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  • #31
    Originally posted by L-TRAIN View Post
    To win in the NFL...you have to have DEFENSE!!!! Seattle is showing today why just making it to the playoffs is important for a franchise to build something. The Saints defense also played a much different game last year and helped win that Super Bowl. Let Tebow grow and just build a beast defense around him and Denver will be fine. Drew Brees has nice numbers, but has not taken this game over like everyone thought he would. H-Beck played solid and that is all you need with a good D.
    Have to? Nope.

    But it most certainly helps.
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    • #32
      Funny... I just don't recall hearing "Drew Brees" and "Elite QB" in the same sentence until after the last superbowl. Kind of a chicken and egg deal to some extent.
      When 303 calls... you answer.

      sigpic

      I thought you guys meant this Coach Fox!

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      • #33
        Sorry, but Hasslebeck made several throws that are not defendable. He played at another level today, and your arguement is a wise one, but this is in no way a good example. Seattle won because of Hasslebeck's stellar play
        Cannot wait for the ultimate pass rush tandem that is VonDoom! (Cue cheesy 1920's Dracula music)

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Broncoyearound View Post
          Now if jets win their game then this thread holds some merit. Sanchez is looking pathetic.
          You were saying.

          Jets won and wit a superior front not like so many thought Manning just didnt hae much time and the O-line dominated for the most part. It wasnt as clear bt it was another evidence of a good strong D and front 7 and how well it helps u win.
          2016 Draft: http://forums.denverbroncos.com/show...aft-Watch-list

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          • #35
            I think the fact that the Colts were missing both Dallas Clark and Austin Collie changes that game a lot. I honestly don't see the Jets winning that game with those two guys on the field. Manning didn't have that many weapons tonight, give him more weapons and he would have made them pay. They were also missing other starters on both sides of the ball as well.

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            • #36
              So your saying this is a team game and requires more than a man with a cape under center?
              When 303 calls... you answer.

              sigpic

              I thought you guys meant this Coach Fox!

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              • #37
                It's funny how noone is talking about how Brees and Manning's release/footwork were spectacular today. Could of probably used more "intangibles" huh? Being able to make all the throws and getting the ball to the receivers faster did not make any difference if you do not win. Sanchez had many passes sailing high in the first half but was able to make plays down the stretch. I wonder how many people (Jets Fans) were thinking if Sanchez could play H-Back or Tight End after that first half...NOPE cause he is only a Quaterback and not a "football" player. GO TEBOW!!!!!
                The Train stops here!!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by L-TRAIN View Post
                  It's funny how noone is talking about how Brees and Manning's release/footwork were spectacular today. Could of probably used more "intangibles" huh? Being able to make all the throws and getting the ball to the receivers faster did not make any difference if you do not win. Sanchez had many passes sailing high in the first half but was able to make plays down the stretch. I wonder how many people (Jets Fans) were thinking if Sanchez could play H-Back or Tight End after that first half...NOPE cause he is only a Quaterback and not a "football" player. GO TEBOW!!!!!
                  Now I feel where you're going, but please never put " Rex Grossman 2.0--The Sanchized version" in a comparo with Tebow.


                  Jk'ing!!!!!
                  #swapping

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by flosstein View Post
                    Because it's the last play that counts. Those plays all find their way into the outcome, but when it comes down to it, one play changed the outcome of the game. In the case of tonite's game. It was the last play, before the FG that sealed the Colts fate. Sanchez, who played horrific all game and missed several wide open WR's in stride, sailed a pass to Edwards and he made a great catch. The Colts were blowing coverages all night and probably any other QB in the NFL would've shredded the Colts. But the Jets made enough mistakes to keep Peyton in the game. Even with a stoopid ST penalty the defense came up big and forced a punt. But after the FG they allowed a big kick return, then failed to stop the "Sanchize". So they can wine all they want about the 1st 57mins of the game, but it was the last 3 that mattered the most.
                    You just argued that three plays made the difference, when before it was only one. I'm not going to argue this anymore because no game is decided by one play, it's a commonly known fact. It's not a coincidence that all these players/coaches say all the time a game could have been won/lost at several different points in a game. I think they know a little more about football than we do.
                    Don't give up... Don't ever give up

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by IABronco05 View Post
                      You just argued that three plays made the difference, when before it was only one. I'm not going to argue this anymore because no game is decided by one play, it's a commonly known fact. It's not a coincidence that all these players/coaches say all the time a game could have been won/lost at several different points in a game. I think they know a little more about football than we do.
                      How about we agree to disagree and just call it a night.
                      #swapping

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                      • #41
                        Isn't it, for the most part, a self-fulfilling prophecy that a Super Bowl QB gains status as an "elite" qb by default? Yeah, there are exceptions as have been listed. Dilfer and so forth. Managers for their defense. Aikman? Fun when you're playing behind a line that allows Emmitt 18,000 yards. Those other players might be good enough to change some (many) of the games outcomes. But is Marino an elite QB? I'd say so. Is that silly Charger guy as good as former/Charger New Orlean's Breese? Probably. There is a difference. And it ain't their throwing motions, imo. One plays(ed) for a team capable of winning the Super Bowl, the other didn't. One will wear a ring for life, the other probably never will. One will get glory forever, the other will pass for 50,000 yards and be forgotten in history.

                        The QB doesn't do it all, obviously. But it is his resposibility to be capable and develop a personality that affects the rest of the team to achieve more than it could otherwise. Maybe Marino never had that part. Or maybe his teams (defenses) stunk. I don't remember. One thing nice about Tebow is he already has part one of the recipe that Marino may have never had. He can will a team to do more than it previously thought capable! Now he needs to learn how to throw a consistent out pattern to his right for good measure. I get that. He needs work and needs to improve on basic stuff needed to pick up a normal 3rd and 5. The heroic stuff should be saved for when heroism is required.

                        I get that Denver needs a real qb. They deserve a real qb. If Tebow doesn't prove to be a real qb over his first 3 games next year, I'm gonna be upset personally that the boy couldn't do it. And then I guess I will slink away after allowing you guys to beat me over the head for believing it could happen. I must be stupid, right? I'd deserve it. But what would a young Marino do for you? Probably nothing. If you haven't noticed, the rest of the Broncos pretty much sux. Maybe, one day, someone will come along in the front office to deal with that stuff. Or maybe Elway will now. Getting a new QB every year and blaming the last one should only work 50 times in a row before someone in Denver questions the larger situation.

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                        • #42
                          Great Defense + Tebow = Guranteed Playoff spot, IMO.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tim Tebronco View Post
                            Isn't it, for the most part, a self-fulfilling prophecy that a Super Bowl QB gains status as an "elite" qb by default? Yeah, there are exceptions as have been listed. Dilfer and so forth. Managers for their defense. Aikman? Fun when you're playing behind a line that allows Emmitt 18,000 yards. Those other players might be good enough to change some (many) of the games outcomes. But is Marino an elite QB? I'd say so. Is that silly Charger guy as good as former/Charger New Orlean's Breese? Probably. There is a difference. And it ain't their throwing motions, imo. One plays(ed) for a team capable of winning the Super Bowl, the other didn't. One will wear a ring for life, the other probably never will. One will get glory forever, the other will pass for 50,000 yards and be forgotten in history.

                            The QB doesn't do it all, obviously. But it is his resposibility to be capable and develop a personality that affects the rest of the team to achieve more than it could otherwise. Maybe Marino never had that part. Or maybe his teams (defenses) stunk. I don't remember. One thing nice about Tebow is he already has part one of the recipe that Marino may have never had. He can will a team to do more than it previously thought capable! Now he needs to learn how to throw a consistent out pattern to his right for good measure. I get that. He needs work and needs to improve on basic stuff needed to pick up a normal 3rd and 5. The heroic stuff should be saved for when heroism is required.

                            I get that Denver needs a real qb. They deserve a real qb. If Tebow doesn't prove to be a real qb over his first 3 games next year, I'm gonna be upset personally that the boy couldn't do it. And then I guess I will slink away after allowing you guys to beat me over the head for believing it could happen. I must be stupid, right? I'd deserve it. But what would a young Marino do for you? Probably nothing. If you haven't noticed, the rest of the Broncos pretty much sux. Maybe, one day, someone will come along in the front office to deal with that stuff. Or maybe Elway will now. Getting a new QB every year and blaming the last one should only work 50 times in a row before someone in Denver questions the larger situation.
                            It will take more than 3 games next year.

                            Normally it takes a QB 3-4 years to develop, not half a season's worth of games. By the end of their 3rd year in the league, you know what you have. Certainly even after that a player can get better and better, but by then you should know what type of player a given QB is going to be. There are exceptions yeah, there always are. But that is the norm. Now that 3 year timeline, can be set back real easy. Switching teams, or even offensive systems can set a QB back a year.

                            IMO, the jury is probably going to be out on Tebow through at least next season, and quite possibly another after that. We'll just have to wait and see how he develops.
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                            • #44
                              Sorry but I have to agree that an elite defense is more important than an elite QB. The easy obvious example is Marino. Arguably one of the best, never won. Favre, who many think is one of the best, did win one, but just as much credit goes to Reggie White and the D-line and the huge kick return by Desmond Howard (I could also say Dorsey Levens ran well, but that's debatable).

                              The New England, NY Giant, and Pittsburgh Super Bowls were more defense than elite QB. I will give you that Big Ben had a big drive, but that game was changed by the defensive play before the half that was essentially a 14 point swing. That play was made by the Pittsburgh defense. I will also add that the Baltimore defense won them theirs, but nobody would dispute that.

                              As far as Dallas and Denver go, I would argue that the running games were more important than the QBs on those teams, but what you can't argue is that those teams played really good defense. There is just more proof throughout time (Chicago Bears, Pittsburgh in the 70's, ) of defense being more important.

                              When the offense has been more important, it has seemed to have more to do with inventive offenses (St. Louis, San Fran) than elite QBs. We could argue Montana, but Bill Walsh came up with an offense (west coast) that nobody had seen. Same for the Martz Greatest Show on Turf. I just can't think of an example where a QB was the main or sole reason, but I can for defense. Sorry this was so long.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tim Tebronco View Post
                                Isn't it, for the most part, a self-fulfilling prophecy that a Super Bowl QB gains status as an "elite" qb by default? Yeah, there are exceptions as have been listed. Dilfer and so forth. Managers for their defense. Aikman? Fun when you're playing behind a line that allows Emmitt 18,000 yards. Those other players might be good enough to change some (many) of the games outcomes. But is Marino an elite QB? I'd say so. Is that silly Charger guy as good as former/Charger New Orlean's Breese? Probably. There is a difference. And it ain't their throwing motions, imo. One plays(ed) for a team capable of winning the Super Bowl, the other didn't. One will wear a ring for life, the other probably never will. One will get glory forever, the other will pass for 50,000 yards and be forgotten in history.

                                The QB doesn't do it all, obviously. But it is his resposibility to be capable and develop a personality that affects the rest of the team to achieve more than it could otherwise. Maybe Marino never had that part. Or maybe his teams (defenses) stunk. I don't remember. One thing nice about Tebow is he already has part one of the recipe that Marino may have never had. He can will a team to do more than it previously thought capable! Now he needs to learn how to throw a consistent out pattern to his right for good measure. I get that. He needs work and needs to improve on basic stuff needed to pick up a normal 3rd and 5. The heroic stuff should be saved for when heroism is required.

                                I get that Denver needs a real qb. They deserve a real qb. If Tebow doesn't prove to be a real qb over his first 3 games next year, I'm gonna be upset personally that the boy couldn't do it. And then I guess I will slink away after allowing you guys to beat me over the head for believing it could happen. I must be stupid, right? I'd deserve it. But what would a young Marino do for you? Probably nothing. If you haven't noticed, the rest of the Broncos pretty much sux. Maybe, one day, someone will come along in the front office to deal with that stuff. Or maybe Elway will now. Getting a new QB every year and blaming the last one should only work 50 times in a row before someone in Denver questions the larger situation.
                                The great Gil Brandt, one of the greatest personnel guys in the history of the league, says that you need 24 games to fully evaluate a QB. And if you look at QB's in their first 24-32 games 99% of the time it tells who they are and who they will become. So 6 games is just not fair at all. Now look at Sanchez, when I see him I see Rex Grossman 2.0. He has some flashes, but most of the time he looks like he's thinking about the after party at his penthouse in Hoboken.
                                #swapping

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