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  • #31
    Originally posted by Roddoliver View Post
    I might be getting away from reality, but I would like to see this front seven:

    Crowder - Williams - Davis - Ayers
    Baker - Fields - Thomas
    i think that could well be the starting D, i think Dumervil may rotate will Crowder and would like to see Woodyard in there this year.

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    • #32
      The below are my thoughts from several weeks ago, I feel confident in them.


      As of now, Crowder is starting at LOLB, Ayers is starting at ROLB, Dumervil is backing up Ayers at ROLB, Reid is backing up Crowder at LOLB, and Moss is backing up both sides as the 3rd string OLB.

      This is on base running downs. And it makes sense that Dumervil would not be starting on running downs as he's horrible against the run, while Ayers is considered a strong run stuffer. Crowder also has the size and athleticism to be solid against the run on the strong side.

      Now, I think we can assume things will change for passing downs. I expect Ayers would slide up to RDE and Dumervil would come in to pass rush as ROLB. That would give us a much more dynamic pass rushing front. Crowder probably stays in on the Left side, but Darrell Reid might come in to play LDE. The Right side rotation with Ayers and Dumervil (and Peterson at RDE on running downs) seems relatively set. The Left side is up in the air pretty good. Crowder looks like a lock to start, Moss and Reid are definitely backing up at LOLB, but LDE and any type of pass rush substitution is unknown. All we know is that Nolan traditionally has used NT-type guys at LDE. That makes me think Marcus Thomas and Chris Baker will play on that side, and I'll assume that Reid would come in on obvious passing situations to rush.

      Regardless, Dumervil is what he has always been...a pass rush specialist that is not an ideal starter because he wears down easily and sucks against the run. With Ayers, I don't think we have to force starting Dumervil any longer, and I think we'll use him just like Nolan used Parys Haralson last year, whom is the exact same height/size/style of player, whom excelled as SF's best pass rush specialist with double digit sacks.



      Overall though, I like our defense, and it seems pretty locked in. We know our starting secondary, and it's good. We have quality depth throughout as well. Our ILB corps is locked in, and the OLB corps has come into focus pretty strongly now, not that we had a lot of options anyway. We are deep and talented throughout at LB. We know Peterson and Fields are starting at RDE and NT. We know Ayers will play some RDE on passing downs. I think it's safe to assume Thomas or Powell will be backing up Fields at NT. The only position on the entire defense that is up in the air is LDE, and since Nolan traditionally has liked heavy LDEs in the 315-330 range, that only leaves Thomas, Powell, and Baker as realistic options. And the fact that all three can chip in at NT as well probably locks them into the roster. We will only carry 5-6 D-linemen, and Ayers and Reid are being counted as LBs, so to me, that means we know our D-line already (Peterson, Fields, Thomas, Powell, Baker, and possibly RDE McBean). And if that is our starting D-line, I like it alot. I think we can assume our starting defense now for the most part, and I think we'll be a very good defense this season to the surprise of many, though we might start off slow.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
        The below are my thoughts from several weeks ago, I feel confident in them.
        I agree that we are going to suprise some folks with our defense.

        The interesting thing to me will be to see which of these young guys are going to step up and suprise...

        Powell?

        Woodyard?

        Crowder?

        Can we hope to get anything out of Moss?

        There are alot of interesting young guys in the mix, and since we should be much better running the ball, and on special teams, I see the Broncos as a definite darkhorse team most are over looking.

        Under your scenario, that probably means Dumervil walks in free agency, so the Broncos will need to add some depth at OLB next offseason with the release of Boss Bailey, and the uncertainty surrounding Crowder.

        One player I think is going to end up making the final cut is Rulon Davis. At 6'5"-281, with his intensity and work ethic, as well as the fact he is more mature physically and emotionally, I think he will be the backup to Peterson.

        Overall though, I am excited to see how it develops.
        Last edited by MindField; 07-05-2009, 08:04 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
          Agreed; I think our front 7 is going to surprise a lot of people this year.
          I agree - I think the difference in this year's outlook is the number of potentially good players we have, the attacking philosphy and the coaching staff. There is potential for this to be an exciting defense. :go:

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
            Agreed; I think our front 7 is going to surprise a lot of people this year.
            I dont know how you could expect this. Our talent level (other than Ayers) hasnt improved. Scheme isnt going to make that big of a difference. If anything, swirtching to a new scheme will make it harder for the front 7 to perform.

            You can cross your fingers and yell jinx too, but it isnt going to change the fact that mcd basically ignored he biggest weakness on the team he took over.

            I hope I am wrong....but usually I am not.
            sigpic


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            • #36
              Originally posted by Pura Vida View Post
              I dont know how you could expect this. Our talent level (other than Ayers) hasnt improved. Scheme isnt going to make that big of a difference. If anything, swirtching to a new scheme will make it harder for the front 7 to perform.

              You can cross your fingers and yell jinx too, but it isnt going to change the fact that mcd basically ignored he biggest weakness on the team he took over.

              I hope I am wrong....but usually I am not.
              I believe you are . . . to what degree, I know not, but several developments
              would seem to indicate so.

              First, some of last year's linebackers have hit the road and been replaced. I am
              going to venture that the coaches aren't interested in lateral moves, and they
              surely don't want a downgrade of talent. So the exodus of Winborn, Green,
              et al. and the infusion of Davis, Ayers (as you mentioned), et al. have to
              represent an upgrade.

              Second, a better job fit can have the same effect as an upgrade in talent.
              All the sudden, Crowder is making some noise, even though he barely saw
              action last year. We're hearing things about Dumervil, and reports are they're
              looking for big things from D.J. in his new position. Some of last year's DTs are
              expecting better things now as DEs.

              Several intangibles are looking good. The backfield has been significantly
              upgraded, and that means better support for the front seven. And, while you
              are partially correct in your comment regarding scheme, if there is talent, then
              scheme does make a difference, as well as play-calling.

              As I mentioned, I do believe there is an upgrade. I believe the defense will be
              better this year. How much better . . . well, we'll see . . .

              -----

              Comment


              • #37
                Well, Powell is new since he did not play at all in 2008. Baker is new, a 325 DT that had 62 tackles (16.5 for loss) and 8.5 sacks in 2008. McBean came from Pittsburgh so he knows the 3-4. Yea, he was cut, so what? They have a great line. And young players can always evolve. Ronald Fields is new, he was a backup but has experience in Nolan's 3-4. Not to mention the dark horses like Askew. In the end, we could have a pretty different front seven, with up to 4 players that never played for the Broncos before.
                sigpic

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Roddoliver View Post
                  In the end, we could have a pretty different front seven, with up to 4 players that never played for the Broncos before.
                  To that you can add the DEs from the previous split-front/4-3 D who are now OLBs (i.e., Crowder, Dumervil and Moss). That's definitely new for them.

                  We also expect three of the four starters in the secondary to be new. Add to that Champ Bailey who was out for most of '08.

                  We've never seen DJ Williams play ILB in a 50/3-4 D.

                  Even the DL will be playing different positions. Big difference between 3 tech. and 5 tech., or 3 tech. to NT in a 50/3-4 D.

                  Even though we may see Thomas, Williams, Crowder and Bailey start against Cincy, it really is a completely new D. New coaches, scheme, calls ... a new D.
                  "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
                    The below are my thoughts from several weeks ago, I feel confident in them.

                    Not to be off topic, MUG, but what exactly is our secondary looking like going into training camp? I've seen reports from Sporting News that McBath might be at that FS spot, over Hill and Barrett.

                    I've also heard on here that JMFW has Phons (and Bell) beat right now for that third CB position.

                    What do you think?
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                    • #40
                      I know you didn't ask me ...

                      Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
                      Not to be off topic, MUG, but what exactly is our secondary looking like going into training camp? I've seen reports from Sporting News that McBath might be at that FS spot, over Hill and Barrett.

                      I've also heard on here that JMFW has Phons (and Bell) beat right now for that third CB position.

                      What do you think?
                      ... but, if you don't mind, I'll take a stab at it.

                      TC, preseason scrimmages and games are when these things are sorted out. When the pads go on and the hitting begins is when the coaches really find out.

                      Sounds like the plan was to have an experienced secondary consisting of Bailey, Goodman, Dawkins and Hill. There is quite a promising group of young guys behind them.

                      Barrett proved last year that he's a better SS than FS. Even though he had a pick while at FS, his single coverage of Tony Gonzalez showed his strong-safetyness.

                      Bruton might be able to play both SS and FS. DJ Johnson may be a FS as well as a CB. Their versatility helps them.

                      Denver is lucky to have Smith, Williams and Bell behind Bailey and Goodman as well as having Barrett, McBath and Bruton behind Dawkins and Hill.
                      "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by downinbellum View Post
                        Not to be off topic, MUG, but what exactly is our secondary looking like going into training camp? I've seen reports from Sporting News that McBath might be at that FS spot, over Hill and Barrett.

                        I've also heard on here that JMFW has Phons (and Bell) beat right now for that third CB position.

                        What do you think?

                        I share all of SamParnell's thoughts concerning the secondary. As for what I perceive the situation heading into training camp....

                        The vets are going to start over the rooks, that's a no-brainer. Now, at some point during the year, we could see the rooks make a play to overtake them, but personally, barring injury, I see Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, and Bailey as the starters the entire season.

                        Now, in regards to nickelback duties, Alphonso has to play. He's a natural nickelback, and while Jack Williams also is a natural nickelback, Smith appears to have more natural playmaking ability and certainly is tied to McDaniels due to the draft day trade. McD *has* to play him regardless of how Jack Williams does. What is notable though is that Jack wasn't effective at all last season, so, while physically gifted, he appears to be missing the mental commitment and/or personality that McD might prefer. And we do know that Alphonso has leadership and work ethic. Plus, Champ's contract enters it's last season next year and the cost is around 15 million, this might be his last year with us, especially if he struggles or is injured again. Alphonso is probably the future at his position, so we have to get him ready now just in case.

                        Most teams keep 9-10 defensive backs, we're right in that mix. Bailey, Goodman, Smith, Dawkins, Hill, McBath, and Bruton are 7 locks. Jack Williams, Josh Bell, Domonique Johnson, and Josh Barrett are fighting for 2-3 slots, and at least 2 of them will be at CB. I'd guess Williams and Bell round out the CB depth, Johnson goes the PS, and Barrett is on the bubble, I think the odds are we don't keep him. Bruton is essentially the exact same player.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
                          I share all of SamParnell's thoughts concerning the secondary. As for what I perceive the situation heading into training camp....

                          The vets are going to start over the rooks, that's a no-brainer. Now, at some point during the year, we could see the rooks make a play to overtake them, but personally, barring injury, I see Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, and Bailey as the starters the entire season.

                          Now, in regards to nickelback duties, Alphonso has to play. He's a natural nickelback, and while Jack Williams also is a natural nickelback, Smith appears to have more natural playmaking ability and certainly is tied to McDaniels due to the draft day trade. McD *has* to play him regardless of how Jack Williams does. What is notable though is that Jack wasn't effective at all last season, so, while physically gifted, he appears to be missing the mental commitment and/or personality that McD might prefer. And we do know that Alphonso has leadership and work ethic. Plus, Champ's contract enters it's last season next year and the cost is around 15 million, this might be his last year with us, especially if he struggles or is injured again. Alphonso is probably the future at his position, so we have to get him ready now just in case.

                          Most teams keep 9-10 defensive backs, we're right in that mix. Bailey, Goodman, Smith, Dawkins, Hill, McBath, and Bruton are 7 locks. Jack Williams, Josh Bell, Domonique Johnson, and Josh Barrett are fighting for 2-3 slots, and at least 2 of them will be at CB. I'd guess Williams and Bell round out the CB depth, Johnson goes the PS, and Barrett is on the bubble, I think the odds are we don't keep him. Bruton is essentially the exact same player.
                          I completely DIS-agree with your assessment of Josh Barrett.

                          I think he is a completely unique hybrid player that can play not only some safety, but also some LB as well.

                          You are absolutley discounting his ability to cover TE's, which is huge, and is well documented in his performance against Tony Gonzalez and others last season...and that was as a completely inexperienced player.

                          Barrett just has natural cover abilities that cannot be ignored, and should be dramatically improved this season.

                          At 6'2 1/2" and at around 228 lbs, he is an incredible athlere, and his best football is clearly ahead of him.

                          I will be absolutely shocked if Josh Barrett does not play a major role in the pass defense next season.

                          Also, Josh Bell has already beaten out Jack Williams once, I don't see why he can't do it again.
                          Last edited by MindField; 07-05-2009, 01:00 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
                            I share all of SamParnell's thoughts concerning the secondary. As for what I perceive the situation heading into training camp....

                            The vets are going to start over the rooks, that's a no-brainer. Now, at some point during the year, we could see the rooks make a play to overtake them, but personally, barring injury, I see Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, and Bailey as the starters the entire season.

                            Now, in regards to nickelback duties, Alphonso has to play. He's a natural nickelback, and while Jack Williams also is a natural nickelback, Smith appears to have more natural playmaking ability and certainly is tied to McDaniels due to the draft day trade. McD *has* to play him regardless of how Jack Williams does. What is notable though is that Jack wasn't effective at all last season, so, while physically gifted, he appears to be missing the mental commitment and/or personality that McD might prefer. And we do know that Alphonso has leadership and work ethic. Plus, Champ's contract enters it's last season next year and the cost is around 15 million, this might be his last year with us, especially if he struggles or is injured again. Alphonso is probably the future at his position, so we have to get him ready now just in case.

                            Most teams keep 9-10 defensive backs, we're right in that mix. Bailey, Goodman, Smith, Dawkins, Hill, McBath, and Bruton are 7 locks. Jack Williams, Josh Bell, Domonique Johnson, and Josh Barrett are fighting for 2-3 slots, and at least 2 of them will be at CB. I'd guess Williams and Bell round out the CB depth, Johnson goes the PS, and Barrett is on the bubble, I think the odds are we don't keep him. Bruton is essentially the exact same player.
                            This was a nice analysis on your part, and it makes sense for the most part.

                            I would have to agree with Mindfield, however, in Barrett's case. As you
                            wrote about him, I thought back to his ability to smother TEs. At safety, he is
                            almost the size of a linebacker and, outside Champ, is probably the best
                            natural athlete in the secondary. He also shows the best 40 time in the
                            secondary, including among the CBs.

                            Barrett was awfully raw, coming into the league last year. But he showed
                            marked improvement as the season wore on. He still has a long way to go, I'm
                            sure, but I see a substantial upside to him.

                            That's the way I see it. But then, I have been high on a player before, only to
                            see him abruptly cut.

                            -----

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I tend not to think Bell getting playing time over Jack Williams last year meant anything. The coaches did not do a good job of evaluating the talent we had on the roster last year in the secondary.

                              That, of course, is my arm-chair QB analysis. It just seemed like they waited way too long to insert Barrett and Jack Williams when the others in front of them were so underwhelming in their performance.
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                              Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

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                              • #45
                                I understand both of you, Mindfield and TopScribe, and you make good points as always. My problem with Barrett is that we drafted David Bruton whom is the exact same player in every conceivable way minus the knee injuries. And Bruton is a McDaniels draft pick, he has no loyalty to Barrett, whom was accused by his coaches at Arizona of being lazy and a malcontent his Senior year (if I recall correctly. If not, I believe Top is well informed about Arizona and can pinpoint what his issues really were alledged to be).

                                But here's the deal. Most NFL teams will keep 4 Safeties and 5 CBs. That frees them up to carry another player at another roster slot, maybe in our case, another LB like Lee Robinson or an extra D-linemen or return specialist.

                                I think Barrett is in the mix, but I see little purpose in drafting David Bruton if we were high on Barrett. That's my problem. They are the same player, with the same strengths, that play the same position. McD drafted Bruton in the 4th. Based on *that*, I'm not sure Barrett makes the roster. I do think he's on the bubble though, competing with a few others for that final roster spot. His main competition might be Domonique Johnson, whom as mentioned earlier, could be a 5th CB and a 5th Safety, while helping on special teams. Johnson combined with Bruton makes more sense to me due to his versatility, than Barrett.

                                As for Rulon Davis, I can't imagine he makes the team. He needs to get bigger for a full time DE in the 3-4. A year on the PS is almost a lock in my opinion. I think Pedescleaux has more upside, but he's raw and probably gets the PS as well. I like both players alot. I just like them as NFL contributors a year from now much more.





                                When I break down the entire roster, I think we have 2 roster spots to play with. I see 3 QBs, 3 TEs, 9 O-linemen, 4 RB/FBs, and 6 WRs on offense, which is 25 players, and 3 players for special teams, so 28 total, leaving 25 for defense.

                                Out of that 25, we know that the following 18 players are locks:

                                DL - Fields, Peterson, Thomas
                                Hybrids - Ayers, Reid, Crowder, Dumervil
                                LB - Williams, Davis, Larson, Woodyard
                                CB - Bailey, Goodman, Smith
                                S - Dawkins, Hill, McBath, Bruton

                                Which leaves 7 slots. At least two will come at CB, so that leaves 5. At least two will come on the DL, so that leaves 3. It's very likely we'll carry a 6th D-linemen, so the odds suggest that'll take up another slot, leaving 2. If we keep Jarvis Moss, which seems likely, that takes up another slot. Now just one roster spot is left.

                                If we decide to keep Ryan Torain, Darius Walker, or Marquez Branson as a 5th RB/FB, than Josh Barrett doesn't make the roster.

                                If we decide to keep an extra LB such as Lee Robinson, Nick Greison, or Mario Haggan, than Josh Barrett doesn't make the roster.

                                If we decide to keep a hybrid CB/S, such as DJ Johnson, than Barrett doesn't make the roster.

                                If we keep a 7th WR, like NE did last season, than Barrett doesn't make the roster.

                                If we decide to keep a 7th D-linemen, such as Pedescleaux, Davis, Clemons, or another team's cut, than Barrett doesn't make the roster.

                                If we decide to keep a pure return specialist, than Barrett doesn't make the roster.

                                However, if we choose to keep a 5th Safety, Barrett does make the roster, but all these other players likely do not.


                                So, I think he's far from a sure thing, and squarely on the bubble. He has to show he's far superior to David Bruton to warrant foregoing all these other options.

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