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  • Originally posted by soloking View Post
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-impress-hoge/

    Tebow’s preseason performance fails to impress Hoge
    Posted by Michael David Smith on August 17, 2011, 11:52 AM EDT
    Tim Tebow AP

    ESPN’s Merril Hoge has staked a claim as the foremost critic of Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow. And if you think Tebow’s 6-for-7, 91-yard preseason performance last week is going to change Hoge’s mind, think again.

    Hoge said today that he thinks Tebow’s mechanics are such a mess that there’s simply no turning him into an effective NFL quarterback.

    “You’ve got to look at a couple flaws that Tim Tebow had at Florida and still has in the National Football League that I don’t believe ever get better,” Hoge said. “First of all, his delivery is such an elongated motion that you have to have a complete, clear pocket for him to be successful down the field. If you don’t have that, you’re going to struggle.”

    In the Broncos’ preseason game against the Cowboys, Tebow completed a 43-yard pass to Matt Willis on a ball that traveled about 50 yards in the air and hit Wills right in the hands, but what Hoge saw was Tebow having all day to pass on the play — and needing it because it takes him so long to get the ball out.

    Yes, he completes it, but that’s a perfect setting,” Hoge said. “In the National Football League, almost 50 percent of all throws are under duress. So you’re not going to have that every time.”

    Before last year’s NFL draft, there was a lot of talk about Tebow changing his throwing motion to become more of an NFL-style pocket passer. Hoge says it hasn’t worked, and Tebow’s throwing motion is the same as ever.

    His accuracy really struggles from that elongated motion,” Hoge said. “When you have a guy that elongated in his motion, he’s less accurate, he’s not as quick throwing the football. . . . That entices teams to blitz more. He takes more hits during the course of the game.”

    According to Hoge, Tebow has developed so many bad habits as a passer that it’s too late for him to change. And he said that any player on the Broncos can plainly see that Tebow has no business being their starter.

    That will never change — that will always be there,” Hoge said. “If they start Tim Tebow, players are not stupid. That coaching staff will have no respect from the players.”
    Originally posted by JakeNbake View Post
    I can't argue facts so I attack the person rather than the argument...


    That's a sign.
    Hey Jake, those aren't facts. Those are opinions. Nice try.


    sigpic


    FA Targets: DT Jason Jones, DT Pat Simms, S Reggie Smith, LB Dan Connor



    :cool:

    Comment


    • Originally posted by phaytal View Post
      I beg to differ. 4 of Tebow's offensive linemen from the 2009 season are currently playing in the NFL. He had a spectacular line for his entire career at UF.

      It wasnt the line that got worse, it was Tebow. He didnt have Percy Harvin to bail him out with circus catches anymore, so he was reluctant to just throw it up for grabs. Thats why he took more sacks.
      His Heisman season he had a starting line that went undrafted, and have together started a total 0 games in the NFL.
      What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?
      I don't know and I don't care

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Garywolf001 View Post
        A lot of that depends on the situation of the throw, but your right that first throw is ugly LOL! Is anyone sure he didn't pop his elbow out on that one? Tebows biggest problem isn't just his throw, he won't or can't read the second drop, after that first read, if it's covered, he starts to run to the left. Having a shorter, quicker, throw gives a QB time to see if the second guy is open, but what's the point if your already running past the LOS. I think Tebow will fix this eventually, myself I'm tired of drafting QBs and if they don't perform in a perfect west coast style out the gate they get traded. I get that the West coast style offense wins a lot of games, heck it won us two SBs. I just think some QBs need more time to fit that than 1 year, Tebow obviously needs more time, so we give it to him and win with the guy who fits the team best this year.
        P.S. I would love to sit the bench on the Broncos side and get paid $9 mill for holding a clipboard, that would rule!
        Yeah, Tebow's not comfortable making the reads with the bullets flying. What QB can play if they're not comfortable in the pocket with a pass rush?

        It's funny you bring this up, but I noticed that Tebow had happy feet too. If he went to a second read, his feet would get real happy. You can't throw accurately with good form if you don't set your feet. You just can't.

        And yes, Tebow needs more time to develop. It seems like Tebow's really regressed in his game this year. A part of me wonders how much of it is the new throwing motion. I think he tried to change too much too soon. Now he's got no reference point, and he's thinking, and not playing.

        Comment


        • This is what you expected, right?

          Here you have a young quarterback perpetually impatient with the play, ready to trust his legs as much as a good throwing lane and unafraid of a hit in a way that terrifies his coaches, and he could get pushed into the starting role -- at least partially, you could argue -- because of his name. He's had a few starts, so there's little to project off of. "At first, he wanted to run every time he got back there," says his coach, who insists there is not a single play in the playbook designed for his quarterback to run. "I think he could be a running back in this league," a teammate says. "I've seen [him] run over linebackers and then bounce back to the huddle."

          And to go with the running problem, the lefty with the big college stats doesn't have a big arm. But he knows the angles, and how to explain away flaws. "As far as arm strength goes, there are people who have been successful with less. Joe Montana, to name one," the quarterback says. "John Elway was 'confused' before he 'arrived.'"

          It all makes Tim Tebow so hard to evaluate. Thing is, these quotes aren't about Tebow -- they're about Steve Young.

          Year of the Quarterback
          ESPN has dedicated 2011 to examining one of the most crucial positions in all of sports -- the quarterback.
          Year of the QB »

          Those coaching frustrations, the teammate views, the player himself -- it's all from a Chicago Tribune story that was written eight months before Tebow was born (he's 24 now), about a 25-year-old Young, who was being handed the keys to the Tampa Bay offense in November 1986. It's a reminder that the NFL has always had issues with this type of quarterback -- the kid who can pass, but a lot of his instincts don't fit the traditional NFL model.

          Ultimately, Young struggled and was traded away from Tampa in frustration; he was viewed as a bust. He didn't become a starter, then a star, for years. Perhaps Tebow also will be traded at some point, a wasted pick, a project for another coach. But there's also good reason to think that Tebow can be a very good NFL quarterback because, in the same way Tampa once miscalculated on Young, there's reason to think we haven't done a good job of accurately deciphering what a quarterback like Tebow can do.


          In a great GQ profile on Tebow from 2009, regarding Tebow's NFL prospects, Jason Fagone wrote that he "has a way of making you feel like there's no relevant history to contend with. Like you can just sweep that all aside … the statistics and the metastatistical arguments about what the statistics aren't capturing."

          We can already see that there is relevant history in a player such as Young, if not a certain outcome. And now, there's also a statistic that better captures Tebow. Total QBR shows that Tebow's best game as a pro was an 8-of-16 passing performance against Oakland in which his QBR was 83.3. Of his three starts, this game also had Tebow's highest passer rating, at 100.5. But his QBR score is so high because it encapsulates that Tebow also ran for 78 yards on 8 carries and, in one remarkable play, turned a third-and-24 into a 40-yard touchdown run.

          This is nothing new for Tebow -- he ran for 2,947 yards and 57 touchdowns at Florida and, if you add only rush attempts and sacks, was hit close to 800 times without missing a start -- but most traditional QB statistics don't recognize that. Although QBR sounds built for Tebow, a brilliant runner and merely developing passer, it really helps guys such as Josh Freeman and Aaron Rodgers more. Both are fantastic throwers who quietly run often and effectively. Still, in that game, according to QBR, Tebow created just as many expected points with his legs as he did with his arm, and did so on just nine total runs.

          The bottom line is this: If you want to evaluate Tebow as a quarterback, you have to understand that what he lacks as a passer can be made up for by what he brings with his legs. This isn't a new argument, but it now has additional context. For instance, QBR shows that quarterbacks who can run are vastly more dangerous in the red zone -- if you recall the famous Tebow jump passes at Florida, you know exactly what this means. It also speaks to development. If you consider this running stuff just a youthful compulsion that NFL coaches must break out of the young colt, you're wrong. Tebow, at 23, ran for 227 yards on just 43 carries last season, including six touchdowns. Michael Vick at 31 hasn't kicked running -- he topped 600 yards last year. At 37, Young ran for 454 yards and six touchdowns.

          Yes, players slow down. But it's not about age; guys who can run, will.

          Evaluators are right -- Tebow is not yet a quality NFL passer. Too often his accuracy on even simple throws is poor, and he tends to hold back on throws into the conventional, but tight, NFL windows, those hanging tires through which quarterbacks must be able to throw. Still, his total QBR score outpaced that of teammate Kyle Orton last season -- Orton is a much better passer but a statue in the pocket, costing the Broncos points with sacks -- and Tebow's 82.1 passer rating in 2010 would have been the best among rookies if it had stretched for 16 games. Is there reason to think Tebow's accuracy will grow? Well, why not? We've had this argument before.

          As a college passer, he threw for 9,286 yards at a 67.1 completion percentage. He had 88 TD passes against just 15 INTs. This was all out of an offense that won't be coming to an NFL stadium near you, but compare that with Vick's final year at Virginia Tech, where he completed just 54.2 percent of throws and threw just nine TDs against seven INTs. Vick is a superior athlete to Tebow and has a bigger arm, but he's also more brittle. That Vick played quarterback at an MVP level past the age of 30 -- as he did for much of last year in the same dual-threat format that Tebow will offer -- given his own battle with learning to throw in an NFL offense, makes the idea that Tebow somehow can't do the same extremely short-sighted.

          Tebow, were he to start in Week 1, would continue to be as raw a passer as you can find in the NFL. But this unrefined product is a lot better than some believe, and he might even be more valuable than Denver's other option.

          Last year in Vick's "Monday Night Football" masterpiece, a six-touchdown performance against the Redskins that included two running touchdowns, Young gushed that the performance exemplified "the fruition of the position." It was a nice thought, a nod to the totality of quarterbacking that we haven't previously measured. It was also kind, given that, in that total sense, Young was clearly forgetting about himself.

          And people who give Tebow no chance to succeed as an NFL quarterback are being similarly forgetful.


          Chris Sprow is a senior editor for ESPN The Magazine and Insider. He reports and edits on many sports and works year-round with Mel Kiper on NFL draft coverage. He also oversees ESPN's Rumor Central and has been a regular guest on ESPN networks in that role. You can find his ESPN archives here and on Twitter here.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
            I'm a Tebow fan and I hate to be a glass half empty kinda guy but I don't know that I read it that way.
            Same.

            Smells like desperation. Like maybe John can get through to him, because the coaching staff can't.

            But, maybe he's just tryin to help the kid out too. Who knows.
            sigpic

            Hooray, beer!

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            • I guess I'm inclined to think however it came about, John wouldn't waste his time if he didn't think it was worth it......
              sigpic
              Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

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              • Well lets hope he keeps working with him through the season, if he feels comfortable with him this time next year let him start if not well I guess we're looking for a new QB (assuming Orton is allowed to walk)

                One way or another we've got bigger issues to worry about that QB right now and I think any of the 3 will be good enough (not great) to keep us afloat for right now.

                Hopefully come week 1 our defense will suprise us but with the recent injuries I'm not gonna lie I am somewhat concerned.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • LAWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  Hodge just said his top 5 QBs in the NFL and he said this-

                  5. Drew Brees
                  4. Aaron Rodgers
                  3. Tom Brady
                  2. Peyton Manning
                  1. Ben Roethlisberger.....

                  I actually really like Roethlisberber and think he is underrated usually, but there is absolutely NO WAY he is better than Brady and Manning.... Jesus this guy is an idiot. He was then asked where he rates Tim Tebow and he smirked-

                  "CAN WE GO INTO THE HUNDREDS?"

                  How does this guy have a job???

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
                    Same.

                    Smells like desperation. Like maybe John can get through to him, because the coaching staff can't.

                    But, maybe he's just tryin to help the kid out too. Who knows.
                    Cory, you've got to have some of the most interesting posts on this board. And that's why I love having discussions with you.

                    How does it smell like desperation? It's not really a desperate situation. I can think of 2 "worst case scenarios" when it comes to Tebow. Worst case scenario 1 is that Tebow's not the guy, we draft a new QB or sign Kyle Orton or Brady Quinn to an extension. Worst case scenario 2 is that Tebow is the guy, but he needs more time and we sign Kyle Orton or Brady Quinn to an extension.

                    Either way, Tebow's not starting this year. Either way, the Broncos still have Brady Quinn and Kyle Orton. I guess I just don't understand where the desperation comes in.

                    So I'm more inclined to believe Elway wants to help the kid out. And Tebow needs all of the help he can get.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by the0rangecrush View Post
                      His Heisman season he had a starting line that went undrafted, and have together started a total 0 games in the NFL.
                      Nice try, but you are very, very wrong.

                      In 2007, Jim Tartt, Maurkice Pouncey and Michael Pouncey were considered the best interior core in the nation. In fact, Michael Pouncey was such an athletic offensive linemen, he was asked to switch to DT late in the 2007 season to help fill a void.

                      Lets not forget Jason Watkins who anchored the right side of the line, and All SEC tackle Phil Trautwein.

                      The Pouncey brother and Watkins, and Trautwein are all currently starters in the NFL, and Tartt would have had a great NFL career except he suffered a career ending injury.

                      Maybe you should do some Googling before you embarrass yourself with made up 'facts'.

                      Comment


                      • I'm sorry but Hoge is correct in his assesment, but its up to Tebow to prove him wrong. No matter how sensative you get about it, its true.

                        Once Tebow finally gets comfortable takin snaps from center, and gets his footwork corrected....after that THEN he is still considered a rookie cause at that point he'll need to start learning how to read NFL defenses and going thru progressions. He's right by saying teams will blitz him, adn then assign a spy when he runs. It's easy to see but Tebow can still prove everybody wrong, but his style is not ideal for the NFL...sorry
                        dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

                        I tried to warn ya.

                        Comment


                        • Cecil, also said that Fox, Elway, and Xanders are all committed to Tebow!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Freyaka View Post
                            Well lets hope he keeps working with him through the season, if he feels comfortable with him this time next year let him start if not well I guess we're looking for a new QB (assuming Orton is allowed to walk)

                            One way or another we've got bigger issues to worry about that QB right now and I think any of the 3 will be good enough (not great) to keep us afloat for right now.

                            Hopefully come week 1 our defense will suprise us but with the recent injuries I'm not gonna lie I am somewhat concerned.
                            I absolutely agree with everything, except I think TT will be great to say the least
                            "Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion." Jimmy Ruffin

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                            • Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
                              Cory, you've got to have some of the most interesting posts on this board. And that's why I love having discussions with you.

                              How does it smell like desperation? It's not really a desperate situation. I can think of 2 "worst case scenarios" when it comes to Tebow. Worst case scenario 1 is that Tebow's not the guy, we draft a new QB or sign Kyle Orton or Brady Quinn to an extension. Worst case scenario 2 is that Tebow is the guy, but he needs more time and we sign Kyle Orton or Brady Quinn to an extension.

                              Either way, Tebow's not starting this year. Either way, the Broncos still have Brady Quinn and Kyle Orton. I guess I just don't understand where the desperation comes in.
                              Desperation is a strong term, and one I rescind. I'll change my opinion to:

                              Starting QB's don't need private tutoring lessons after practice from QB's that retired almost 15 years ago.

                              Its obvious that they still wanna see what he can do. I doubt John would waste his time.
                              sigpic

                              Hooray, beer!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by InElwayWeTrust View Post
                                LAWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                Hodge just said his top 5 QBs in the NFL and he said this-

                                5. Drew Brees
                                4. Aaron Rodgers
                                3. Tom Brady
                                2. Peyton Manning
                                1. Ben Roethlisberger.....

                                I actually really like Roethlisberber and think he is underrated usually, but there is absolutely NO WAY he is better than Brady and Manning.... Jesus this guy is an idiot. He was then asked where he rates Tim Tebow and he smirked-

                                "CAN WE GO INTO THE HUNDREDS?"

                                How does this guy have a job???
                                Also odd because when you think about it, Tebow and Big Ben have similar playing styles.
                                Decimating the competition, leaving in the wake a blind ambition.

                                elecshoc
                                You will be for ever known as the truth see-er

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