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  • #46
    Originally posted by bjoli198 View Post
    there are 2 seasons in New England that he went without brady... one that he went 11-5 and the other, he went 5-11 that would make pretty much .500 record to me...
    add in his head coaching record in cleveland ,brady didnt play there also, and you have a below 500 head coaching record.
    My friends over at Sports Radio Interviews sent me a link to an interview Pat Bowlen did with a Chicago-area radio station. While there is nothing earth-shattering here. Below is a segment of the transcript -

    What are the Bears getting in Jay Cutler?

    “They’re getting an extremely talented young quarterback.”


    Some one Please name me the last successful NFL QB that had to be taught how to throw the ball correctly.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by it'sjustagame View Post
      add in his head coaching record in cleveland ,brady didnt play there also, and you have a below 500 head coaching record.
      Huh bill has a 138-86 career record. He was only 8 games under .500 in cleveland.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Chiefs > You View Post
        Huh bill has a 138-86 career record. He was only 8 games under .500 in cleveland.
        Without Brady, he is a sub .500 coach.
        sigpic

        I think Ben Tate will be the best back taken in the 2010 draft. (5/3/10)
        SportsXPicks, check out the Rants and Opinions section

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        • #49
          Originally posted by draco193 View Post
          Without Brady, he is a sub .500 coach.
          What are you trying to say? That he's not a great coach?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Chiefs > You View Post
            What are you trying to say? That he's not a great coach?
            Maybe. I think it goes more like players make coaches, and coaches make players. Without Shanny, TD might never have been a great back. With Tom Brady as his QB, Bill is great. Without Brady, his record indicates hes not so much of a great coach. We possibly wont ever know if Brady is a great QB without Bill on the flip side.
            sigpic

            I think Ben Tate will be the best back taken in the 2010 draft. (5/3/10)
            SportsXPicks, check out the Rants and Opinions section

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by it'sjustagame View Post
              The great Bill Parcels has a saying that takes all rationalization out of anything. " You are what you are" You can find all the articles you want that spin our defensive woes in a way you like to see it. In the end our defense sucked because our talent sucked. The coaches in the NFL are all well versed in the x's & o's. As all the NFL analists that have ever played the games say " The NFL is about the Jimmies and the Joe's. Cam Cameron was great offensive mind and had a system. How did he work out in Miami. Whats the record of coaches following ledgends. Whats the Great Bill Belichecks record without Brady as QB . Coughlin was a joke about ready to be fired in NY. He became a genius once he put together the best front four in the game today. Is there a possiblity that JMD upgrades front 7 in the next couple of years? Yes. It will take more than one offseason to fill in all the gaps. Even if the rookies are all future HOF, the track record show it takes a few years to devlop into a player that contributes significantly. In the end Systems are overrated. This games all about talent

              Very simplistic. In general, NFL coaches are very stubborn. Take for example the Raider's last Super Bowl. Defenses honored the Raiders deep threat all year even though Rice and Brown had both lost a couple of steps. The difference with NE is that they have smart players/coahces and can adjust immediately to what is happening. Put eight in the box and NE will throw fifty times. The next game they may run the ball 30 plus times.

              Great players will stand out, but decent players can look very bad with poor coaching. Three of four plays a game make a huge difference.
              Last edited by Lilrush; 07-07-2009, 04:00 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by draco193 View Post
                Maybe. I think it goes more like players make coaches, and coaches make players. Without Shanny, TD might never have been a great back. With Tom Brady as his QB, Bill is great. Without Brady, his record indicates hes not so much of a great coach. We possibly wont ever know if Brady is a great QB without Bill on the flip side.

                He had 4 years in Cleveland. You are really judging him on those 4 years instead of judging him the last 10? Who knows if Brady would have even been great without Bill? Look at his drafts the last decade. They have been some of the best in the NFL. The guy is a genius.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by it'sjustagame View Post
                  In the end our defense sucked because our talent sucked. The coaches in the NFL are all well versed in the x's & o's. In the end Systems are overrated. This game is all about talent.
                  I hope you're not saying that all coaches are the same.

                  Slowik's command of Xs & Os is very much in question.

                  About half the Broncos headed to TC were on the '08 team.

                  Guess we'll find out how sucky they really are.

                  What if they don't suck in '09? Would that mean they were just slacking off in '08?

                  If they don't suck in '09, it won't have anything to do with coaching, which is overrated?

                  If that's true then you must be saying than Shanahan, and therefore Slowik, should not have been fired.
                  "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by draco193 View Post
                    Maybe. I think it goes more like players make coaches, and coaches make players. Without Shanny, TD might never have been a great back. With Tom Brady as his QB, Bill is great. Without Brady, his record indicates hes not so much of a great coach. We possibly wont ever know if Brady is a great QB without Bill on the flip side.
                    There is no doubt that Brady has made the Pats a better team, but to suggest that Billicheck is mediocre w/o him is just absurd. His record in Cleveland is irrelavant, just as Shanny's record w/ the faiders is irrelavant.

                    Here's a newsflash:

                    If Bill B. would have became available after last season, the other 31 teams would have just died to get him, including this one. That is all we need to know about his reputation as a coach.
                    "I've always thought that Raider fans in Oakland were not so much fans as they were 50,000 people out on a work-release program." - John Elway.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by colinski View Post
                      Looking at it from a historical perspective -- we stopped acquiring defensive players (as well as players in general) during the draft drought early in this decade. A few were developed but then left, and we failed to replenish the defense with our own FA acquisitions.

                      That brought us to the Brownco experiment, which was a stop gap measure and failed to add to the defense for the long run. Our only other real acquisitions during this period (besides DJ) were the 2005 group of DBs. There's a few others, such as Portis, who beget Bailey, or Myers, who beget Larsen, but it's a pretty stark draft & FA landscape.

                      There's always a few more that need mention, such as Bly, who came in trade for Bell, Foster and change, but the point is that we stopped adding talent until too late. We also brought in a crop of DBs in 2005, all of whom have now left. And we also acquired Bailey for Portis.

                      We did start adding talent once again starting in 2006, which was a very good crop but lacked defensive players. 2007 was clearly a defensive draft but we did a terrible job of developing its talent -- except Harris, who plays at one of the only positions we're not terrible at developing.

                      Successful franchises develop their talent, and they start by having some highly specific ideas about what type of player they need. Players are cultivated (trained, apprenticed, etc.) over a sufficient period of time under a quality veteran. We didn't have those veterans, and even worse, we were acquiring a new group every year in an effort to forestall the problem of having a crumbling defense.

                      In essence, 2006 was our first year of rebuilding, even though we may not have recognized it as such.

                      It's very hard to get a good read on our talent level in circumstances like this. And our embarrassment over the poor quality of the defense makes us too willing to willing to embrace the logic of starting over completely, which doesn't make sense unless you can find defensive players who are better than the ones you have -- and that's the catch, some of ours weren't that bad.

                      Defensive draft picks are rarely going to come in and make an impact, so our only strategy (besides adding a few high draftees) is too use FAs once again. And we clearly did that, and moreover, we acquired team oriented players at a great number of positions.

                      Just look at them all:

                      Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, Davis, Reid and Fields (also Greisen). That's a lot of help, and they're not castoffs, despite what people say. They were chosen because they fit our scheme. And when you throw in our returning talent (and yes, we did have some), you have a respectable group, and particularly when the draftees are added.

                      We're not devoid of talent. It would be better to say that we're now very young, since much of the talent that we've acquired has only been drafted in the last two years, and we've only used high picks on defense in this draft. The only exceptions are DJ(#1st) in 04 and Dumevil(#4th) in 06. Here's the draftee picture: (only draftees & UDFAs listed)

                      DE - (?) McBean (3rd yr.), (?) Jones(1st yr)
                      NT - Thomas (3rd yr.), Powell (2nd yr.), (?) Baker (1st yr.)
                      DE - (?) Pedescleaux (1st yr.)

                      OLB/DE - Dumervil (4th yr.), Crowder (3rd yr.)
                      ILB - Woodyard (2nd yr.)
                      ILB - Larsen (2nd yr.)
                      OLB/DE - Ayers (1st yr.), Moss (3rd yr.)

                      CB - Smith (1st yr.)
                      CB - Williams (2nd yr.)
                      SS - Barrett (2nd yr.)
                      FS - McBath (1st yr.), Bruton (1st yr.)


                      Our success will depend on how well this group of young players (some of whom are experienced) combines with the FAs and the few older returnees, such as Bailey. It's not bleak, and we're probably much better off without the motley crew of FAs we've seen in the last few years. The point is that we're young rather than bad. A bad team stays bad but a young team gets better.
                      I think this bold statement hits the nail on the head why the D has been so bad lately. Each new scheme or DC that was tried had different ideas of what would work but were stuck with the players of the previous regime so then tried to add what they could. They ended up with a mish mash of players that didn't really fit one type of scheme at all. With McD and Nolan now in charge I am hoping for some continuity that ends that problem and allows them time to develop the players and actually keep them on the roster.
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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Chiefs > You View Post
                        He had 4 years in Cleveland. You are really judging him on those 4 years instead of judging him the last 10? Who knows if Brady would have even been great without Bill? Look at his drafts the last decade. They have been some of the best in the NFL. The guy is a genius.
                        Scott Pioli I think has more to do with this than Bill. Scott was a very successful talent evaluator and drafter long before he came to the Pats. The Patriots also have some of the least "home grown" talent in the NFL, theyve been much better in hitting in trades and FA though than most teams.

                        And yes, his 4 years in Cleveland are part of his time without Tom Brady. So, in analyzing his success without Tom, they are very important.
                        sigpic

                        I think Ben Tate will be the best back taken in the 2010 draft. (5/3/10)
                        SportsXPicks, check out the Rants and Opinions section

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by jcrobins View Post
                          There is no doubt that Brady has made the Pats a better team, but to suggest that Billicheck is mediocre w/o him is just absurd. His record in Cleveland is irrelavant, just as Shanny's record w/ the faiders is irrelavant.
                          Why are they irrelevant? They are 4 years of his coaching career, in which he was not beloved by fans, or players. As stated above, in analyzing him without Brady, its a large part of his career.


                          Here's a newsflash:

                          If Bill B. would have became available after last season, the other 31 teams would have just died to get him, including this one. That is all we need to know about his reputation as a coach.
                          Maybe. It would be interesting to see him change teams again, and see if he is nearly as successful as he has been with NE.
                          sigpic

                          I think Ben Tate will be the best back taken in the 2010 draft. (5/3/10)
                          SportsXPicks, check out the Rants and Opinions section

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Browns

                            Corey Williams- 6th round, pick 14

                            Shaun Smith- Undrafted

                            (Robaire Smith-6th round, pick 31)

                            Shaun Rogers- 2nd round, pick 20

                            Cardinals

                            Antonio Smith- 5th round, pick 3

                            Darnell Dockett- 3rd round, pick 1

                            Alan Branch- 2nd round, pick 1

                            Chargers

                            Louis Castillo- 1st round, pick 28

                            Igor Olshansky- 2nd round, pick 3

                            Jamal Williams- Undrafted

                            Cowboys

                            Marcus Spears- 1st round, pick 20

                            Chris Canty- 4th round, pick 31

                            Jay Ratliff- 7th round, pick 10


                            Dolphins

                            Kendall Langford- 3rd round, pick 3

                            Vonnie Holliday- 1st round, pick 19

                            Jason Ferguson- 7th round, pick 28

                            49ers

                            Ray McDonald- 3rd round,

                            Justin Smith- round 1, pick 4

                            Isaac Sopoaga- Round 4, pick 8


                            Jets

                            Shaun Ellis- Round 1, pick 12

                            Kenyon Coleman- Round 5, pick 12

                            Kris Jenkins- Round 2, pick 13


                            Patriots

                            Ty Warren- Round 1, pick 13

                            Richard Seymore- Round 1, pick 6

                            Vince Wilfork- Round 1, pick 21


                            Ravens

                            Trevor Pryce- Round 1, pick 28

                            Haloti Ngata- Round 1, pick 12

                            Kelly Gregg- Round 6, pick 4


                            Steelers

                            Aaron Smith- Round 4, pick 14

                            Brett Keisel- Round 7, Pick 31

                            Casey Hampton- Round 1, pick 19




                            Just food for thought..

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by draco193 View Post
                              Why are they irrelevant? They are 4 years of his coaching career, in which he was not beloved by fans, or players. As stated above, in analyzing him without Brady, its a large part of his career.
                              I told you why, for the same reason Shanny's record w/ the faiders is irrelevant. Different time, team, owner, and he was a first time coach. And it is not a large part of his career, the Pats are. 4 years of 13 is not a large part; 9 yrs of 13 is.

                              Obviously, he learned alot since that time because 3 SB's in 4 years speaks for itself. A great QB helps, but you still need the whole team, and that is on the coach.




                              Maybe. It would be interesting to see him change teams again, and see if he is nearly as successful as he has been with NE.
                              Not maybe, fact. If Billichick became available this season or next, he would without a doubt be the hottest head coach on the market. Even more so than Shanny, and it kills me to admit that, but it is true.

                              BTW, Vince Lombardi, Jimmy Johnson, and Bill Parcells are three coaches I can think of off the top of my head that were not as successfull with thier new team than the one they won SB's with, but nobody is claiming they are a lessor coach because of it.

                              One more thing, Bill Parcells never won a SB w/o Bill Belichick; think about it.
                              "I've always thought that Raider fans in Oakland were not so much fans as they were 50,000 people out on a work-release program." - John Elway.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Chiefs > You View Post
                                He had 4 years in Cleveland. You are really judging him on those 4 years instead of judging him the last 10? Who knows if Brady would have even been great without Bill? Look at his drafts the last decade. They have been some of the best in the NFL. The guy is a genius.
                                Chef's ive read your responses to all my posts and to others who are saying basically what im saying. Without talent BB is a very average coach. Now im not saying that BB doesnt have anyting to do with the talent the Pats bring in, matter of fact he is extremly good judge of talent . That backs up my original point in this thread. He became a genius coach when he started to put together great talent. As ive said before the nfl is more about the Jimmys and the Joes than the x's and the o's. As a side note Shanahan had a 6-2 record against BB Pats teams including a win in the only playoff game the 2 teams played in. So maybe genius does beat decent talent evaluator because we all know shanny was pathetic at talent evaluation
                                My friends over at Sports Radio Interviews sent me a link to an interview Pat Bowlen did with a Chicago-area radio station. While there is nothing earth-shattering here. Below is a segment of the transcript -

                                What are the Bears getting in Jay Cutler?

                                “They’re getting an extremely talented young quarterback.”


                                Some one Please name me the last successful NFL QB that had to be taught how to throw the ball correctly.

                                Comment

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