we're in good shape.

          Good form tackling can be taught in one day of training camp.
          did i miss something? because i could have sworn that last time i checked smith was suppose to be a really good tackler.

          and i think to many people here are confusing height with physicality. if you look at the best big WRs in the league, they aren't exactly toothpicks. i mean sure, we've been treated to years of watching fitzgerald and moss supposedly out jump shorter CBs, etc. but how many of those plays were the perfect scenario where the ball was just over the reach of the CB so that larry and randy could just snag the ball down from right behind them? if you look at those plays, i think that more of them involve the recievers simply out muscling the CBs getting in front of them, and creating space.
          disclaimer: if the above post appears to contain outrageously illogical content, ITS PROBABLY SARCASM

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by OTF View Post
            Please see the videos below and tell me a few more inches wouldn't have helped. Heyward-bey is not considered a great WR by any stretch but he shows in this videos that height is more then a myth.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzgh6...eature=related

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxiAb...eature=related
            u know what's great about this vid??? It shows , Heyward Bey's 4.3 time didn't do jack against Phonzo...cuz when the pads are on it's a different story...this shows me Smith doesn't get too slowed down with the pads on and is just as fast as the.....Heyward Bey speedster

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Aeshun1 View Post
              Because it only further validates why

              Jack Williams will shine this year....

              Hmmm, I guess everyone forgot that Jack is 5'9" but has run a 4.29 forty (junior day pro day)... He did run a 4.21 twice two weeks later...
              Until you pointed it out I didn't realize that half of the CBs on the Broncos are under 5"10. Guess this theory will be put to the test.

              Originally posted by broncos1997 View Post
              did i miss something? because i could have sworn that last time i checked smith was suppose to be a really good tackler.
              The games I watched and every scouting report says that Smith is not a good tackler. I look forward to the McFadden and Bush running plays going right at him. We will see if he is a good tackler or not.

              Originally posted by #24 Next Champ View Post
              u know what's great about this vid??? It shows , Heyward Bey's 4.3 time didn't do jack against Phonzo...cuz when the pads are on it's a different story...this shows me Smith doesn't get too slowed down with the pads on and is just as fast as the.....Heyward Bey speedster
              So catching a forty yard catch is not doing "jack"? Fact is that Heyward-Bey slowed down even running backwards and Smith struggled to keep up. A forty yard catch is a forty yard catch and with a decent throw by the QB this play would have looked exactly like this one.
              sigpic

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              • #37
                Originally posted by OTF View Post
                Until you pointed it out I didn't realize that half of the CBs on the Broncos are under 5"10. Guess this theory will be put to the test.
                Games against the Raiders arent a test. More like a light workout.
                sigpic

                I adopt andrewmlb.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
                  This article is flawed in my opinion, though I like it's premise...not judging a CB purely on his size. However, it is not an objective article, but rather a fan fluff piece.

                  We just watched Larry Fitzgerald outjump CB after CB last postseason as the Cardinals made their run to the Superbowl. And, as the article has mentioned, Randy Moss has been doing it for years. But, the article likes to claim Moss is the anomaly, that's incorrect. Plaxxico Burress has been a famous jump ball guy his entire career, when he was released, Eli Manning begged for another WR with size to be signed/drafted. Ben Roethlisberger did the same thing the year before. There are plenty more such as Andre Johnson, Marques Colston, Vincent Jackson, Braylon Edwards, TJ Houshmanzadeh, Calvin Johnson, and even Terrell Owens. If we move to Tight Ends, Tony Gonzalez and Antonio Gates both became famous for out-jumping opponents for the ball, especially in the red zone, and much was made of their previous basketball experience. And their teams threw that jump ball an awful lot over the years.

                  The reality is that height and the jump ball is a prominent aspect of football as we know it. Darrell Green might have been great in the past, but its a fact that athlete's are now taller, have more mass, and are faster than the athlete's from the previous century. WRs also jump higher now among other athletic measureables.

                  The reality is that Alphonso Smith, or Darrell Green in his prime, would not be able to defend today's 6'2 or taller WR/TE with a decent vertical. What's more though, is they will not be asked to do so in the red zone, which is where the jump ball is most commonly displayed. Now, on a 50 yard fly pattern? There are so many more variables at stake for a "bomb" that rarely does it become a jump ball, though it happens enough to not be rare. Fans of football watched Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald put on a clinic concerning the jump ball last year, while Randy Moss and Braylon Edwards did so the year before. When a short CB with average vertical ability finds himself playing across from one of these types of WRs, the team has to give him help over the top from a Safety with size. Now, in regards to 5-10 yard out patterns and slants? Those are more timing related with YAC a concern so a jump ball is not often sought, but on 3rd down, an out pattern to move the sticks is another common sight to see a shorter CB picked on. We'll need to be prepared for that.

                  And in the end, that is the end. Alphonso's lack of height and questionable vertical ability (32 inch vertical which is not impressive for a CB) mean he will never be asked to match up with a jump ball calibur receiver/TE. Does this mean he can't be a #1 or #2 CB? No. It just means when we play a receiver with those types of skills, he'll need help over the top, or doubling in the red zone. It's an annoyance, and it's definitely a detriment. The fact Smith only has 31 inch arms doesn't help either. But the guy has talent and against most NFL WRs, he can match up nicely. His intangibles and ball skills are incredible. But the article remains a fluff piece. His 5'8 height alone hurts him, and it greatly limits his use against jump balls to taller, more athletic athletes, but the big problem is that Smith isn't that fast (4.53 40), he can't jump that high, he isn't very strong (13 reps), he has average length arms at best, AND he's short. However, if you do play him as a pure slot nickelback, all of that is erased because he's going against smaller, quicker WRs and that's where he shines.

                  I loved the Alphonso Smith draft trade and selection. You have to have a dynamic nickelback in the NFL these days, and he can easily start outside as well if you give him some help against certain types of WRs and offenses. But to dismiss the lack of height and other physical attributes is not being objective. Smith is a flawed CB, and he has limits, just like everyone else. The tall WR and jump ball is absolutely a big one. Luckily, and the underlying point throughout the article, playing CB in the NFL requires much more than being able to defend tall WRs. Also, and again, there are studies that show teams are in their nickel packages over 50% of the time. That means the nickelback is a defensive starter in reality. A key position. As far as ideal nickelbacks go, Smith is the prototypes. *If* that's all he ever is, having a top nickelback when the Superbowl likely goes through New England and Wes Welker, is not a bad thing at all. Identify Smith's strengths, accept his flaws, and lets not try to gloss over either.
                  Buzz kill MuG.......






                  You have a valid point. I think Smith is actually 5'9.5" however. I'm pretty sure he's not 5'8", which would make him closer to 5'10". That's still not very tall, and doesn't necessarily detract from the point you made.

                  I'm persuaded that his forty time is faster than what he was clocked at during the Combine. His scouting report emphasized straightline speed and excellent closing speed.

                  I am a little surprised that he only had 13 reps in the BP because the dude has nicely sculpted arms.



                  Jack Williams is one I would like to see play more. He's about the same height as Smith and has very good speed with a 39" vertical. That kind of vertical can negate just about any advantage a taller receiver would have, with the exception of a few taller receivers that you have mentioned which also have impressive verticals (Johnson, Moss, and Fitzgerald).
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                  Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by McSmashie View Post
                    Games against the Raiders arent a test. More like a light workout.
                    Funny... You are a missed FG away from losing 3 out of the last 4 games against the Raiders.
                    sigpic

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by OTF View Post
                      Funny... You are a missed FG away from losing 3 out of the last 4 games against the Raiders.
                      And you are a blocked FG away from losing 10 out of the last 12 games against us.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
                        This article is flawed in my opinion, though I like it's premise...not judging a CB purely on his size. However, it is not an objective article, but rather a fan fluff piece.

                        We just watched Larry Fitzgerald outjump CB after CB last postseason as the Cardinals made their run to the Superbowl. And, as the article has mentioned, Randy Moss has been doing it for years. But, the article likes to claim Moss is the anomaly, that's incorrect. Plaxxico Burress has been a famous jump ball guy his entire career, when he was released, Eli Manning begged for another WR with size to be signed/drafted. Ben Roethlisberger did the same thing the year before. There are plenty more such as Andre Johnson, Marques Colston, Vincent Jackson, Braylon Edwards, TJ Houshmanzadeh, Calvin Johnson, and even Terrell Owens. If we move to Tight Ends, Tony Gonzalez and Antonio Gates both became famous for out-jumping opponents for the ball, especially in the red zone, and much was made of their previous basketball experience. And their teams threw that jump ball an awful lot over the years.

                        The reality is that height and the jump ball is a prominent aspect of football as we know it. Darrell Green might have been great in the past, but its a fact that athlete's are now taller, have more mass, and are faster than the athlete's from the previous century. WRs also jump higher now among other athletic measureables.

                        The reality is that Alphonso Smith, or Darrell Green in his prime, would not be able to defend today's 6'2 or taller WR/TE with a decent vertical. What's more though, is they will not be asked to do so in the red zone, which is where the jump ball is most commonly displayed. Now, on a 50 yard fly pattern? There are so many more variables at stake for a "bomb" that rarely does it become a jump ball, though it happens enough to not be rare. Fans of football watched Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald put on a clinic concerning the jump ball last year, while Randy Moss and Braylon Edwards did so the year before. When a short CB with average vertical ability finds himself playing across from one of these types of WRs, the team has to give him help over the top from a Safety with size. Now, in regards to 5-10 yard out patterns and slants? Those are more timing related with YAC a concern so a jump ball is not often sought, but on 3rd down, an out pattern to move the sticks is another common sight to see a shorter CB picked on. We'll need to be prepared for that.

                        And in the end, that is the end. Alphonso's lack of height and questionable vertical ability (32 inch vertical which is not impressive for a CB) mean he will never be asked to match up with a jump ball calibur receiver/TE. Does this mean he can't be a #1 or #2 CB? No. It just means when we play a receiver with those types of skills, he'll need help over the top, or doubling in the red zone. It's an annoyance, and it's definitely a detriment. The fact Smith only has 31 inch arms doesn't help either. But the guy has talent and against most NFL WRs, he can match up nicely. His intangibles and ball skills are incredible. But the article remains a fluff piece. His 5'8 height alone hurts him, and it greatly limits his use against jump balls to taller, more athletic athletes, but the big problem is that Smith isn't that fast (4.53 40), he can't jump that high, he isn't very strong (13 reps), he has average length arms at best, AND he's short. However, if you do play him as a pure slot nickelback, all of that is erased because he's going against smaller, quicker WRs and that's where he shines.

                        I loved the Alphonso Smith draft trade and selection. You have to have a dynamic nickelback in the NFL these days, and he can easily start outside as well if you give him some help against certain types of WRs and offenses. But to dismiss the lack of height and other physical attributes is not being objective. Smith is a flawed CB, and he has limits, just like everyone else. The tall WR and jump ball is absolutely a big one. Luckily, and the underlying point throughout the article, playing CB in the NFL requires much more than being able to defend tall WRs. Also, and again, there are studies that show teams are in their nickel packages over 50% of the time. That means the nickelback is a defensive starter in reality. A key position. As far as ideal nickelbacks go, Smith is the prototypes. *If* that's all he ever is, having a top nickelback when the Superbowl likely goes through New England and Wes Welker, is not a bad thing at all. Identify Smith's strengths, accept his flaws, and lets not try to gloss over either.
                        Completely agree with you point of view. Hieght is not a attribute to underestimate for an NFL CB. Its a big deal.

                        You speak of how important a nickel CB is for a denfense. Do you think that Alphoso Smith is worthy of a 1st round pick based on his skill set and team need?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I just posted this in the smack thread in response to a Raider fan.
                          http://forums.denverbroncos.com/show...3&postcount=62

                          As for his height and size, what are you trying to insinuate? He is listed at 5'9"!
                          Eric Allen -5'10"

                          Ronde Barber - 5'10"

                          DeAngelo Hall 5'10"

                          Sam Madison, Ty Law, Walt Harris, Al Harris, Deltha Oneal, Rod Woodson- 5'11

                          Darrell Green 5'9"

                          A CB/DB just needs to play big! Think of Darrent Williams he played big and he was 5'8"!
                          Many more were the same height!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by OTF View Post
                            So catching a forty yard catch is not doing "jack"? Fact is that Heyward-Bey slowed down even running backwards and Smith struggled to keep up. A forty yard catch is a forty yard catch and with a decent throw by the QB this play would have looked exactly like this one.

                            That's because Smith played the ball badly, he should've had an int, I would've caught dat ****, but I've also misplayed a couple, never in a game haha thank god, but I know how it is, sometimes you just misjudge it, but point bein, he ran stride for stride, look at the speed, I don't see any seperation, till smith started to play the ball, and messed up...

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by dizzolve View Post
                              no.

                              JMD gets a mulligan 1st year.
                              I think mCD would have gotten a mulligan year, but he potentially lost it with his head scratching decisions. If the following happens- Mcd is done after one.

                              1. Denver goes 4-12 or worse
                              2. Cutler gets the bears into the playoffs or makes the pro bowl.
                              3. Seattle ends up with a top 5 pick.

                              I dont see how even those with the massive mcd man crushes could not call for him to be fired if this happens.
                              sigpic


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
                                I think mCD would have gotten a mulligan year, but he potentially lost it with his head scratching decisions. If the following happens- Mcd is done after one.

                                1. Denver goes 4-12 or worse
                                2. Cutler gets the bears into the playoffs or makes the pro bowl.
                                3. Seattle ends up with a top 5 pick.

                                I dont see how even those with the massive mcd man crushes could not call for him to be fired if this happens.
                                1- Denver goes 10-6
                                2- Cutler sets and NFL record in INT's and demands a trade
                                3- Chicago ends up 4-12 or worse. Denver gets 1st pick in the draft

                                I don't see how even those with massive cutler man crushes, could not see that coming with his head-scratching decisions on the field
                                sigpic
                                I've started with almost nothing and still got most of it

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