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  • #46
    Originally posted by #7Forever View Post
    I'm sorry I disagree.....given what Orton has done the first 9 games, we as fan's believe he gives us the best of the ability to win the game. And after seeing Simms play for a half, we feel that with only 3 days of practice he was so porous that it can't get much better. He did not show any signs of hope....none!
    It is hard these days to evaluate 2nd string QBs based on one bad half. Simms needs more reps and is ahead of Orton in terms of playbook familiarity as he had more time to learn it. Now he just has to build some kind of rhythm with the offense. Give the guy a chance at a full game.
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    • #47
      Apparently I touched a nerve with some people in this thread. This was never a thread about Orton vs. Simms, and certainly not Orton vs. Cutler. It's about fan's perception of 'all about the team' or 'all about one player'. Many of you got it. Many understood the point but disagreed. I have no problem with that. To those who think it's a Simms>Orton or Orton>Simms topic... you missed the boat.
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      • #48
        Honestly, I like both QB's. I think Orton is a good team player, and has a decent arm.

        IMO, Simms is more mobile and has a stronger arm. The downside with Simms is lack of game experience. Honestly, on that sideline throw that went about 6 feet over Marshall's head I was thinking to myself (after I got over the initial disgust) 'Wow, that takes a lot of arm strength to be able to that'.

        The downside with Simms, is what we saw on Sunday, his years without game experience. I honestly believe that if we had to finish the season with Simms he we would be a very good quarterback towards the end. It would unfortunately take a few games for him to get the game experience needed to get up to "game speed". Every player needs game time experience to get up to "game speed". Can anyone tell me that Brandon does not look immensely better in the last 3 or 4 games compared to the first 3 or 4 games? He needed to get up to "game speed". Simms has the arm, mobility, and mental toughness to do it.

        We as fans just need to stop trying to line him up before the firing squad without the opportunity to get up to "game speed". This kind of reaction is probably the same reaction Matt C. received in the beginning of last year. It took him about 4 games before he got up to game speed. Didn't the Patriots lose 3 of 4 when Matt first came in last year? He had no timing with Randy Moss for the first several games. It takes time to get up to "game speed" people. Quit verbally crucifying the guy......
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        • #49
          Originally posted by owninit View Post
          That's all fine and dandy, and i am definitely in the category of orton supporters, who think he improved the team with his mentality. What you're missing in your assertion of "double standard" is if you anylized Orton vs Cutler, the two QB's are far closer in output, and QB play at the offseason, than people want to realize. Each has a far different skill set, but each were close in their passer rating, etc. Therefore QB A who is within 2-3% mean deviation of QB play of QB B, isn't as productive as QB B in certain systems because of a certain lack of self control, and willingness to put the Team first, and play within boundaries (a controlled offense)

          Enter simms you’re assertion that some sort of double standard existing because people like me are saying we need Orton to win, when all along I said it’s about the team, means you missed 80% of the logic that went into those discussions. Simms isn’t within 10% mean deviation of either Orton or Cutler, his production if you look at it 3 years ago when he was a starter, and pre injury, he may have been in the 10% range, but clearly not after being away from the game so long ( a year longer than Vick). People want to say “well simms played great in preseason” Awesome argument, he played OK against second and third stringers, and to show you the difference between the competition level keep in mind that the two interception leaders of the year Cutler and Delhome, combined for a total of one interception and got sacked a combined 4 times in the PREASEASON, now in regular season, they’ve been intercepted a combined 31 times, and sacked a combined 39 times. Regular season is a different animal.

          So long story short, Johhny all state HS football player, as the feel good story who’ll mop the floor of the team bathroom, because he loves the team, can’t win a game on dedication alone because of his attitude, a certain skill set has to be there. The argument about Cuter vs Orton stemmed from them being in the same league, and simms isn’t close to either of those guys, and REALLY showed it Sunday.

          Simms if he does start, which I don’t think he will, will be better than he was Sunday, some prep and actually trying will do wonders. HOWEVER simms isn’t the qb that Orton is, and McD wasn’t playing Orton because of a man crush. I’ll root for simms, but he’s going to have to play at orton’s level to beat SD, If you remember, Orton had to play above average to beat them last time, and for simms to play better than orton’s average is asking a lot. We’ll be lucky if that happens, because he can’t do it consistently or he’d be in every Sunday.
          Again, this wasn't about Orton's abilities vs. Simms' abilities. Orton may be the better QB for this team right now, but that's not the point of this thread. It's about fans having an 'all about the team' mentality with Orton until he's injured. Then it became 'all about Orton' for some people. Not all, just some. You can still want Orton to start and support Simms at the same time, which, I think, you do. Many others do, but there are quite a few 'the sky is falling without Orton' people out there.
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          • #50
            Originally posted by White Dragon View Post
            Orton is SO bad he brings the rest of the team down.

            Throwing passes way over receivers heads, along with at their feet... the opposing team's defense knows this, thus being able to stack the box to stop the run, and gun it at ORTON through the line.

            Along with going 3 and out constantly, giving the defense hardly any rest, causing the defense to wear down fast and collapse.


            I have to say, I've seen enough of ORTON to know that I DO NOT want him starting against the Steelers.
            Fixed it for you. NOW see how close you are to the truth.......
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            • #51
              Originally posted by 80stheman View Post
              I'm reading threads about who will start at QB this Sunday, and there seems to be a double standard emerging. When Cutler was traded a lot of people said that we were better off without him because it's not about one player, it's a team sport, Orton is a better team player, etc. Now, Orton is injured, and a lot of people (Orton supporters) are saying we need him back this week, we can't win Sunday if Simms plays, Orton is our only hope to make the playoffs, etc.

              You can't have it both ways people. How about giving Simms a chance? Maybe with a week's worth of reps with the first team he'll do well. He looked pretty good in pre-season if I recall. And how about having a little faith in the rest of the team? Some of you sound as if you think the team will roll over if Orton doesn't play. Maybe they pick their game up and help Simms out. Remember - it's a team sport.
              You didn't so much touch a nerve as you split a hair. This is your original post. You most certainly made this about Orton vs. Simms. It's the main thrust of your entire post, "give Simms a chance." The whole thing about team sport or it being about 1 player is a confused argument on your account. With Cutler we were talking about the future of the Bronco's as a team (potential controversy/distraction could disrupt the season). With Simms we are talking about the chances of winning just this one game (a players ability to play that week). I think someone said earlier "apples and oranges." I think that's appropriate.

              Answer this question: Do we win or lose with Simms at QB against SD?

              If Simms plays we'll be giving him a second chance by the way.
              Rhyme Time: Loose, Caboose. Lose, Boo's. Grieve, Peeve? Cat, Hat and all of that...

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              • #52
                I strongly disagree. Orton is this team. We need him. PLZ Kyle, come back!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by on2 View Post
                  You didn't so much touch a nerve as you split a hair. This is your original post. You most certainly made this about Orton vs. Simms. It's the main thrust of your entire post, "give Simms a chance." The whole thing about team sport or it being about 1 player is a confused argument on your account. With Cutler we were talking about the future of the Bronco's as a team (potential controversy/distraction could disrupt the season). With Simms we are talking about the chances of winning just this one game (a players ability to play that week). I think someone said earlier "apples and oranges." I think that's appropriate.

                  If Simms plays we'll be giving him a second chance by the way.
                  The people who confused the argument are the one's who made this about Orton vs Simms. I didn't. I made this about the fans. Are the fans behind the team whether Orton plays or not? When I said give Simms a chance I was referring to the people - mainly Orton supporters who all along have said it's not about one guy (Cutler) but it's about the team - that are now saying we need Orton this week or we'll lose. How is that about the team and not all about Orton? If you just throw in the towel because Simms is starting then you're making it all about Orton. Simms is part of this team. That's why I said give him a chance. If Orton's healthy, great, then he'll play. But if he's not we don't have much choice, do we? Brandstater? He's a rookie. That's not a shot at him, just a fact. He may be great some day, I don't know.

                  Answer this question: Do we win or lose with Simms at QB against SD?
                  The answer to that question is: It depends how the team plays. If the team plays like the first six weeks we win, if the team plays like the last three weeks we lose. Because it's not all about Simms.
                  Last edited by 80stheman; 11-20-2009, 10:39 PM.
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by 80stheman View Post
                    The people who confused the argument are the one's who made this about Orton vs Simms. I didn't. I made this about the fans. Are the fans behind the team whether Orton plays or not? When I said give Simms a chance I was referring to the people - mainly Orton supporters who all along have said it's not about one guy (Cutler) but it's about the team - that are now saying we need Orton this week or we'll lose. How is that about the team and not all about Orton? If you just throw in the towel because Simms is starting then you're making it all about Orton. Simms is part of this team. That's why I said give him a chance. If Orton's healthy, great, then he'll play. But if he's not we don't have much choice, do we? Brandstater? He's a rookie. That's not a shot at him, just a fact. He may be great some day, I don't know.



                    The answer to that question is: It depends how the team plays. If the team plays like the first six weeks we win, if the team plays like the last three weeks we lose. Because it's not all about Simms.
                    Ok. I didn't miss your point. But you seem to be willing to dismiss Simms play against Washington. I'm saying that if he plays like that, it's the equivalent of fielding 10 players on offense plus one of their defensive players getting to be in our huddle. Simms was pathetic. I have nothing else to go on. You can't win with a -1 on the offensive personel. Remember how Danny Schayes used to play for the Nuggets? Kind of like that.
                    Rhyme Time: Loose, Caboose. Lose, Boo's. Grieve, Peeve? Cat, Hat and all of that...

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                      Honestly, I like both QB's. I think Orton is a good team player, and has a decent arm.

                      IMO, Simms is more mobile and has a stronger arm. The downside with Simms is lack of game experience. Honestly, on that sideline throw that went about 6 feet over Marshall's head I was thinking to myself (after I got over the initial disgust) 'Wow, that takes a lot of arm strength to be able to that'.

                      The downside with Simms, is what we saw on Sunday, his years without game experience. I honestly believe that if we had to finish the season with Simms he we would be a very good quarterback towards the end. It would unfortunately take a few games for him to get the game experience needed to get up to "game speed". Every player needs game time experience to get up to "game speed". Can anyone tell me that Brandon does not look immensely better in the last 3 or 4 games compared to the first 3 or 4 games? He needed to get up to "game speed". Simms has the arm, mobility, and mental toughness to do it.

                      We as fans just need to stop trying to line him up before the firing squad without the opportunity to get up to "game speed". This kind of reaction is probably the same reaction Matt C. received in the beginning of last year. It took him about 4 games before he got up to game speed. Didn't the Patriots lose 3 of 4 when Matt first came in last year? He had no timing with Randy Moss for the first several games. It takes time to get up to "game speed" people. Quit verbally crucifying the guy......
                      What great points. Yes Simms stunk up the place on sunday, but none of the damage he did directly led to the loss of the game. We have to hope that we are at our strongest tomorrow, but Simms has a lot to offer if he gets things right.

                      Originally posted by on2 View Post
                      You didn't so much touch a nerve as you split a hair. This is your original post. You most certainly made this about Orton vs. Simms. It's the main thrust of your entire post, "give Simms a chance." The whole thing about team sport or it being about 1 player is a confused argument on your account. With Cutler we were talking about the future of the Bronco's as a team (potential controversy/distraction could disrupt the season). With Simms we are talking about the chances of winning just this one game (a players ability to play that week). I think someone said earlier "apples and oranges." I think that's appropriate.

                      Answer this question: Do we win or lose with Simms at QB against SD?

                      If Simms plays we'll be giving him a second chance by the way.
                      I think you misunderstood the post deliberately. The undertone is clearly - if McD decides to start Simms on sunday give him a chance. There was nothing in the OP that indicated that the poster wanted Orton to be benched for Simms.

                      Just plain and reasonable thoughts.

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                      • #56
                        Lifelong Bronco Fan here...

                        ...and I NEVER bash my Broncos. However, I'm with most of the Simms skeptics here...I just don't see anything in him that makes me warm and fuzzy.

                        I HATE the lack of preparation he showed. Yes, apologists, I know "He didn't get any first team reps"...Please! He should be able to execute simple screens, outs, and slants, NO?

                        I HATE his sideline demeanor...while he was stinking up the place for 30 pathetic minutes.

                        I HATE the press-conference comments this week where he took NO responsibility for his performance, and stated that if Kyle starts...his first team reps this week are "all for naught".

                        GOD, I pray I'm wrong...if he starts...but I just don't feel good about Simms.

                        GO BRONCOS!!!

                        DENVER: 27 :orton:
                        BOLTS: 18
                        KYLE ORTON ARMY SUPPORTER & FAN/MEMBER #333
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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by on2 View Post
                          Ok. I didn't miss your point. But you seem to be willing to dismiss Simms play against Washington. I'm saying that if he plays like that, it's the equivalent of fielding 10 players on offense plus one of their defensive players getting to be in our huddle. Simms was pathetic. I have nothing else to go on. You can't win with a -1 on the offensive personel. Remember how Danny Schayes used to play for the Nuggets? Kind of like that.
                          I'm not dismissing his play. Yes he played poorly. He should have been better prepared, but maybe coaching staffs should prepare their back up QBs better. Simms had no work with the #1 offense all season. How many back up QBs come into a game cold and do well? Plus, people are assuming we would have won if Orton hadn't been hurt. Maybe, but there's no guarantee of that. ST broke down on the second half KO, the D struggled in the second half - maybe because the O couldn't move the ball with Simms, or maybe because the D has been struggling ever since the bye. And what about the coaching? Our running game was working in the 1st half, but when Simms goes in cold McD put it on his shoulders and didn't call as many running plays as he probably should have. In other words, it was a team loss, and not just because Orton left the game.

                          Don't misunderstand me, I believe Orton is a good team player, but he's not the type of player that can win a game all on his own. Those kinds of players a rare in the NFL. With the rest of the team struggling around him against Washington I don't know that we would have been able to win.
                          Last edited by 80stheman; 11-21-2009, 11:14 AM.
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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
                            What great points. Yes Simms stunk up the place on sunday, but none of the damage he did directly led to the loss of the game. We have to hope that we are at our strongest tomorrow, but Simms has a lot to offer if he gets things right.



                            I think you misunderstood the post deliberately. The undertone is clearly - if McD decides to start Simms on sunday give him a chance. There was nothing in the OP that indicated that the poster wanted Orton to be benched for Simms.

                            Just plain and reasonable thoughts.
                            Thank you for understanding this thread!
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