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Why We Didn't Have To Replace The Dline

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  • Sequence
    replied
    Originally posted by broncolee View Post
    I think there were a lot of misconceptions about the Broncos this offseason.

    People assumed that only the defense needed to be addressed and that offense should be ignored because it was ranked #2 in yards.

    People assumed that only defensive players needed to be drafted and that drafting presumably the best running back in the draft was unnecessary.
    Good post!

    Many of these misconceptions were fueled by our clueless local sports media, esp the one about we need to draft D only. I remember draft day and the local glossy hair-job Ferrari-driving local sports word-holes were all beside themselves over the seeming audacity of Denver drafting Moreno over a D player, or even a QB.

    Wasnt it appearent to those wankers that save for Hillis, our running game overall absolutely sucked balls over the last few years--and that one main reason the D always looked so worn out was that we could not maintain long, clock-eating chain-moving drives on the ground? Case in point: look at the four games Hillis started last year. The whole team played better because we had a more balanced offensive attack, one that kept the D off the field and well rested. That's why I was soooooo psyched when they used 12 to draft Moreno--McD saw the need, and reacted well. He understood.

    That's why I actually enjoyed following the Broncos more when I didnt live in Denver--no temptations to tune in local sports goofballs like Soicher (Mr. Anti-Billups), Lombardi, Paige, ad nauseum as they offer "insights" and "analyses"--and worse yet, fueling tenuous, uninformed misconceptions to the fan base.
    Last edited by Sequence; 07-08-2009, 01:02 PM.

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  • broncolee
    replied
    I think there were a lot of misconceptions about the Broncos this offseason.

    People assumed that only the defense needed to be addressed and that offense should be ignored because it was ranked #2 in yards.

    People assumed that only defensive players needed to be drafted and that drafting presumably the best running back in the draft was unnecessary.

    We look at last year and think that the biggest priority is to address is the defense. The real priority is making the team better by any means necessary.

    Sometimes it's a matter of how the talent on the team is being used. It doesn't have to be that the Broncos didn't have good talent on defense. It could be that the talent they had just wasn't being used in a way where it could be effective. They don't need Pro Bowl talent at every position. At this point, they should just be looking to be better than they were last year, which shouldn't be hard with some focus and aggressive play.

    I'm sure they will be looking to improve the overall talent of the defense over the course of the next year or two. Just because they didn't go out and get the big name talent on the defensive line this year, it doesn't mean that they didn't improve the defensive line by switching people around and changing the scheme.

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  • Chargerfreak
    replied
    Originally posted by Papa-pwn View Post
    Browns

    Corey Williams- 6th round, pick 14

    Shaun Smith- Undrafted

    (Robaire Smith-6th round, pick 31)

    Shaun Rogers- 2nd round, pick 20

    Cardinals

    Antonio Smith- 5th round, pick 3

    Darnell Dockett- 3rd round, pick 1

    Alan Branch- 2nd round, pick 1

    Chargers

    Louis Castillo- 1st round, pick 28

    Igor Olshansky- 2nd round, pick 3

    Jamal Williams- Undrafted
    Cowboys

    Marcus Spears- 1st round, pick 20

    Chris Canty- 4th round, pick 31

    Jay Ratliff- 7th round, pick 10


    Dolphins

    Kendall Langford- 3rd round, pick 3

    Vonnie Holliday- 1st round, pick 19

    Jason Ferguson- 7th round, pick 28

    49ers

    Ray McDonald- 3rd round,

    Justin Smith- round 1, pick 4

    Isaac Sopoaga- Round 4, pick 8


    Jets

    Shaun Ellis- Round 1, pick 12

    Kenyon Coleman- Round 5, pick 12

    Kris Jenkins- Round 2, pick 13


    Patriots

    Ty Warren- Round 1, pick 13

    Richard Seymore- Round 1, pick 6

    Vince Wilfork- Round 1, pick 21


    Ravens

    Trevor Pryce- Round 1, pick 28

    Haloti Ngata- Round 1, pick 12

    Kelly Gregg- Round 6, pick 4


    Steelers

    Aaron Smith- Round 4, pick 14

    Brett Keisel- Round 7, Pick 31

    Casey Hampton- Round 1, pick 19




    Just food for thought..
    Jamal Williams was drafted in the supplemental draft. He cost the Chargers a 2nd round draft choice the following year. To label him undrafted is a little misleading....

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  • HuskerBronco7
    replied
    Wow, my dad and I were talking about this the other day. We were wondering why McD didn't seem to make an effort to get new talkent on the d-line, and we both agreed that maybe last years d-line didnt have anything to do with talent, but more of a proper system and a little more passion.


    I'm glad the broncos are written off this year....its gonna make it twice as fun when we succeed :orton::go:

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  • Pura Vida
    replied
    NE's Dline was one of the best in football, yet they felt the need to draft 3 Defensive Linemen. We have one of the worst and dont feel the need to draft one.
    Things that make you go hmmmmm.

    Leave a comment:


  • it'sjustagame
    replied
    Originally posted by Chiefs > You View Post
    He had 4 years in Cleveland. You are really judging him on those 4 years instead of judging him the last 10? Who knows if Brady would have even been great without Bill? Look at his drafts the last decade. They have been some of the best in the NFL. The guy is a genius.
    Chef's ive read your responses to all my posts and to others who are saying basically what im saying. Without talent BB is a very average coach. Now im not saying that BB doesnt have anyting to do with the talent the Pats bring in, matter of fact he is extremly good judge of talent . That backs up my original point in this thread. He became a genius coach when he started to put together great talent. As ive said before the nfl is more about the Jimmys and the Joes than the x's and the o's. As a side note Shanahan had a 6-2 record against BB Pats teams including a win in the only playoff game the 2 teams played in. So maybe genius does beat decent talent evaluator because we all know shanny was pathetic at talent evaluation

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  • R8R H8R
    replied
    Originally posted by draco193 View Post
    Why are they irrelevant? They are 4 years of his coaching career, in which he was not beloved by fans, or players. As stated above, in analyzing him without Brady, its a large part of his career.
    I told you why, for the same reason Shanny's record w/ the faiders is irrelevant. Different time, team, owner, and he was a first time coach. And it is not a large part of his career, the Pats are. 4 years of 13 is not a large part; 9 yrs of 13 is.

    Obviously, he learned alot since that time because 3 SB's in 4 years speaks for itself. A great QB helps, but you still need the whole team, and that is on the coach.




    Maybe. It would be interesting to see him change teams again, and see if he is nearly as successful as he has been with NE.
    Not maybe, fact. If Billichick became available this season or next, he would without a doubt be the hottest head coach on the market. Even more so than Shanny, and it kills me to admit that, but it is true.

    BTW, Vince Lombardi, Jimmy Johnson, and Bill Parcells are three coaches I can think of off the top of my head that were not as successfull with thier new team than the one they won SB's with, but nobody is claiming they are a lessor coach because of it.

    One more thing, Bill Parcells never won a SB w/o Bill Belichick; think about it.

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  • Papa-pwn
    replied
    Browns

    Corey Williams- 6th round, pick 14

    Shaun Smith- Undrafted

    (Robaire Smith-6th round, pick 31)

    Shaun Rogers- 2nd round, pick 20

    Cardinals

    Antonio Smith- 5th round, pick 3

    Darnell Dockett- 3rd round, pick 1

    Alan Branch- 2nd round, pick 1

    Chargers

    Louis Castillo- 1st round, pick 28

    Igor Olshansky- 2nd round, pick 3

    Jamal Williams- Undrafted

    Cowboys

    Marcus Spears- 1st round, pick 20

    Chris Canty- 4th round, pick 31

    Jay Ratliff- 7th round, pick 10


    Dolphins

    Kendall Langford- 3rd round, pick 3

    Vonnie Holliday- 1st round, pick 19

    Jason Ferguson- 7th round, pick 28

    49ers

    Ray McDonald- 3rd round,

    Justin Smith- round 1, pick 4

    Isaac Sopoaga- Round 4, pick 8


    Jets

    Shaun Ellis- Round 1, pick 12

    Kenyon Coleman- Round 5, pick 12

    Kris Jenkins- Round 2, pick 13


    Patriots

    Ty Warren- Round 1, pick 13

    Richard Seymore- Round 1, pick 6

    Vince Wilfork- Round 1, pick 21


    Ravens

    Trevor Pryce- Round 1, pick 28

    Haloti Ngata- Round 1, pick 12

    Kelly Gregg- Round 6, pick 4


    Steelers

    Aaron Smith- Round 4, pick 14

    Brett Keisel- Round 7, Pick 31

    Casey Hampton- Round 1, pick 19




    Just food for thought..

    Leave a comment:


  • draco193
    replied
    Originally posted by jcrobins View Post
    There is no doubt that Brady has made the Pats a better team, but to suggest that Billicheck is mediocre w/o him is just absurd. His record in Cleveland is irrelavant, just as Shanny's record w/ the faiders is irrelavant.
    Why are they irrelevant? They are 4 years of his coaching career, in which he was not beloved by fans, or players. As stated above, in analyzing him without Brady, its a large part of his career.


    Here's a newsflash:

    If Bill B. would have became available after last season, the other 31 teams would have just died to get him, including this one. That is all we need to know about his reputation as a coach.
    Maybe. It would be interesting to see him change teams again, and see if he is nearly as successful as he has been with NE.

    Leave a comment:


  • draco193
    replied
    Originally posted by Chiefs > You View Post
    He had 4 years in Cleveland. You are really judging him on those 4 years instead of judging him the last 10? Who knows if Brady would have even been great without Bill? Look at his drafts the last decade. They have been some of the best in the NFL. The guy is a genius.
    Scott Pioli I think has more to do with this than Bill. Scott was a very successful talent evaluator and drafter long before he came to the Pats. The Patriots also have some of the least "home grown" talent in the NFL, theyve been much better in hitting in trades and FA though than most teams.

    And yes, his 4 years in Cleveland are part of his time without Tom Brady. So, in analyzing his success without Tom, they are very important.

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  • broncos SB2010
    replied
    Originally posted by colinski View Post
    Looking at it from a historical perspective -- we stopped acquiring defensive players (as well as players in general) during the draft drought early in this decade. A few were developed but then left, and we failed to replenish the defense with our own FA acquisitions.

    That brought us to the Brownco experiment, which was a stop gap measure and failed to add to the defense for the long run. Our only other real acquisitions during this period (besides DJ) were the 2005 group of DBs. There's a few others, such as Portis, who beget Bailey, or Myers, who beget Larsen, but it's a pretty stark draft & FA landscape.

    There's always a few more that need mention, such as Bly, who came in trade for Bell, Foster and change, but the point is that we stopped adding talent until too late. We also brought in a crop of DBs in 2005, all of whom have now left. And we also acquired Bailey for Portis.

    We did start adding talent once again starting in 2006, which was a very good crop but lacked defensive players. 2007 was clearly a defensive draft but we did a terrible job of developing its talent -- except Harris, who plays at one of the only positions we're not terrible at developing.

    Successful franchises develop their talent, and they start by having some highly specific ideas about what type of player they need. Players are cultivated (trained, apprenticed, etc.) over a sufficient period of time under a quality veteran. We didn't have those veterans, and even worse, we were acquiring a new group every year in an effort to forestall the problem of having a crumbling defense.

    In essence, 2006 was our first year of rebuilding, even though we may not have recognized it as such.

    It's very hard to get a good read on our talent level in circumstances like this. And our embarrassment over the poor quality of the defense makes us too willing to willing to embrace the logic of starting over completely, which doesn't make sense unless you can find defensive players who are better than the ones you have -- and that's the catch, some of ours weren't that bad.

    Defensive draft picks are rarely going to come in and make an impact, so our only strategy (besides adding a few high draftees) is too use FAs once again. And we clearly did that, and moreover, we acquired team oriented players at a great number of positions.

    Just look at them all:

    Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, Davis, Reid and Fields (also Greisen). That's a lot of help, and they're not castoffs, despite what people say. They were chosen because they fit our scheme. And when you throw in our returning talent (and yes, we did have some), you have a respectable group, and particularly when the draftees are added.

    We're not devoid of talent. It would be better to say that we're now very young, since much of the talent that we've acquired has only been drafted in the last two years, and we've only used high picks on defense in this draft. The only exceptions are DJ(#1st) in 04 and Dumevil(#4th) in 06. Here's the draftee picture: (only draftees & UDFAs listed)

    DE - (?) McBean (3rd yr.), (?) Jones(1st yr)
    NT - Thomas (3rd yr.), Powell (2nd yr.), (?) Baker (1st yr.)
    DE - (?) Pedescleaux (1st yr.)

    OLB/DE - Dumervil (4th yr.), Crowder (3rd yr.)
    ILB - Woodyard (2nd yr.)
    ILB - Larsen (2nd yr.)
    OLB/DE - Ayers (1st yr.), Moss (3rd yr.)

    CB - Smith (1st yr.)
    CB - Williams (2nd yr.)
    SS - Barrett (2nd yr.)
    FS - McBath (1st yr.), Bruton (1st yr.)


    Our success will depend on how well this group of young players (some of whom are experienced) combines with the FAs and the few older returnees, such as Bailey. It's not bleak, and we're probably much better off without the motley crew of FAs we've seen in the last few years. The point is that we're young rather than bad. A bad team stays bad but a young team gets better.
    I think this bold statement hits the nail on the head why the D has been so bad lately. Each new scheme or DC that was tried had different ideas of what would work but were stuck with the players of the previous regime so then tried to add what they could. They ended up with a mish mash of players that didn't really fit one type of scheme at all. With McD and Nolan now in charge I am hoping for some continuity that ends that problem and allows them time to develop the players and actually keep them on the roster.

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  • R8R H8R
    replied
    Originally posted by draco193 View Post
    Maybe. I think it goes more like players make coaches, and coaches make players. Without Shanny, TD might never have been a great back. With Tom Brady as his QB, Bill is great. Without Brady, his record indicates hes not so much of a great coach. We possibly wont ever know if Brady is a great QB without Bill on the flip side.
    There is no doubt that Brady has made the Pats a better team, but to suggest that Billicheck is mediocre w/o him is just absurd. His record in Cleveland is irrelavant, just as Shanny's record w/ the faiders is irrelavant.

    Here's a newsflash:

    If Bill B. would have became available after last season, the other 31 teams would have just died to get him, including this one. That is all we need to know about his reputation as a coach.

    Leave a comment:


  • samparnell
    replied
    Originally posted by it'sjustagame View Post
    In the end our defense sucked because our talent sucked. The coaches in the NFL are all well versed in the x's & o's. In the end Systems are overrated. This game is all about talent.
    I hope you're not saying that all coaches are the same.

    Slowik's command of Xs & Os is very much in question.

    About half the Broncos headed to TC were on the '08 team.

    Guess we'll find out how sucky they really are.

    What if they don't suck in '09? Would that mean they were just slacking off in '08?

    If they don't suck in '09, it won't have anything to do with coaching, which is overrated?

    If that's true then you must be saying than Shanahan, and therefore Slowik, should not have been fired.

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  • Chiefs > You
    replied
    Originally posted by draco193 View Post
    Maybe. I think it goes more like players make coaches, and coaches make players. Without Shanny, TD might never have been a great back. With Tom Brady as his QB, Bill is great. Without Brady, his record indicates hes not so much of a great coach. We possibly wont ever know if Brady is a great QB without Bill on the flip side.

    He had 4 years in Cleveland. You are really judging him on those 4 years instead of judging him the last 10? Who knows if Brady would have even been great without Bill? Look at his drafts the last decade. They have been some of the best in the NFL. The guy is a genius.

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  • Lilrush
    replied
    Originally posted by it'sjustagame View Post
    The great Bill Parcels has a saying that takes all rationalization out of anything. " You are what you are" You can find all the articles you want that spin our defensive woes in a way you like to see it. In the end our defense sucked because our talent sucked. The coaches in the NFL are all well versed in the x's & o's. As all the NFL analists that have ever played the games say " The NFL is about the Jimmies and the Joe's. Cam Cameron was great offensive mind and had a system. How did he work out in Miami. Whats the record of coaches following ledgends. Whats the Great Bill Belichecks record without Brady as QB . Coughlin was a joke about ready to be fired in NY. He became a genius once he put together the best front four in the game today. Is there a possiblity that JMD upgrades front 7 in the next couple of years? Yes. It will take more than one offseason to fill in all the gaps. Even if the rookies are all future HOF, the track record show it takes a few years to devlop into a player that contributes significantly. In the end Systems are overrated. This games all about talent

    Very simplistic. In general, NFL coaches are very stubborn. Take for example the Raider's last Super Bowl. Defenses honored the Raiders deep threat all year even though Rice and Brown had both lost a couple of steps. The difference with NE is that they have smart players/coahces and can adjust immediately to what is happening. Put eight in the box and NE will throw fifty times. The next game they may run the ball 30 plus times.

    Great players will stand out, but decent players can look very bad with poor coaching. Three of four plays a game make a huge difference.
    Last edited by Lilrush; 07-07-2009, 04:00 PM.

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