Tim Tebow

[Bernie24]

Orton was in his first year with the team, under a new coach and new system. He played hurt (many games throughout the season).

And how did he go 2-8, or even 2-6? Going to credit Cutler with an 8-8 season, but not Orton? Was it Orton's fault our run defense was in shambles the last 10 games of the season last year? Please.

Was it Cutler's fault our ENTIRE defense was in shambles all 16 games of the season 2 years ago?

Are you really not understanding the point I'm making?

[Bernie24]

Well, we know this isn't true. Not sure how to even argue that.

Broncos w/ Cutler: 8-8
Broncos w/ Orton: 8-8

Did Cutler win more games (Back to original argument): No

Pretty sure you understand the point I'm making and you're just simply ignoring it.

[Tripp]

Was it Cutler's fault our ENTIRE defense was in shambles all 16 games of the season 2 years ago?

Are you really not understanding the point I'm making?

Understood completely. You are giving Cutler an 8-8 season with a bad defense, but giving Orton a 2-6 season with a bad defense. I don't care how good our defense played in a specific game.

I get it.

[topscribe]

Nope. Sorry. I'm talking about when they both played with the Broncos when they both had crappy defenses and crappy running games.

Cutler 8-8
Orton 2-8(2-6)

Oh, so now we're cherry-picking games. I cannot begin to describe how asinine
this comparison is. There was absolutely nothing similar to the two seasons.
Nothing. Cutler was healthy all year. Orton played with injuries for 10 games.
Cutler played in a familiar system with the same playbook, same receivers, same
O-line, and same coaches for three years. Everything that was familiar to Cutler
was new to Orton.

I'm not in this fight. Because this Cutler/Orton debate has been a stupid one
from the beginning. But I do care about facts. If you are going to go into
comparisons, then you need to consider alllllllllllllllll the factors, not just a
couple.

By the way, when you and others keep spouting off about 2-8, you are
handing Orton the loss at Washington, too. He did not lose that game. Simms
did. Orton played less than ½ of that game, and he already had 193 yards,
2 TDs, and a 134.7 QBR.

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[broncos SB2010]

Alright, having gotten sick of your rhetoric, unsupported by any facts as it was, I went and looked up some stats. Guess what? They completely prove you wrong. An 80% conversion rate is not the impossible accomplishment you make it out to be. You may think that Tebow won't be able to pull it off behind this line, that's your prerogative, but to act like it isn't doable for a truly gifted power runner (which Tebow is) is just plain wrong.

As a team last year, the Broncos converted 58% of their runs of 2 or less. Meanwhile the Dolphins and Bengals were tied for the lead with a conversion rate of 79%. So yes, it's very doable. Sorry.

Here's the link.

You're right...Tebow can do anything and is the greatest ever.

[Gatorgirl]

Tebow isn't the reason Orton was mediocre, but he is evidence.

Imagine that Orton had played the 2nd half of the season like the first, with a QB rating of 100+ and winning all this games, or close to it - maybe 13-3 for the season. Would we have drafted Tebow? Almost certainly not. Instead we would have done a new long term deal for Orton and drafted to fill some of the other needs of the team. And Tebow would be in Buffalo.

Tebow's here because management and the coaching staff don't want to see any more of Orton than they have to.

If true why is orton still here? And why is mcd still behind him 100 %? True the bills could have benifited more. And the poor bills could use great players at every position. Jax passing is the real shocker. These guys can't even sell tickets and they pass on the best thing to come out of that town? Hmmm

I think you misunderstand how management views this game. It is a business to them not a sport. They are, HAVE, to be looking years down the road. They are making decisions not based on today but on how their decisions will affect the next five, ten, twenty years. Drafting tebow was a great decision for the future of the franchise. Not only as a player but the amount of money and exposure he will bring in the years to come.

[DancingHorsey]

You're right...Tebow can do anything and is the greatest ever.

You kept asking for proof, and once I give it to you, you respond with a snide comment of no substance. Bravo...

[broncos SB2010]

You kept asking for proof, and once I give it to you, you respond with a snide comment of no substance. Bravo...

You gave no proof that subbing in QBs can be effective in getting short yards and can help a team win. Those stats incude QBs but are primarily for RBs, not QBs coming in for a sub package. As I have stated several times in this discussion, that changes the playing field for the offense and defense. Show me some stats that shows subbing in QBs for various packages is an effective way to win games/get short yards and I will happily tell you it has potential.

You are right though, some teams do have a high conversion rate but I would still like to see individual player stats for that as well.

I also disagree with you saying I gave no facts. I supported my claims of subbing QBs using the eagles has my example. Vick as a sub was horrible, when he ran the team (Falcons) as a starter, he was fantastic. Getting yards as a starter and getting yards as a sub are completely different and I still stand by that.

[topscribe]

But all these genius guys with a computer on this site do huh.

It's a wonder how everybody who dogs on professionals like Woody aren't Sports Writers or Coaches themselves considering they are SO smart and they know about football but people who get paid to give their opinions or directly influence how things are done don't.

One would think it would be the other way around.

... don't put words in my mouth, or attempt to categorize from where I'm coming.

I have read enough of Mr. Paige to make an informed opinion of his football knowledge, something I feel qualified to do.

I, too, am a professional who knows a thing or two about writing.

Have a nice day.

Exactly, Sam. Some of us have been around for a while - me since the first
game the Broncos ever played on 9 Sept 1960. A little over a month from now,
that will have been 50 years.

And let us not gloss over my user name: top-SCRIBE. I have that for a reason.

Having said that, I give Woody a thumbs up for laughs, a thumbs down for
substance and insight. He's fun to read sometimes, but don't take him
seriously.

-----

[DancingHorsey]

You gave no proof that subbing in QBs can be effective in getting short yards and can help a team win. Those stats incude QBs but are primarily for RBs, not QBs coming in for a sub package. As I have stated several times in this discussion, that changes the playing field for the offense and defense. Show me some stats that shows subbing in QBs for various packages is an effective way to win games/get short yards and I will happily tell you it has potential.

You are right though, some teams do have a high conversion rate but I would still like to see individual player stats for that as well.

I also disagree with you saying I gave no facts. I supported my claims of subbing QBs using the eagles has my example. Vick as a sub was horrible, when he ran the team (Falcons) as a starter, he was fantastic. Getting yards as a starter and getting yards as a sub are completely different and I still stand by that.

Tebow lining up as the QB in short yardage situations is better than lining up a power back behind Orton. It amazes me that you don't see that. The options available to an offense in those situations is ridiculous (pass, run, or hand-off). You ask for QB stats to prove that Tebow will be successful in such situations, and all I can do is laugh. There isn't a QB in the league with Tebow's attributes, so such an endeavor is pointless.

By the way, you're reference to Vick's lack of success is weak in the extreme as he and Tebow are not analogous players. To me it's like saying that Alstott wouldn't be able to convert a short yardage situation because Reggie Bush couldn't. It's plain silly.

Meanwhile, you won't even admit that you were wrong about the potential for a guy like him to convert 80% of the time despite the stats I provided you. At this point it's really hard for me to take you seriously.

[Spirit]

Tim Tebow #15 QB

2009 STATS

RATING - 164.17

YARDS - 2,895

TOUCHDOWNS - 21

CAREER STATS

YARDS - 9,285

TOUCHDOWNS - 88

Whatever's wrong with his throwing motion...I like it.

[Bernie24]

Oh, so now we're cherry-picking games. I cannot begin to describe how asinine Prior to the bye isn't exactly "cherry-picking". It's six consistent games where our defense played great and kept us in it. Then we had 10 consecutive games where our defense played like crap and didn't do much better than our anemic offense did.
this comparison is. There was absolutely nothing similar to the two seasons.
Nothing. Cutler was healthy all year. Orton played with injuries for 10 games.
Cutler played in a familiar system with the same playbook, same receivers, same If you want to get nit picky about all the differences you also forgot to mention It was only Cutler's 2nd year as a starter in the league, he had 8 RBs on the IR, a crappy ST games all around with a rookie Prater who sucked that year and terrible starting position almost every drive, and a whole lot of other excuses I'm sure I could find.(But I don't religiously look for them like Ortonites)
I'm not in this fight. Because this Cutler/Orton debate has been a stupid one
from the beginning. But I do care about facts. If you are going to go into
comparisons, then you need to consider alllllllllllllllll the factors, not just a
couple.As do you

By the way, when you and others keep spouting off about 2-8, you are
handing Orton the loss at Washington, too. He did not lose that game. Simms
did. Orton played less than ½ of that game, and he already had 193 yards,
2 TDs, and a 134.7 QBR. You are what your record says you are. But if you noticed I put 2-6 in ()-----

And its sleepy time for me now
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[Starbroncs]

Maybe you didn't know this but the Steelers fans pack every game including away games. It's not just Denver, Pittsburgh has probably the best fan base in all of sports as far as traveling to support your team.

steeler fans suck actually, biggest bandwagon fanbase ever. Only difference is they are always good, so the bandwagoners never jump off...thus you get a HUGE fanbase and everyone calls them great. Doesnt anyone find it odd that the team with the most superbowls also has the biggest fanbase?

[samparnell]

Exactly Right

All of the inconsistencies in his delivery come from him dropping the ball down. Holding the ball up and then not dropping the ball for delivery all but eliminates any other inconsistencies in his delivery.

It will emerge at times though, especially if he has to throw on the run. That would be about the only time it would be necessary to wind up in order to throw.

When he's under, he needs to bring the ball up by his shoulder and the side of his helmet after the snap. He was doing that at his pro day.

Afterwards, if he won't lower the ball before he throws it, the mechanics are fixed.

That takes care of throwing preparation when under. What he does for the mesh point in handoffs and PAP adds a couple of things, as does what to to when in the gun.

Tebow is a great athlete with a lot of talent, great attitude and work habits who is surrounded by great coaching and teammates. I would be surprised if his throwing mechanics are a big problem in the NFL.

Adjusting to the speed of the game and the complexity of the coverages he will see will take longer and be more of a problem than throwing the ball.

In the meantime, if McDaniels has some specials (e.g., "Wild" stuff) that he can come in on to get his feet wet, it will help his comfort level.

Personally, I'd like to see him take reps as the holder on XPA/FGA.

PS The criticism of Tim Tebow's throwing mechanics comes mostly from commentators, with a voice in sports media, who lowered his draft grade and now need to protect their credibility as talent evaluators. The progress of the 2010 QB class will be interesting to observe over time. Let us (not to be confused with lettuce) hope they mature more quickly as players than the class of 2006 has.

[broncos SB2010]

Tebow lining up as the QB in short yardage situations is better than lining up a power back behind Orton. It amazes me that you don't see that. The options available to an offense in those situations is ridiculous (pass, run, or hand-off). You ask for QB stats to prove that Tebow will be successful in such situations, and all I can do is laugh. There isn't a QB in the league with Tebow's attributes, so such an endeavor is pointless.

By the way, you're reference to Vick's lack of success is weak in the extreme as he and Tebow are not analogous players. To me it's like saying that Alstott wouldn't be able to convert a short yardage situation because Reggie Bush couldn't. It's plain silly.

Meanwhile, you won't even admit that you were wrong about the potential for a guy like him to convert 80% of the time despite the stats I provided you. At this point it's really hard for me to take you seriously.

The bold is where you lose credibility in my eyes. Not a single QB has his attributes and yet Tebow hasn't taken a single snap in the NFL. Are you saying not 1 can run as well as he can? No one is as fast or as tough? No one can throw as well as he can? How can you justify that? All Tebow has right now is potential.

Lots of teams have tried subbing or rotating QBs. The Steelers with Kordell Stewart, the Cowboys with Roger Staubach, the Eagles last year, are a few teams that tried it. All of them were unsuccessful at it and ended up going to a 1 QB system. I just don't see that being any different here in Denver. It amazes me that you don't see how pulling your starting QB can affect a team.

I would love to be proven wrong in this during the upcoming season but I will have to wait to see to believe it.