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Power Blocking Vs. Zone Blocking

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  • #16
    Defensive linemen are getting bigger and stronger every year. I think the power scheme really is the way to go for the future.

    The days of a bunch of 290 lb o-linemen dominating are done, unless teams can find 5 Tom Nalens.

    I think zone-blocking will peter out in 4 or 5 years and the day of 280 lb. starting Offensive Guards and Centers will soon be a memory.

    It was a good run, but if it is to survive, there will have to be some modifications, I just don't see teams being able to acquire 5 320 lb dancing bears!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
      Defensive linemen are getting bigger and stronger every year. I think the power scheme really is the way to go for the future.

      The days of a bunch of 290 lb o-linemen dominating are done, unless teams can find 5 Tom Nalens.

      I think zone-blocking will peter out in 4 or 5 years and the day of 280 lb. starting Offensive Guards and Centers will soon be a memory.

      It was a good run, but if it is to survive, there will have to be some modifications, I just don't see teams being able to acquire 5 320 lb dancing bears!
      here, here


      The other thing tot remember though is todays 320 dancing bears, can out run every player on the glory day of denvers ZBS "Fast o-line"

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      • #18
        Originally posted by owninit View Post
        here, here


        The other thing tot remember though is todays 320 dancing bears, can out run every player on the glory day of denvers ZBS "Fast o-line"
        It floors me how fast 320-350 pounds of human can move in the NFL. What an unbelieveable game....
        A super bowl victory is the only thing that matters in a season. So to show improvement you have to get closer than we were last year. So the AFCC game is a good answer if we only match what we did last year it is a failure. The Giants were 9-7 and won it all so record or first round bye mean nothing unless you win it all-

        #87Birdman wrote it- adding Manning, the Broncos should be held to it, and certain posters think otherwise and we know who you are.....

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        • #19
          We need one or the other right now. Our Oline is obviously a liability to the team in its current state, so now we need to figure out where to go from here.

          It seems to me that Power Blocking is what's best for the team. McDaniel's offense is centered around running, and relies a lot on a PB scheme for efficiency in the Red Zone and key 3rd downs. If that's what he needs to get the offense running, so be it.

          Yeah, I know we've played some good offense with the Zone Blocking too, but this is a new age for the team, with a completely new system that might need a different scheme to run correctly. We've seen or rushing offense struggle under the ZB set-up, and we've seen our Oline get blasted to pieces every time Harris was out. Relying on the health of key players is a bad way to run an offense, let alone a team. We could have won 4 games this season that we didn't due to inefficiency in the offense. We could have been 12-4 with a more effective scheme behind the offense -- who knows.

          It might be worth a shot though to give it a try next season. What we have now is definitely not working like it should. Perhaps we're fitting square pegs in round holes. We went 6-0 with a struggling version of the PB scheme if I recall correctly, so why not fix that up for next season and see where we go from there?
          Brock you like a hurricane!
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          Think of a bigger, stronger, more handsome Eli Manning.... That's Fargo.

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          • #20
            I don't think one scheme is necessarily better than the other.

            In the end it always comes down to talent.

            Emmitt Smith became the all time leading rusher behind one of the biggest lines in the NFL while Terrell Davis ran for over 2,000 yards in a season behind one of the smallest lines in the NFL.
            My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
            You Mad Bro?
            Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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            • #21
              Zone works best with WCO. The defense has to respect the stretch and allows you to run PA bootlegs stretching the field from sideline to sideline and routes across the field.

              Man is better for downfield PA patterns to the WR. That's what the current system, Erhardt-Perkins, calls upon.

              IMO that's why we're looking to switch to more man blocking. It fits the passing system we currently use. If we're looking to be a tough, physical team similar to the ones Parcells has run, we need to stick with what makes his system work. Big strong O Linemen power blocking and opening up passes downfield in the PA game.
              Last edited by Lomax; 01-13-2010, 10:10 AM.
              "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

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              • #22
                Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                Defensive linemen are getting bigger and stronger every year. I think the power scheme really is the way to go for the future.

                The days of a bunch of 290 lb o-linemen dominating are done, unless teams can find 5 Tom Nalens.

                I think zone-blocking will peter out in 4 or 5 years and the day of 280 lb. starting Offensive Guards and Centers will soon be a memory.

                It was a good run, but if it is to survive, there will have to be some modifications, I just don't see teams being able to acquire 5 320 lb dancing bears!
                Once again, Denvers best OLines were guys who had played in man blocking with other teams that were also mobile enough to play in zone blocking. Mark Schlereth was really strong for his size. When you run into problems is when the lineman is too one dimensional because if you crowd the LOS, it leads to 5 or more defenders against 5 offensive linemen and since a double team at where the play is designed is part of the ZBS, it becomes a challenge if you dont have the number advantage for that initial double team. The lateral movement and cutblocking is a big part of why the cutbacks are a big part of the running game but the double team at where the play is designed to go is how the smaller OLinemen get a push on the bigger Dlinemen. But you its hard to have a double team if the number advantage isnt there, which you commonly see in short yardage. Again, as was the case in the beginning, Denver needs linemen who are strong enough and mobile enough, not one or the other.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lomax View Post
                  Zone works best with WCO. The defense has to respect the stretch and allows you to run PA bootlegs stretching the field from sideline to sideline and routes across the field.

                  Man is better for downfield PA patterns to the WR. That's what the current system, Erhardt-Perkins, calls upon.

                  IMO that's why we're looking to switch to more man blocking. It fits the passing system we currently use.
                  In a sense I think along these lines too.


                  Bootlegs, misdirection, ZB all stem from the same motion from the o-line

                  as well as

                  Man N/S run Blocking, shotgun plays , PA, crossing routs, all pretty much result from the same motion from the o-line....


                  If you intertwine the two methods, the LB's key off the line, and know what's going to happen with the play.

                  If the linemen are either keeping a hat on a guy, or flowing every play, and making the blocking look similar then it keeps the LB's honest.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Schadenfreude View Post
                    Once again, Denvers best OLines were guys who had played in man blocking with other teams that were also mobile enough to play in zone blocking. Mark Schlereth was really strong for his size. When you run into problems is when the lineman is too one dimensional because if you crowd the LOS, it leads to 5 or more defenders against 5 offensive linemen and since a double team at where the play is designed is part of the ZBS, it becomes a challenge if you dont have the number advantage for that initial double team. The lateral movement and cutblocking is a big part of why the cutbacks are a big part of the running game but the double team at where the play is designed to go is how the smaller OLinemen get a push on the bigger Dlinemen. But you its hard to have a double team if the number advantage isnt there, which you commonly see in short yardage. Again, as was the case in the beginning, Denver needs linemen who are strong enough and mobile enough, not one or the other.
                    Those "little fast linemen" denver had were also mean as hell, and beat people up... Schlereth, Nalen, Zimmerman, lepsis, Diaz infante, could all hold there own, with some man responsibility.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lomax View Post
                      Zone works best with WCO. The defense has to respect the stretch and allows you to run PA bootlegs stretching the field from sideline to sideline and routes across the field.

                      Man is better for downfield PA patterns to the WR. That's what the current system, Erhardt-Perkins, calls upon.

                      IMO that's why we're looking to switch to more man blocking. It fits the passing system we currently use. If we're looking to be a tough, physical team similar to the ones Parcells has run, we need to stick with what makes his system work. Big strong O Linemen power blocking and opening up passes downfield in the PA game.
                      Pass blocking is pass blocking. The WCO is often a misnomer. It means more than play design that involves beating the hell out of slants. Its also means preparation methods as much as play design. Under Shanahan, Denver took plenty of chances down the field. Originally the WCO used a lot of slants and passes to running backs. Walsh was the OC at Cincinnati and they had a bad offensive line and he needed to find a way to move the ball without the benefit of having a running game and having time to throw the ball down field. So the offense that evolved used a lot of slants and passes out of the back field. Even in San Francisco, you would see San Fran take shots down field because they had a better line than Walsh had in Cincinnati. Same with Denver, its not like they werent going to take shots down field. It would have been a waste of Elway. When SF and Denver had the OLine to take shots down the field, they did. Its true that play design features a horizontal dimension to it but its not like its rigidly all passes of 10 or fewer yards.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by owninit View Post
                        Those "little fast linemen" denver had were also mean as hell, and beat people up... Schlereth, Nalen, Zimmerman, lepsis, Diaz infante, could all hold there own, with some man responsibility.
                        Thats what I just said. Our early ZBS linemen were making a living as linemen on teams that ran man blocking. They werent one dimensional. It was kind of hard not to have linemen who could do both since every other team was running man blocking and that was our talent pool.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Schadenfreude View Post
                          Thats what I just said. Our early ZBS linemen were making a living as linemen on teams that ran man blocking. They werent one dimensional. It was kind of hard not to have linemen who could do both since every other team was running man blocking and that was our talent pool.
                          i know i was agreeing with you....

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by owninit View Post
                            In a sense I think along these lines too.


                            Bootlegs, misdirection, ZB all stem from the same motion from the o-line

                            as well as

                            Man N/S run Blocking, shotgun plays , PA, crossing routs, all pretty much result from the same motion from the o-line....


                            If you intertwine the two methods, the LB's key off the line, and know what's going to happen with the play.

                            If the linemen are either keeping a hat on a guy, or flowing every play, and making the blocking look similar then it keeps the LB's honest.
                            I don't think it's an accident that Shanahan adopted the WCO and Zone blocking. They just fit together. You can do misdirection with either type of run, but each one opens up different plays. Stretching the field opens up the cutback runs and backside passes. Hitting the middle of the defense opens up the corners.

                            Originally posted by Schadenfreude View Post
                            Pass blocking is pass blocking. The WCO is often a misnomer. It means more than play design that involves beating the hell out of slants. Its also means preparation methods as much as play design. Under Shanahan, Denver took plenty of chances down the field. Originally the WCO used a lot of slants and passes to running backs. Walsh was the OC at Cincinnati and they had a bad offensive line and he needed to find a way to move the ball without the benefit of having a running game and having time to throw the ball down field. So the offense that evolved used a lot of slants and passes out of the back field. Even in San Francisco, you would see San Fran take shots down field because they had a better line than Walsh had in Cincinnati. Same with Denver, its not like they werent going to take shots down field. It would have been a waste of Elway. When SF and Denver had the OLine to take shots down the field, they did. Its true that play design features a horizontal dimension to it but its not like its rigidly all passes of 10 or fewer yards.
                            I'm not talking about pass blocking. You know how effectively we ran the bootleg under Shanahan? When you run stretch plays, the defense has to key on that. The defense will key the outside, leaving the bootleg rollout and drags, flats, and crosses wide open. The safeties are wide, which is why the post opens up as well. It's all created by zone runs. WCO, mobile QBs, zone blocking and PA bootlegs all go together and are a staple of the Shanahan offense.

                            On the flipside, if you're running dives, powers and leads, when you run fakes, you will fake inside. That'll open up plays like the end around, or the flea flicker, and of course as everybody has their eyes glued to the center of the field, the corners of the field open up on deep go routes. If we're switching to a Parcells scheme, the type of playaction plays we will run will require more inside running using man blocking.
                            "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

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                            • #29
                              From the time offensive linemen ...

                              ... start to receive fundamentally sound coaching (for some it's YAFL and for others it's HS), they learn the different kinds of blocks to use for each running play: base, down, scoop, reach, pull, chip, zone, etc.

                              Each kind of block begins with the first step. If an OT is going to reach a DE, the first step must be definite and with the correct foot. If not, he'll never make the block. I had a kid once who wasn't reaching the DE on an outside run play (might have been option or an outside lead play). I kept telling him to step with his right foot. He kept telling me he was. I told him he wasn't. We kept running the same play and he finally stepped correctly and made the block. He turned around and looked at me (we were practicing) as if he'd just discovered something.

                              Point is the type of block for the play. They all start with certain kinds of steps. Zone running plays start when playside linemen all take a zone step. Others previously in this thread have done a good job pointing out how OL will hand defenders off in order to work upfield or release to a backer.

                              A Zone Blocking System may be a misnomer. It might be more accurate to say Shanahan's playbook had many run plays using zone blocking. They used other types of blocks as well. Not doing well in short yardage and inside the +20 were problems at the end of Shanahan's tenure as well. Shanahan had mobile QBs who could boot out and pass or run on short yardage. Now, with a different offense, getting a yard or two between the tackles is necessary. In order to do so, larger Guards and C are needed rather than the more agile types cultivated under Shanahan.

                              Being able to get those tough, inside yards will set up PAP as well as create a pocket for Orton in pass pro. The interior stays stout while the tackles deal with outside pressure either alone or with help. Bigger Gs & C will also help Moreno. It's a move in the right direction.
                              "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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