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  • #31
    OK look at it this way. They apparently felt that the players on the roster. Peterson, Thomas, Powell, Clemons, and the ones they signed like Fields and McBean had the potential to adequately handle the positions on the line. This is an unknown but there is reason to believe they can be decent. And if you buy the theory that it takes 3 years to develop a D-lineman then this could be the breakout year for Thomas.

    On the other hand, the secondary was a known disaster. It absolutely had to be addressed. There had to be more options at OLB as well. In comes Ayers.

    I think if you look at Powell, a great college run stuffer, and Baker, considered 3rd or 4th round talent, you have a pretty solid infusion of new front line players. The class of '07 should make anyone wary of expecting huge impact from so many first year linemen. It wouldn't make sense with so many things to address to spend a lot of early round money on D-linemen like Raji or Brace whose impact isn't likely to be felt for a few more seasons. I like the idea of adding 1 or 2 new front 7 players every year as opposed to reaching for several in one draft.

    Maybe they will still suck but I think there's good reason for hope.
    \

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    • #32
      Originally posted by it'sjustagame View Post
      Bill Belicheck has a career record of below 500 without Brady, and that includes a 10-5 record last year with the pats
      You honestly can't compare his old days into what he's doing now.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Dean View Post
        Dorsey started and had 46 tackles and one sack. What do you want from a rookie?

        Mario Williams in his second year had 59 tackles and 14 sacks.

        Fields was a back up in S.F. and hasn't done anything to note so far in his career. Chris Baker went undrafted for a reason. Both of these players may or may not do something this year. IMO they probably won't and we will be in the same position of being unable to stop the run once again this year..
        Fields was a starter before getting hurt. When he came back they had gone to a rotation like we have had the past few years. Chris Baker went undrafted because of an off field fight thats not even a factor now, not because of his play, he was projected to get somewhere in the 2nd-4th rounds.
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        2013,2014, and 2015 Adopt a Bronco: Champ Bailey, Marvin Austin and Matt Paradis

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        • #34
          defensive shortcomings

          Originally posted by CanDB View Post
          http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...daniels/page/2

          The reason for this myth is the misconception that because Denver’s defense was poor in 2008-2009 and it's line performed so poorly that all of Denver’s defensive linemen had to be replaced. Denver’s defense was poor, and its line did play badly, but the reason for that is under-reported mainly because most sports-writers only look at stats.

          Denver’s defensive guru throughout the glory years of the 70’s and 80’s was a coach named Joe Collier. Collier was the architect of the "Orange Crush Defense" and easily the greatest defensive coach in Denver history. Collier is also regarded as the first man to ever use the 3-4 defense in the pros while an assistant coach with the Bills in 1964.

          From Collier, Shanahan learned the notion of using defensive linemen as blockers to keep offensive linemen off of your linebackers. In Shanahan’s system, the defensive lineman’s first job was to keep the offensive linemen on the line and only rush after they determined it was a pass play.

          Where Collier still used penetration to get that control of the line Shanahan’s approach was more passive. Only the ends were expected to rush in Shanahan's defense, making them easy to block.

          Because of the way Shanahan used his defensive linemen, there were rarely more than two pass rushers on any pass play unless they were blitzing. This resulted in poor stats for the defensive linemen. That was part of the system.

          Added to all that was Shanahan’s poor management skill when it came to working with defensive coordinators—they had four defensive coordinators in eight years with two of them (Rhodes and Slowik) lasting less than a season each.

          Denver’s defense was constantly changing schemes and players often were simply confused by it all.


          CanDB's comments:

          This report makes a lot of sense to me, although I think we could benefit by having another solid defensive lineman on the team. But time will tell, and if Nolan's influence is what I believe it can be, and the defense is allowed to play with more flare, and able to make decisions based on opportunities, quite possibly the group we have now, teamed with the solid linebacking and highly ranked dback units, may surprise. My feeling is that McD and Nolan were satisfied that they didn't have to go to FA or the draft to revamp the dline - other than getting a hybrid "stud" in Ayers, but instead, took a more focused look at the "undrafted" group, as a complement to what we had. And it took some smarts to land the undrafted group that they did......which may in fact someday be looked upon as some of wisest moves made, given the relatively low status of players in this draft category.
          My position hasn't changed since I wrote one of my first posts here shortly before Christmas. And I strongly believe in re-evaluating as often as necessary so I do change my mind.

          We suffered from two problems last year; lack of talent and poor coaching.

          The tendency we have now is to accept the criticism thats been leveled and believe that we have no talent. This is not true. And the tendency to believe that we have no talent was behind criticism of our draft. Pundits inferred that we had no talent and assumed that drafting any defensive player would improve upon that weakness, but many of those potential draftees would not have been an improvement over the players we already had in the fold.

          It will take time before we see the results, but we've improved the team's talent base at almost every position. We've also improved the character of the team greatly through FA acquisitions, which, unlike last year, are solid players rather than cheap castoffs. Combine this with an enormous infusion of young talent and you have a recipe for a very solid defense. And it's not unusual for a defensive team to make a substantial improvement in one year.

          Our problem is that we are now generally very young, although not inexperienced at key starting positions, and we have to adjust to a new defense. However, our depth situation is much better.

          Here's our opening defensive lineup from last year:

          LE 60 J. Engelberger
          LT 63 D. Robertson
          RT 79 M. Thomas
          RE 92 E. Dumervil
          WLB 55 D. Williams
          MLB 58 N. Webster
          SLB 51 J. Winborn
          LCB 24 C. Bailey
          RCB 32 D. Bly
          SS 33 M. Manuel
          FS 20 M. McCree

          BS 21 H. Abdullah, CB 26 J. Williams, CB 41 K. Paymah, LB 46 S. Larsen, LB
          53 N. Koutouvides, LB 59 W. Woodyard, DT 90 K. Peterson, DE 91 E. Ekuban, DT 93 N. Clemons, DE 96 T. Crowder.

          DID NOT PLAY: LB 97 B. Bailey.

          INACTIVE:
          S 37 C. Lowry, LB 52 L. Green, DE 94 J. Moss, DT 95 J. Shaw.


          It's not hard to see where we've improved.

          Would you prefer a Safety group that included: McCree, Manual, Lowry and Abdullah? Or would you prefer Dawkins, Hill, McBath, Barrett and Bruton?

          Would you prefer a LB group that included Webster, Winborn, Koutouvides, Louis Green and Boss Bailey? Or would you prefer Ayers, Reid and Davis, along with the returning LBs, i.e., DJ, Woodyard and Larsen?

          Would you rather see a DL that included Robertson, Engelberger, Ekuban, Alvin McKinley (briefly) and Shaw?

          The scheme change makes it harder to compare but I wanted to list a lot of the players who are no longer with the team just to provide a graphic way of looking at how many changes have been made. Of course, a coaching/ & scheme change is another part of the recipe but it would be hard to duplicate the mediocrity of recent defensive coaches.

          This has been a massive overhaul. We may not have all the pieces we need yet but it would be hard to repeat some of the recent problems given the amount of change. And we also have a considerable amount of returning talent, which is the overlooked part of the story.

          I don't think that players such as Moss and Crowder were busts, I think that we did about as poor a job of developing them as we possibly could have. The new staff are going to find ways to employ their talents, and the strange truth is that we actually have quite a lot of talent on defense -- believe it or not.

          It's an old story; teams underachieve and the coaching staff is fired only to usher in a new staff & scheme and the results are usually bad. Players never get the benefit of continuity and their development is hampered, and that often results in a parade of 'new answers' in the form of other players but the results rarely change much. There is a superficial resemblance to what we've done but the differences are important. A player such as Brian Dawkins is not just a FA brought into a 'changing deck chairs on the Titanic' scenario. All of the FAs we brought in will help us because the staff did their homework and brought in leaders. We'll still have to develop younger talent and gell into a unit but don't mistake this offseason for the last two.
          Last edited by colinski; 07-07-2009, 01:36 AM.
          There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them. - Louis Armstrong
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          • #35
            Originally posted by colinski View Post
            My position hasn't changed since I wrote one of my first posts here shortly before Christmas. And I strongly believe in re-evaluating as often as necessary so I do change my mind.

            We suffered from two problems last year; lack of talent and poor coaching.

            The tendency we have now is to accept the criticism thats been leveled and believe that we have no talent. This is not true. And the tendency to believe that we have no talent was behind criticism of our draft. Pundits inferred that we had no talent and assumed that drafting any defensive player would improve upon that weakness, but many of those potential draftees would not have been an improvement over the players we already had in the fold.

            It will take time before we see the results, but we've improved the team's talent base at almost every position. We've also improved the character of the team greatly through FA acquisitions, which, unlike last year, are solid players rather than cheap castoffs. Combine this with an enormous infusion of young talent and you have a recipe for a very solid defense. And it's not unusual for a defensive team to make a substantial improvement in one year.

            Our problem is that we are now generally very young, although not inexperienced at key starting positions, and we have to adjust to a new defense. However, our depth situation is much better.

            Here's our opening defensive lineup from last year:

            LE 60 J. Engelberger
            LT 63 D. Robertson
            RT 79 M. Thomas
            RE 92 E. Dumervil
            WLB 55 D. Williams
            MLB 58 N. Webster
            SLB 51 J. Winborn
            LCB 24 C. Bailey
            RCB 32 D. Bly
            SS 33 M. Manuel
            FS 20 M. McCree

            BS 21 H. Abdullah, CB 26 J. Williams, CB 41 K. Paymah, LB 46 S. Larsen, LB
            53 N. Koutouvides, LB 59 W. Woodyard, DT 90 K. Peterson, DE 91 E. Ekuban, DT 93 N. Clemons, DE 96 T. Crowder.

            DID NOT PLAY: LB 97 B. Bailey.

            INACTIVE:
            S 37 C. Lowry, LB 52 L. Green, DE 94 J. Moss, DT 95 J. Shaw.


            It's not hard to see where we've improved.

            Would you prefer a Safety group that included: McCree, Manual, Lowry and Abdullah? Or would you prefer Dawkins, Hill, McBath, Barrett and Bruton?

            Would you prefer a LB group that included Webster, Winborn, Koutouvides, Louis Green and Boss Bailey? Or would you prefer Ayers, Reid and Davis, along with the returning LBs, i.e., DJ, Woodyard and Larsen?

            Would you rather see a DL that included Robertson, Engelberger, Ekuban, Alvin McKinley (briefly) and Shaw?

            The scheme change makes it harder to compare but I wanted to list a lot of the players who are no longer with the team just to provide a graphic way of looking at how many changes have been made. Of course, a coaching/ & scheme change is another part of the recipe but it would be hard to duplicate the mediocrity of recent defensive coaches.

            This has been a massive overhaul. We may not have all the pieces we need yet but it would be hard to repeat some of the recent problems given the amount of change. And we also have a considerable amount of returning talent, which is the overlooked part of the story.

            I don't think that players such as Moss and Crowder were busts, I think that we did about as poor a job of developing them as we possibly could have. The new staff are going to find ways to employ their talents, and the strange truth is that we actually have quite a lot of talent on defense -- believe it or not.

            It's an old story; teams underachieve and the coaching staff is fired only to usher in a new staff & scheme and the results are usually bad. Players never get the benefit of continuity and their development is hampered, and that often results in a parade of 'new answers' in the form of other players but the results rarely change much. There is a superficial resemblance to what we've done but the differences are important. A player such as Brian Dawkins is not just a FA brought into a 'changing deck chairs on the Titanic' scenario. All of the FAs we brought in will help us because the staff did their homework and brought in leaders. We'll still have to develop younger talent and gell into a unit but don't mistake this offseason for the last two.
            wow a good post with a good arguement i agree about the changes we have made on the line and the players that we have got in are an improvement over what we had Robertson was ment to be a great run stuffing DT and from what i saw of him he was useless he couldnt tackle a barndoor.
            that was my opinion on the guy though so im sure that many people liked him lol
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            • #36
              We are definitely going to miss Engelberger. He was a solid player. Although he couldn't rush the passer, he came up big many times against the run. He was a key figure in our short yardage success and he consistantly occupied two offensive lineman. He was a hard nosed player as well.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by colinski View Post
                My position hasn't changed since I wrote one of my first posts here shortly before Christmas. And I strongly believe in re-evaluating as often as necessary so I do change my mind.

                We suffered from two problems last year; lack of talent and poor coaching.

                The tendency we have now is to accept the criticism thats been leveled and believe that we have no talent. This is not true. And the tendency to believe that we have no talent was behind criticism of our draft. Pundits inferred that we had no talent and assumed that drafting any defensive player would improve upon that weakness, but many of those potential draftees would not have been an improvement over the players we already had in the fold.

                It will take time before we see the results, but we've improved the team's talent base at almost every position. We've also improved the character of the team greatly through FA acquisitions, which, unlike last year, are solid players rather than cheap castoffs. Combine this with an enormous infusion of young talent and you have a recipe for a very solid defense. And it's not unusual for a defensive team to make a substantial improvement in one year.

                Our problem is that we are now generally very young, although not inexperienced at key starting positions, and we have to adjust to a new defense. However, our depth situation is much better.

                Here's our opening defensive lineup from last year:

                LE 60 J. Engelberger
                LT 63 D. Robertson
                RT 79 M. Thomas
                RE 92 E. Dumervil
                WLB 55 D. Williams
                MLB 58 N. Webster
                SLB 51 J. Winborn
                LCB 24 C. Bailey
                RCB 32 D. Bly
                SS 33 M. Manuel
                FS 20 M. McCree

                BS 21 H. Abdullah, CB 26 J. Williams, CB 41 K. Paymah, LB 46 S. Larsen, LB
                53 N. Koutouvides, LB 59 W. Woodyard, DT 90 K. Peterson, DE 91 E. Ekuban, DT 93 N. Clemons, DE 96 T. Crowder.

                DID NOT PLAY: LB 97 B. Bailey.

                INACTIVE:
                S 37 C. Lowry, LB 52 L. Green, DE 94 J. Moss, DT 95 J. Shaw.


                It's not hard to see where we've improved.

                Would you prefer a Safety group that included: McCree, Manual, Lowry and Abdullah? Or would you prefer Dawkins, Hill, McBath, Barrett and Bruton?

                Would you prefer a LB group that included Webster, Winborn, Koutouvides, Louis Green and Boss Bailey? Or would you prefer Ayers, Reid and Davis, along with the returning LBs, i.e., DJ, Woodyard and Larsen?

                Would you rather see a DL that included Robertson, Engelberger, Ekuban, Alvin McKinley (briefly) and Shaw?

                The scheme change makes it harder to compare but I wanted to list a lot of the players who are no longer with the team just to provide a graphic way of looking at how many changes have been made. Of course, a coaching/ & scheme change is another part of the recipe but it would be hard to duplicate the mediocrity of recent defensive coaches.

                This has been a massive overhaul. We may not have all the pieces we need yet but it would be hard to repeat some of the recent problems given the amount of change. And we also have a considerable amount of returning talent, which is the overlooked part of the story.

                I don't think that players such as Moss and Crowder were busts, I think that we did about as poor a job of developing them as we possibly could have. The new staff are going to find ways to employ their talents, and the strange truth is that we actually have quite a lot of talent on defense -- believe it or not.

                It's an old story; teams underachieve and the coaching staff is fired only to usher in a new staff & scheme and the results are usually bad. Players never get the benefit of continuity and their development is hampered, and that often results in a parade of 'new answers' in the form of other players but the results rarely change much. There is a superficial resemblance to what we've done but the differences are important. A player such as Brian Dawkins is not just a FA brought into a 'changing deck chairs on the Titanic' scenario. All of the FAs we brought in will help us because the staff did their homework and brought in leaders. We'll still have to develop younger talent and gell into a unit but don't mistake this offseason for the last two.
                Good post!

                I'll hit ya with some CPs when I reload......

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by roushmartin6 View Post
                  Fields was a starter before getting hurt. When he came back they had gone to a rotation like we have had the past few years. Chris Baker went undrafted because of an off field fight thats not even a factor now, not because of his play, he was projected to get somewhere in the 2nd-4th rounds.

                  Fields had no starts last year.

                  Height: 6-2 Weight: 315 Age: 27

                  Born: 9/13/1981 Bogalusa , LA

                  College: Mississippi State

                  Experience: 5th season

                  High School: Bogalusa HS [LA]; Hargrave Mil. Acad. [Chatham, VA]

                  Profile
                  Career Stats
                  Game Logs
                  Game Splits
                  Situational Stats


                  Career Stats more
                  Season Team Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
                  G GS Total Solo Ast Sck SFTY PDef Int Yds Avg Lng TDs FUM Lost
                  2008 San Francisco 49ers 16 0 19 13 6 0.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
                  2007 San Francisco 49ers 16 0 21 11 10 1.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
                  2006 San Francisco 49ers 13 9 28 20 8 0.0 -- 1 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
                  2005 San Francisco 49ers 4 0 7 4 3 0.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
                  TOTAL 75 48 27 1.0 0 1 0 0 -- 0 0 0 0


                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  © 2009 NFL Enterprises LLC.

                  Do you really believe that with the premium value of defensive linemen that because of a fight two years ago in college that 32 NFL teams passed on drafting him? Through seven rounds no one wanted him even with the low risk of a seventh round pick.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by xX-Bronco-Xx View Post
                    You honestly can't compare his old days into what he's doing now.
                    Why, the invention of the cam-corder?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      there are 2 seasons in New England that he went without brady... one that he went 11-5 and the other, he went 5-11 that would make pretty much .500 record to me...

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by bighuka View Post
                        We are definitely going to miss Engelberger. He was a solid player. Although he couldn't rush the passer, he came up big many times against the run. He was a key figure in our short yardage success and he consistantly occupied two offensive lineman. He was a hard nosed player as well.
                        He was terrible. The only good lineman we had last year was Ekuban, because he could get some sacks and was decent against the run. Engleberger couldn't pash rush and constantly got blown up in the run, which is why he lost his starting spot (can't believe he ever had one) half way through the season.
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                        2013,2014, and 2015 Adopt a Bronco: Champ Bailey, Marvin Austin and Matt Paradis

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 22cannon View Post
                          Why, the invention of the cam-corder?
                          That and the legacy he made with the Patriots with it.

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                          • #43
                            Not news to me.

                            Continuity is as important as the talent you have on defense. We were in the midst of a continuity crisis with last years defense, and combining that with the lack of talent/production from our defensive ends, that equaled a HORRIBLE defense, not to mention our safeties...they sucked also.

                            That's why I'm not expecting an epic jump up the defensive rankings this year. Of course we will be better, we can't be any worse. But if we keep Nolan around for 3+ years, I think we could easily be a top defensive unit once we get the right pieces to the 3-4 defense and maintain continuity.

                            :2cents:


                            sigpic


                            FA Targets: DT Jason Jones, DT Pat Simms, S Reggie Smith, LB Dan Connor



                            :cool:

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                            • #44
                              OK, here's a bold (for me) prediction:

                              If the front seven, especially the DL, can stop the run, the Broncos will have a winning season and a top 10-15 D.

                              If the DL (5 techs. & NTs) have double-digit TFL each, but no sacks, the D will be just fine.

                              If all the DL does on pass is apply big-time interior pressure, the sacks will come mostly from the OLBs with an occasional ILB/SS thrown in.

                              Picture this:
                              • 2nd & long, minus side of the field for the O.
                                split-side w/Thomas or someone else in a 5 tech.
                                one of the OLBs (Crowder, Ayers, Dumervil) comes up to the LOS outside the 5 tech.
                                5 tech. comes across the face inside the OT .
                                OLB pass rushes.
                                WILB blitzes the A gap.
                                all this while in cover 1 (5 guys in man and safety free)


                              Or, don't load up and rush five. Rush four only and play cover 3 on 3rd & long.

                              As Ernest used to say, "You know, Earl, that just might work!"

                              After all is said and done, the DL will have some sacks. I'm just sayin' ...
                              "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                              • #45
                                rebuilding

                                Originally posted by dannylee View Post
                                wow a good post with a good arguement i agree about the changes we have made on the line and the players that we have got in are an improvement over what we had Robertson was ment to be a great run stuffing DT and from what i saw of him he was useless he couldnt tackle a barndoor.
                                that was my opinion on the guy though so im sure that many people liked him lol
                                Looking at it from a historical perspective -- we stopped acquiring defensive players (as well as players in general) during the draft drought early in this decade. A few were developed but then left, and we failed to replenish the defense with our own FA acquisitions.

                                That brought us to the Brownco experiment, which was a stop gap measure and failed to add to the defense for the long run. Our only other real acquisitions during this period (besides DJ) were the 2005 group of DBs. There's a few others, such as Portis, who beget Bailey, or Myers, who beget Larsen, but it's a pretty stark draft & FA landscape.

                                There's always a few more that need mention, such as Bly, who came in trade for Bell, Foster and change, but the point is that we stopped adding talent until too late. We also brought in a crop of DBs in 2005, all of whom have now left. And we also acquired Bailey for Portis.

                                We did start adding talent once again starting in 2006, which was a very good crop but lacked defensive players. 2007 was clearly a defensive draft but we did a terrible job of developing its talent -- except Harris, who plays at one of the only positions we're not terrible at developing.

                                Successful franchises develop their talent, and they start by having some highly specific ideas about what type of player they need. Players are cultivated (trained, apprenticed, etc.) over a sufficient period of time under a quality veteran. We didn't have those veterans, and even worse, we were acquiring a new group every year in an effort to forestall the problem of having a crumbling defense.

                                In essence, 2006 was our first year of rebuilding, even though we may not have recognized it as such.

                                It's very hard to get a good read on our talent level in circumstances like this. And our embarrassment over the poor quality of the defense makes us too willing to willing to embrace the logic of starting over completely, which doesn't make sense unless you can find defensive players who are better than the ones you have -- and that's the catch, some of ours weren't that bad.

                                Defensive draft picks are rarely going to come in and make an impact, so our only strategy (besides adding a few high draftees) is too use FAs once again. And we clearly did that, and moreover, we acquired team oriented players at a great number of positions.

                                Just look at them all:

                                Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, Davis, Reid and Fields (also Greisen). That's a lot of help, and they're not castoffs, despite what people say. They were chosen because they fit our scheme. And when you throw in our returning talent (and yes, we did have some), you have a respectable group, and particularly when the draftees are added.

                                We're not devoid of talent. It would be better to say that we're now very young, since much of the talent that we've acquired has only been drafted in the last two years, and we've only used high picks on defense in this draft. The only exceptions are DJ(#1st) in 04 and Dumevil(#4th) in 06. Here's the draftee picture: (only draftees & UDFAs listed)

                                DE - (?) McBean (3rd yr.), (?) Jones(1st yr)
                                NT - Thomas (3rd yr.), Powell (2nd yr.), (?) Baker (1st yr.)
                                DE - (?) Pedescleaux (1st yr.)

                                OLB/DE - Dumervil (4th yr.), Crowder (3rd yr.)
                                ILB - Woodyard (2nd yr.)
                                ILB - Larsen (2nd yr.)
                                OLB/DE - Ayers (1st yr.), Moss (3rd yr.)

                                CB - Smith (1st yr.)
                                CB - Williams (2nd yr.)
                                SS - Barrett (2nd yr.)
                                FS - McBath (1st yr.), Bruton (1st yr.)


                                Our success will depend on how well this group of young players (some of whom are experienced) combines with the FAs and the few older returnees, such as Bailey. It's not bleak, and we're probably much better off without the motley crew of FAs we've seen in the last few years. The point is that we're young rather than bad. A bad team stays bad but a young team gets better.
                                There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them. - Louis Armstrong
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