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For those who criticized the Run 'N' Shoot offense back in the 90's......

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  • For those who criticized the Run 'N' Shoot offense back in the 90's......

    Isn't the spread essentially the same thing? I actually liked the Run 'N' Shoot, especially the way the Oilers ran it. It's just humorous to me to see most teams incorporate 4 or 5 wideouts today in this pass-happy league when it was so criticized back in the day. JMHO!

  • #2
    Originally posted by serpico View Post
    Isn't the spread essentially the same thing? I actually liked the Run 'N' Shoot, especially the way the Oilers ran it. It's just humorous to me to see most teams incorporate 4 or 5 wideouts today in this pass-happy league when it was so criticized back in the day. JMHO!
    The NFL is very different today.

    That said, no, I don't think a spread formation is the same as the run and gun. Peyton Manning is the king of it, and I'm betting I can outrun him.

    The Patriots do it often as well, as do other teams with immobile quarterbacks. Denver did it as well, and Orton's certainly not a track star.

    No, I don't think these are "run and gun" typed offenses.

    Even if they were, the NFL is different today. Even so... I still can't think of any aside from the Eagles with Vick, and he's kind of a unique guy.

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    • #3
      Actually the offensive Peyton Manning runs is the evolution of the Run and Shoot. When Tom Moore (colts long time offensive coordinator), took over the OC duties in Detroit, a Run and Shoot offense....he didn't neccesarily trash the run and shoot. What he did was, was remove a receiver and bring in a tight end, for pass protection reason.

      The 1995 Detroit Lions offense was the top offense in the league that year, and was the first to have 2 wide outs over 100 receptions and a third over 80. It's roots totally are from Run and Shoot, just tweeked. Now a lot of teams that employ the spread, have evolved to rely more on the short passes than the Run and Shoot used.

      And don't use a mobile qb versus pocket qb in this argument. Altough many pocket passers use it, in the college ranks the spread is usually ran by a mobile qb.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Alastor View Post
        The NFL is very different today.

        That said, no, I don't think a spread formation is the same as the run and gun. Peyton Manning is the king of it, and I'm betting I can outrun him.

        The Patriots do it often as well, as do other teams with immobile quarterbacks. Denver did it as well, and Orton's certainly not a track star.

        No, I don't think these are "run and gun" typed offenses.

        Even if they were, the NFL is different today. Even so... I still can't think of any aside from the Eagles with Vick, and he's kind of a unique guy.
        The run and shoot offense has nothing to do with the mobility of the QB....

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        • #5
          They're not really related. Obviously, both the run and shoot concept and the spread concept have been the subject of much evolution, cross-pollination, etc. over the years.

          But if either term has any meaning, and you distilled it to its simplest formula, IMO it would be the following:

          Run and shoot: the offense involves receivers that do a particular thing, on the run, in response to the type of coverage. In other words, the offense is built around the receiver and the quarterback making the same read after the snap, during the route, and delivering the ball to a certain place. For example, if the corner back is running on the inside of the receiver, it's established in advance that the receiver will do an out. Run and shoot is about post-snap reads.

          Spread: the offense involves the use of formations, pre-snap, that force the defense to tip its hand in some way, and the read on what will happen is made pre-snap. Spread is more about spacing the field, and making some reads about what is going to be open by looking at what the defense does in lining up. Spread does not convey the concept that the receivers are making reads on the fly.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Jay3 View Post
            They're not really related. Obviously, both the run and shoot concept and the spread concept have been the subject of much evolution, cross-pollination, etc. over the years.

            But if either term has any meaning, and you distilled it to its simplest formula, IMO it would be the following:

            Run and shoot: the offense involves receivers that do a particular thing, on the run, in response to the type of coverage. In other words, the offense is built around the receiver and the quarterback making the same read after the snap, during the route, and delivering the ball to a certain place. For example, if the corner back is running on the inside of the receiver, it's established in advance that the receiver will do an out. Run and shoot is about post-snap reads.

            Spread: the offense involves the use of formations, pre-snap, that force the defense to tip its hand in some way, and the read on what will happen is made pre-snap. Spread is more about spacing the field, and making some reads about what is going to be open by looking at what the defense does in lining up. Spread does not convey the concept that the receivers are making reads on the fly.
            Wikipedia actually has a great run down of the run and shoot:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_and_shoot_offense

            I've always been a huge Bronco fan, but I loved watching Warren Moon & Co run the Run and Shoot offense in Houston. They were my 2nd favorite team back then, and were a blast to watch.

            Many, if not most team incorporate some of the principals of the Run and Shoot in some form or another in their playbook currently.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
              The run and shoot offense has nothing to do with the mobility of the QB....
              yep

              For example imo the best team that ran the Run and Shoot was Houston Oilers with Warren Moon who made the playoffs 7 straight years. For those who do not know Moon was not that mobile of a QB.

              The "Shoot" part of the Oilers defense was Moon throwing to Haywood Jeffires, Curtis Duncan, Ernest Givins, Drew Hill and other good WRs. One year the team was 4 yards away from having 3 WRs with 1000 yards or more (1991, Hill 1109 yards, Jeffiries 1181 yards, Givens 996 yards). These 7 years the Oilers put these 4 WRs into 8 Pro Bowls and 1 All Pro. This is even more amazing when you look at some of the big name WRs playing in those years.

              The "Run" part was Lorenzo White, Mike Rozier and Allen Pinkett. It only produced one good year if you look at the individual numbers but the idea of the Run and Shoot was not to be dominate with the running game but just to keep the other defense off balance. They would run without Fbs and TEs for the most part. As I recall they did not even have TEs on their team at first...they just used extra OL in goaline/short yardage.

              The key part was Warren Moon. 6 Pro Bowls in this system including 2 years of throwing 4600+ yards in 90 and 91 when it was HARD to throw that many yards.

              The thing is the offense did not protect QBs very well. In 10 years Moon was sacked 40+ 3 times and 30+ 6 times. 92 and 88 were the only years he was not sacked atleast 23 times (12 in 88 and 16 in 92)

              The offense is coming back because since the early 90s rules have changed.

              1. OTs are allowed to play off the line of scrimmage which gives them an advantage over speed rushers.

              2. One of the strats to stop the Run and Shoot was the beat the QB up. Even if he was not sacked if he was hit allot then it would slow the offense down. The QB hitting rules would make this harder today. For example you could take 2-3 steps AFTER the ball is thrown and still hit the QB back then, now if you take more then 1 step after the ball is thrown and then hit the QB it is probably a penalty.

              3. Another way to slow the Run and Shoot down was to maul the WRs. Can still play serious bump and run today but not as physical as it was back then.
              Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
                The run and shoot offense has nothing to do with the mobility of the QB....
                Why'd they call it a "run and shoot" then? What's the run for?

                That offense was designed to have a mobile pocket, bootlegs, and to present the opportunity for a quarterback to run or to throw, forcing the defenses to spread out and open up receivers down field.

                "Run."

                It's not a reference to the halfback.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                  Why'd they call it a "run and shoot" then? What's the run for?

                  That offense was designed to have a mobile pocket, bootlegs, and to present the opportunity for a quarterback to run or to throw, forcing the defenses to spread out and open up receivers down field.

                  "Run."

                  It's not a reference to the halfback.
                  I always thought it was a reference to the WR's running down field, but I don't know for sure...
                  sigpic
                  Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                    I always thought it was a reference to the WR's running down field, but I don't know for sure...
                    I checked. I stand corrected. You guys are right.

                    My bad. I always thought it referred to the mobility of the quarterback. Perhaps that's due to the quarterbacks who used that system the most (Moon and Cunningham).

                    Anyway, I stand corrected.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                      Why'd they call it a "run and shoot" then? What's the run for?

                      That offense was designed to have a mobile pocket, bootlegs, and to present the opportunity for a quarterback to run or to throw, forcing the defenses to spread out and open up receivers down field.

                      "Run."

                      It's not a reference to the halfback.
                      Nevermind. I didn't see your latest post.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Alastor View Post
                        I checked. I stand corrected. You guys are right.

                        My bad. I always thought it referred to the mobility of the quarterback. Perhaps that's due to the quarterbacks who used that system the most (Moon and Cunningham).

                        Anyway, I stand corrected.
                        Well you're not necessarily wrong either. The original concept (supposedly) of the offense was indeed based on creating a "rolling" pocket for the QB to move around in. Not necessarily to run but just enough movement to create the appearance of the threat to run. It has since been evolved for some time to use a traditional drop back QB.

                        Here's a little excerpt:
                        There are a few ancillary points that have been part of the offense, but to a varying degree. For my purpose in this series they are important but not imperative.

                        # Quarterback movement. In Ellison's original shoot and the versions used by Mouse Davis and in the NFL, the quarterback always began with a "half-roll" or semi-"sprint out," where he moved the pocket and attacked the corner. If you watch the video below of Portland State (now coached by run and shoot veterans Jerry Glanville and Mouse Davis; Portland State is in white and black), you'll clearly see what this looks like. This comported with Ellison's original vision of the run and shoot, and the fact that pass defenders had to contend with the threat of the quarterback running at them distorted the coverage. Nevertheless, some teams now have evolved to more of a dropback look, and June Jones now at SMU uses something of a hybrid. Moreover, what pass protection schemes you want to use will influence how you have your quarterback drop back.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Southtown View Post
                          Well you're not necessarily wrong either. The original concept (supposedly) of the offense was indeed based on creating a "rolling" pocket for the QB to move around in. Not necessarily to run but just enough movement to create the appearance of the threat to run. It has since been evolved for some time to use a traditional drop back QB.

                          Here's a little excerpt:
                          Hmm this is interesting, I do not remember Moon being very mobile at all.

                          I know it was a different offense in college then what Houston ran.

                          Looking up Det it does seem they used more mobile QBs. In 89 they had 8 rushing TDs between their two starting QBs. Det also had Berry Sanders so probably was one of the few teams who had more "Run" then "Shoot"

                          Altanta used Chris Miller and Jeff George and neither were very mobile imo. They made the playoffs in 91 and 95.

                          Apparently the Chargers had a Run and Shoot team in 1991. I am not sure about this...need to talk to my Charger friends. Anyways that year the QB (Friesz) had 11 rushing attempts but the backs were Butts, Bernstein and Harmon....that is a REALLY good collection of backs.

                          Also had no idea that Indy was a Run and Shoot team at one time but I think the same obscure article used as a source for the SD Run and Shoot is used as the source for Indy Run and Shoot.
                          Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                          • #14
                            From my understanding, once Houston and the pro teams that ran it successful incorporated this offense, I think this is the "evolution" that used a more traditional dropback QB.

                            The poster child for the current Run-N-Shoot offense is June Jones, formerly w/ Hawaii. Think Timmy Chang & Colt Brennen.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What I remember was that Houston was really the team that ran Run and Shoot. I don't know that anyone else did it with any regularity. Detroit ran something like a modern spread offense but not exactly what I remember of "Run and Shoot". I also remember that for a few years everyone thought it would be the next big thing in the NFL but then quickly went away.

                              I do think there are a lot a similarities between the Run and Shoot and how some teams run the spread offense. The main thing that made the Run and Shoot was the options routes. Basically you have four receivers each with multiple routes. It's a very difficult offense and requires a very smart quarterback and receivers to pull off. Joe Tiller's version of the spread also relied on option routes a lot. The main difference was that Tiller's spread was mostly short passes with an occasional slant and go once the defense started cheating up. Run and Shoot generally had longer routes.

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