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  • Front office mistakes with contracts?

    I wish the Broncos were as sure as they said they were that Kyle Orton was going to succeed in Denver 5 months ago. How much do you guys think it would have cost to get Orton to sign a 6 year extension after the trade? $10 million? 12?

    How much now? I'm thinking something in the range of $60 million dollars for 6 years. That's an enormous mistake if you ask me.

    Similarly, the Broncos are going to pay a lot more for Dumervile and, if they want him, Sheffler.

    Do you guys think that maybe we should have had a little more foresight? Isn't McD some kinda super-genius that saw this all coming and never doubted the team's success for a second?

  • #2
    Originally posted by broncsx3 View Post
    I wish the Broncos were as sure as they said they were that Kyle Orton was going to succeed in Denver 5 months ago. How much do you guys think it would have cost to get Orton to sign a 6 year extension after the trade? $10 million? 12?

    How much now? I'm thinking something in the range of $60 million dollars for 6 years. That's an enormous mistake if you ask me.
    The thing is, you have to pay a player fairly or they end up holding out. We just went through that. The Broncos are not now, nor have they ever been, afraid to pay a player very handsomely.

    That's not an issue, and it's not worth risking or making someone unhappy over in my mind. If next year Kyle was still playing at this level but with a cheap-o contract, we might be back in the same mess we were this off-season.

    Why risk it? Let him play out his contract, see where the CBA ends up, and then pay the guy reasonably. Don't try to get him "on the cheap" and don't overpay either. Pay him fairly and enjoy what he brings to the table.

    I see nothing wrong with letting Kyle ride out his old contract while he earns a new one. I'd rather have a happy, expensive quarterback than a pissed off, unhappy cheap one.

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    • #3
      Sometimes it's not the front office, but the players and their agents who decide not to negotiate contracts during the season.

      Agents will tell their players to "test the market" to guage what they consider their true worth.

      As the season progresses, I imagine the front office will begin negotiations with several key players.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by Alastor View Post
        The thing is, you have to pay a player fairly or they end up holding out. We just went through that. The Broncos are not now, nor have they ever been, afraid to pay a player very handsomely.

        That's not an issue, and it's not worth risking or making someone unhappy over in my mind. If next year Kyle was still playing at this level but with a cheap-o contract, we might be back in the same mess we were this off-season.

        Why risk it? Let him play out his contract, see where the CBA ends up, and then pay the guy reasonably. Don't try to get him "on the cheap" and don't overpay either. Pay him fairly and enjoy what he brings to the table.

        I see nothing wrong with letting Kyle ride out his old contract while he earns a new one. I'd rather have a happy, expensive quarterback than a pissed off, unhappy cheap one.
        Eh, that's kinda foolish. It's a business and now KO has all the bargaining chips as an unrestricted free agent moving into a likely uncapped year. If he's unhappy with his 6 year, 12 million dollar contract then you can always give him a raise out of the "kindness" of your heart. Even a significant raise is likely to be a hell of a lot less than he is going to get.

        I'm sure you can't possibly advocate not locking up young players long term in all cases, right? You do see the sense in getting a bargain here and there. In a capped league the only way to win is to have players that are performing better than their contracts. If everyone is getting "what they deserve" than you will have a hell of a time succeeding in a capped league.

        Originally posted by Thors Hammer View Post
        Sometimes it's not the front office, but the players and their agents who decide not to negotiate contracts during the season.

        Agents will tell their players to "test the market" to guage what they consider their true worth.

        As the season progresses, I imagine the front office will begin negotiations with several key players.
        Yea, of course. But do you honestly think that Kyle Orton's agent was unwilling to extend Orton pre-season? No way!
        Last edited by broncsx3; 10-23-2009, 08:01 AM.

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        • #5
          Right. Because players ALWAYS stick to their contracts, regardless of how underpaid they are.

          Hindsight is always 20/20.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Hoserman117 View Post
            Right. Because players ALWAYS stick to their contracts, regardless of how underpaid they are.

            Hindsight is always 20/20.
            I don't see what your point is. Are you saying that because a player might not like his contract we should never extend players with terms favorable to the team?

            Also I agree hindsight is easy but my point was that the team said they were high on Cutler from the get go. I say, if you were so high on him, why not extend him preseason? It's not that much of a risk either, his signing bonus/guaranteed amount wouldn't have been that high... this is a veteran player making like $900k or something.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by broncsx3 View Post
              Eh, that's kinda foolish. It's a business and now KO has all the bargaining chips as an unrestricted free agent moving into a likely uncapped year. If he's unhappy with his 6 year, 12 million dollar contract then you can always give him a raise out of the "kindness" of your heart. Even a significant raise is likely to be a hell of a lot less than he is going to get.

              I'm sure you can't possibly advocate not locking up young players long term in all cases, right? You do see the sense in getting a bargain here and there. In a capped league the only way to win is to have players that are performing better than their contracts. If everyone is getting "what they deserve" than you will have a hell of a time succeeding in a capped league.



              Yea, of course. But do you honestly think that Kyle Orton's agent was unwilling to extend Orton pre-season? No way!

              The majoriy of the fan base thought Orton was a stop gap in the pre-season, and many were calling for Phil Simms. Do you remember the boo-bird incident?

              Are you really suggesting we should have had the foresight to sign him to a contract in the preseason?

              Also, anyone who says we were stupid for not having Doom locked up already is just ignorant. He was coming off of a down season in which he only had 5 sacks and a meager amount of tackles. He was also making a transition to a position he had NEVER played before. No one saw what was about to happen with Doom.

              I would be surprised if they are not trying to work something out for both players, but as we have all learned thus far, the front office doesn't like to share what's going on with the players. It's very likely when some of these deals get done we won't find out about it until it gets done.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                The majoriy of the fan base thought Orton was a stop gap in the pre-season, and many were calling for Phil Simms. Do you remember the boo-bird incident?

                Are you really suggesting we should have had the foresight to sign him to a contract in the preseason?
                Am I suggesting that the FANS should have had the foresight? lol no.

                Am I suggesting that the coaches that say they had faith in Orton from day 1 should have? Well yea. They are the ones in-the-know, right?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by broncsx3 View Post
                  Am I suggesting that the FANS should have had the foresight? lol no.

                  Am I suggesting that the coaches that say they had faith in Orton from day 1 should have? Well yea. They are the ones in-the-know, right?
                  I'm sorry if I came across a bit harsh. I really didn't read your opening post.

                  I believe they had confidence in Orton to be the starter, but not necessarily the franchise QB for the next ten years.

                  Anyway, I still think the front office is probably working on a lot of this stuff behind closed doors and will do what they can to prevent the public from finding out about it prior to it actually happening.

                  Right now Orton is being labelled as a system QB and their is a good chance we will be able to retain him at a good price. I'm a little more concerned about Doom.
                  Last edited by Al Wilson 4 Mayor; 10-23-2009, 08:27 AM.
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                  • #10
                    If this is worst case scenario then it was freakin genius. Pretty much everyone mentioned here can only become a restricted free agent without a new CBA. It would have been a worse idea to give out a lot of long term and guaranteed money with so much uncertainty. I like the idea that they're all playing for contracts.
                    \

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                      Right now Orton is being labelled as a system QB and their is a good chance we will be able to retain him at a good price. I'm a little more concerned about Doom.
                      Yea me too. Orton should get Cassel money, and I'm ok with that.

                      But what if Dumervile wants to be paid $100 million or something? If he sets or comes close to the NFL sack record that's not a crazy request unfortunately.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by broncsx3 View Post
                        Eh, that's kinda foolish. It's a business and now KO has all the bargaining chips as an unrestricted free agent moving into a likely uncapped year.
                        We get first rights to him, and something tells me he'll want to stay in Denver. Also, with the CBA running out, it's in Kyle's interests to secure a good contract (a fair contract) in the near future also, and we all want it to be something both sides can live with.

                        If he's unhappy with his 6 year, 12 million dollar contract then you can always give him a raise out of the "kindness" of your heart.
                        Right, and that sends a signal to every other player on the team. There's a reason the Broncos don't do things that way. It's proven effective over the years.

                        Even a significant raise is likely to be a hell of a lot less than he is going to get.
                        Not likely. If he continues to play like Tom Brady, he'll eventually be paid like Tom Brady. That's sort of how it works. What remains to be determined is how much drama we have to go through in the process. Low-balling him would have been more drama.

                        I'm sure you can't possibly advocate not locking up young players long term in all cases, right?
                        You're right. The quarterback position however, is special. Much to my dismay, it is. When any other player is unhappy, they can be dealt with a number of different ways. When a starting quarterback is unhappy though, it's rare that there's an alternative to either making them happy or getting a new one (and getting rid of the old).

                        You do see the sense in getting a bargain here and there.
                        Absolutely I do. But a "steal" is not a "bargain" and locking Orton in for numbers that resembled his rookie contract would not have worked out well for us down the road, which is why we didn't do it.

                        In a capped league the only way to win is to have players that are performing better than their contracts.
                        Not true. That's a very "zero sum game" approach. The fact is that teams like New England and Denver have managed team concepts for quite a while now, having two of the lowest "costs per win" in the NFL over the last 10 years. It's really not always a matter of ripping players off, but of finding good players, the right players, and having them fit your team.

                        If everyone is getting "what they deserve" than you will have a hell of a time succeeding in a capped league.
                        I disagree, and evidence abounds that this isn't the case. Our two championship teams weren't stingy on money. New England isn't stingy now (though when a player is over-paid, they do tend to ship them out - see notes on Cassel and Seymour, Law and so on).

                        Nah, it's possible to win and be a very good team by paying people fairly. It is. We don't need to try to "cheap" our way through it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by broncsx3 View Post
                          Yea me too. Orton should get Cassel money, and I'm ok with that.

                          But what if Dumervile wants to be paid $100 million or something? If he sets or comes close to the NFL sack record that's not a crazy request unfortunately.
                          I think his agent would be crazy to let him believe he could demand that kind of money. I don't know of any OLB's that demand that kind of money. They came cheaper than DE's.

                          Albert Haynesworth is the kind of guy that occupies double teams and still makes plays. That's why he commanded that kind of money.

                          I can see Doom getting a $20-30 million deal, with about $15 million gauranteed.
                          Last edited by Al Wilson 4 Mayor; 10-23-2009, 08:30 AM.
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                          • #14
                            Brandon Marshall signed a CONTRACT. He needs to honor his end of it. Is he underpaid yes. He will be paid wether it be here or somewhere else. He is making 2 million dollars this year which is not chicken scratch. We are responseable for Jarvis Moss contract which is large and he doesnt even get off the inactive list. Is it flawed yes. but how do you fix it.
                            The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
                            While he sits by his hearth at home.
                            Quickly finds when questioned by others .
                            That he knows nothing at all.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                              I think his agent would be crazy to let him believe he could demand that kind of money. I don't know of any OLB's that demand that kind of money. They came cheaper than DE's.

                              Albert Haynesworth is the kind of guy that occupies double teams and still makes plays. That's why he commanded that kind of money.

                              I can see Doom getting a $20-30 million deal, with about $15 million gauranteed.
                              Obviously you do not have a good feel for contracts. Elvis has excelled whereever he was played. He has more sacks since coming into the leauge then his draft mate Mario Williams. If you want a gauge on how well Doom will be paid look to baltimore and look at T Sizzle's contract, which is about 60 million. Doom will get around 48 to 60 million or he will walk in free agency in 2011 and will be tagged a RFA this year.
                              The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
                              While he sits by his hearth at home.
                              Quickly finds when questioned by others .
                              That he knows nothing at all.

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