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Tim Tebow Part 4 (Merged)

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  • Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
    Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see it that way at all.

    I think Tebow's got some things to work on before he can get a seat at the table for the 1st team reps. Like I've been saying to Jay3, he's got everything you can't teach. Now he needs to hone and develop the things you can teach that he's never been taught before. I have no doubt he can get there. But it's going to take some time.

    That doesn't mean that I hate Tebow or that I want to see him out of the league. I'm not sure if you were talking about me specifically, but saying that about anyone seems kind of conspiratory and paranoid.

    Tebow got a chance in the preseason game. He did okay, but he looked shaky. He missed some reads. Now when Tebow's killing it and is obviously better than Kyle Orton by a mile in practice and in the games, and he's still not getting a chance, then you can say something like that. And I'll be right there with you. But for now, he's got some developing to do.

    BTW, even with all his flaws, I still would've taken Tebow with a 1st round pick. Especially a 2nd 1st round picks. Because I think the guy could be a game changer...as in one of the best ever. But he's got to learn to do the little things. Every starting QB does.
    I wasn't talking about you, I don't think you're a Tebow hater, but I do think you're naive. You talk about his 1 1/4 quarters of play in one preseason game, and apparently completely forget that we saw some pretty special stuff from him when he started the last 3 games of last season. It is amazing to me the short memories that sports fans, including you, seem to sometimes have. Every rookie is going to struggle, with multiple things. All the rookies this year will struggle, and already showed signs of that in their own preseason games. I keep going back to ONE SINGLE STAT to justify my stance that Tebow should be starting over Orton. When Tebow is the starter, the team scores more points. I don't care if he throws the ball right handed or between his legs. I don't care if his throwing wind-up is like a girl's softball pitcher. If the team scores more points when he's under center, there is no other logical reason to start someone else. There is no logical justification for saying that Orton gives the Broncos the "best chance to win right now". He didn't give them the best chance to win last year, why is this year any different?

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    • Originally posted by broncolee View Post
      If the Broncos have a winning season or at least miss out on the chance to draft one of the top quarterback prospects next year, Tebow will get his shot next season.
      Yep. 10 char...

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      • Originally posted by ohiotebow View Post
        I wasn't talking about you, I don't think you're a Tebow hater, but I do think you're naive. You talk about his 1 1/4 quarters of play in one preseason game, and apparently completely forget that we saw some pretty special stuff from him when he started the last 3 games of last season. It is amazing to me the short memories that sports fans, including you, seem to sometimes have. Every rookie is going to struggle, with multiple things. All the rookies this year will struggle, and already showed signs of that in their own preseason games. I keep going back to ONE SINGLE STAT to justify my stance that Tebow should be starting over Orton. When Tebow is the starter, the team scores more points. I don't care if he throws the ball right handed or between his legs. I don't care if his throwing wind-up is like a girl's softball pitcher. If the team scores more points when he's under center, there is no other logical reason to start someone else. There is no logical justification for saying that Orton gives the Broncos the "best chance to win right now". He didn't give them the best chance to win last year, why is this year any different?
        No he didnt when you look at everything and the coaches and front office can see right through this craziness.

        You think Ortons a bum and with that process the logic will never be right to you and you will never understands what the EFX is doing .

        If Tim keeps progressing he will get his shot .
        "(Touchdowns) are the goal," Orton said. "You can run for as many yards as you want, throw for as many yards as you want, but you have to convert to seven points. I think we're going to be explosive, be dynamic, be versatile."

        "Perception is everything in this league, and a lot of times, unless you're a self-promoter, it can become negative," - Kyle Orton

        Kyle Orton Army member #83 :logo: :smug:

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        • Originally posted by kingpins9 View Post
          Precisely. Even Peyton Manning throws Int's under duress.
          Peyton Manning has some of the happiest feet in the NFL. Not that he's looking to run, but you can watch innumerable shots of him chopping his feet. Been doing it since his days at TN.

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          • Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
            Desperation is a strong term, and one I rescind. I'll change my opinion to:

            Starting QB's don't need private tutoring lessons after practice from QB's that retired almost 15 years ago.

            Its obvious that they still wanna see what he can do. I doubt John would waste his time.
            Well, that's why Tebow's not a starter.

            I think Tebow's got everything you can't teach. The problem is he still needs to learn some things that should've been taught. I don't think an NFL QB should have to work so hard to be comfortable from the pocket, to make quick reads, and to take snaps from center. Maybe that's just me.

            That being said, if Tebow has the right attitude, which is understandably in question by you (and me too to a point), then I think he has the potential to be a game changer in the league. Not just in Denver. But he needs to get his head on straight and he needs to put the work in. No book tours. No commercials. No more interviews. Just work.

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            • Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
              It's not about the checkdown as much as it's about the reads themselves. In the above example, he made 2 reads and ran. A lot of people say that Tebow won't last doing that. I don't know. Maybe he's Jim Taylor (FB for the Packers in the days of Lombardi) reborn. But he needs to make more than 2 reads before running. He has to understand if there are 4 people clumped in the middle of the field then that means the field is empty somewhere else.

              I wasn't trying to say Tebow can't play in the league. I'm just saying he's got a lot of work to do to play in the league as effectively as he can. He has to understand that every D has a hole in it, and what each hole for each D is without even thinking about it. He knew deep routes were off. Thomas was covered. Who's left?

              Kyle Orton starting his rookie year was out of necessity. The 1st team guy got hurt. The 2nd team guy fell apart on the field. The rookie did well enough in preseason. Who would you go with?

              I think any QB can make that quick read. It's about confidence in that read. It's all about confidence in the pocket. I hear about Tebow seeing the quick read and then hesitating. He's not confident in it. He needs to see it more before he can be confident. The entire game against Dallas, watch his feet. You can tell he wants to get out of that pocket and run. He's got one foot out the door before he takes the snap. I'd love to see him slow down. But he's not going to slow down until the game slows down for him.

              In the end, he's a young QB. All of this is what young QBs do.
              But my point is this, and it's hard say it clearly -- when Tebow makes his "one or two reads and takes off," he's usually RIGHT that the first or second wasn't there. So all he's got to do is, with time and experience, learn to reset and look for something cheaper and shorter, or on the other side of the field. It seems like the least of my concerns, but to his critics it's the NUMBER ONE thing.

              Contrast with Mark Sanchez -- I have seen a serious and persistent problem with that guy NOT being able to pull the trigger down the field. He learned how to dump off and he does that way too much. At times, I have had the same problem with Brady Quinn.

              I worry about a young QB who can't "silence the fear" and pull the trigger on a downfield throw.

              And Tebow does that -- when I see him tuck or look tentative, I usually agree that the downfield throw wasn't there. He seems to have the guts and accuracy to make that throw when it's there. (I'm not just talking about bombs, but good 20 yard throws).

              So he's got that promise. I think learning to dump off instead of run is not a problem. I'd be more worried if people could show me "Look, he tucked and ran and there was a receiver open down the field, i.e. the primary or secondary was open and he wouldn't throw it."

              That's all I'm saying -- he's an odd combination of pluses. And the things he lacks seem fixable with experience.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
                No he didnt when you look at everything and the coaches and front office can see right through this craziness.

                You think Ortons a bum and with that process the logic will never be right to you and you will never understands what the EFX is doing .

                If Tim keeps progressing he will get his shot .
                Like I said, no logical reason.

                You going to tell me next that Tim Tebow doesn't really wear #15?

                Originally posted by catsigater View Post
                Peyton Manning has some of the happiest feet in the NFL. Not that he's looking to run, but you can watch innumerable shots of him chopping his feet. Been doing it since his days at TN.
                Exactly. I've always thought it was funny how Manning is constantly bouncing his feet all over the place when he's looking to throw. Doesn't seem to affect him negatively, and it doesn't mean he's getting ready to run. Although I did love that bootleg he did last year, don't remember which game, but NOBODY was expecting that.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
                  You think Ortons a bum and with that process the logic will never be right to you and you will never understands what the EFX is doing .
                  It really does come down to this -- the "Tebow thing" is inextricably linked to the "Orton thing."

                  "Bum" is a little harsh, but I'm ready to move on.

                  My NFL experience is forever affected by past experience -- the Falcons (when I was a fan) stuck with Chris Miller for years, and he seemed okay but not quite good enough. They traded away Favre during this time (though he was making that easier with his immaturity). But it affected me, and made me always quicker to "try the young kid" instead of supposedly staying with the steady hand.

                  Same with Jake Delhomme, who I consider Orton to be very similar to. I've wanted the Panthers to accelerate developing another young QB since the year after the Super Bowl. I believe their "off schedule" QB development literally trashed the franchise and ultimately led to Fox leaving. There's times when you have to have some direction at the QB position even when there's a Hasselbeck or Delhomme on the roster.

                  If Kyle Orton does turn out to be a franchise quarterback, it does totally change the math of the whole situation. I've got him penciled in as a Jake Delhomme, and right now I don't think I'm wrong.

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                  • I wonder if elway spends any time with Quinn or Orton after practice. I think it is totally encouraging. Obviously we will all see it through our own lenses, but through mine, I see a great QB wanting to bring out potential in a young one.

                    If Elway thought Orton or Quinn were the future here, then I think he would just spend his time with them, making them better. Certainly Orton could use some Elway instruction on how to perform in 4th quarters and other clutch situations, so I find it interesting he decides to put his valuable time into Tebow.

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                    • I think most evidence points to the fact that Elway and Fox dont see Orton as the future here. Certainly they watched a lot of film on Orton and Tebow in the offseason, and still wanted to trade Orton. I dont think it was a surprise to them that Orton was the better QB right now and would start if they couldnt get anything for him. They are not stupid. They were ready to trade him because they didnt see him as our long term solution.

                      I am not saying Tebow is for sure, but it appears Elway wants to find out, and I wouldnt be shocked if it happened later in the season if we are under performing. If I were a legendary QB that could scramble and was known for taking games into my hands, not always the highest rated QB in stats, but could always win, and i looked at Orton and Tebow, I know who I would look to for my future. That being said, I still think Orton is a solid QB and if he has a great team behind him can do a lot.

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                      • Originally posted by ohiotebow View Post
                        I wasn't talking about you, I don't think you're a Tebow hater, but I do think you're naive. You talk about his 1 1/4 quarters of play in one preseason game, and apparently completely forget that we saw some pretty special stuff from him when he started the last 3 games of last season. It is amazing to me the short memories that sports fans, including you, seem to sometimes have. Every rookie is going to struggle, with multiple things. All the rookies this year will struggle, and already showed signs of that in their own preseason games. I keep going back to ONE SINGLE STAT to justify my stance that Tebow should be starting over Orton. When Tebow is the starter, the team scores more points. I don't care if he throws the ball right handed or between his legs. I don't care if his throwing wind-up is like a girl's softball pitcher. If the team scores more points when he's under center, there is no other logical reason to start someone else. There is no logical justification for saying that Orton gives the Broncos the "best chance to win right now". He didn't give them the best chance to win last year, why is this year any different?
                        No. No. No.

                        I've been making your "one single stat scoring more points" argument all offseason. The Broncos as a team scored 25 points per game with Tebow under center last year. They scored 20.7 points per game with Orton under center. Keep in mind that the year before with Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler, Orton-led offenses scored 20.3 points per game.

                        Here's the problem. When in practice, where everyone else earns their spot, Kyle Orton is head and shoulders above Tebow. How can you claim to have an open competition and start a guy who is worse in the QB competition? You can't. You have to start the better player. Otherwise, you don't earn your spot on the team, spots are given. That's when a football team becomes political and not survival of the fittest. You lose the team that way. You have to be fair and you have to give what's earned. If Tebow had been lighting it up in practice and was even close to Kyle Orton, I think he would be the starter hands down. But he hasn't. So, though I want Tebow as the starter, he didn't perform. So we need to have Kyle Orton start and succeed or fail as the starter. Heck, right now Tim's having a hard time beating out Brady Quinn.

                        Now you have to look at why Tim Tebow isn't close to Kyle Orton. Accuracy. Mechanics. Reads. The ability to take snaps. There's a definite list there that Tim needs to work on.

                        To you, he's being cheated. To me, he couldn't come close to beating out Kyle Orton, he's struggling against Quinn, and there are reasons for that. He needs to work on those reasons.

                        Like I said. Once Tebow's lighting it up in practice and in preseason games (making all of the right reads), and he's not starting, then I'll be right there with you saying he's being cheated. And so will the rest of Denver. But he's not there yet.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
                          No. No. No.

                          I've been making your "one single stat scoring more points" argument all offseason. The Broncos as a team scored 25 points per game with Tebow under center last year. They scored 20.7 points per game with Orton under center. Keep in mind that the year before with Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler, Orton-led offenses scored 20.3 points per game.

                          Here's the problem. When in practice, where everyone else earns their spot, Kyle Orton is head and shoulders above Tebow. How can you claim to have an open competition and start a guy who is worse in the QB competition? You can't. You have to start the better player. Otherwise, you don't earn your spot on the team, spots are given. That's when a football team becomes political and not survival of the fittest. You lose the team that way. You have to be fair and you have to give what's earned. If Tebow had been lighting it up in practice and was even close to Kyle Orton, I think he would be the starter hands down. But he hasn't. So, though I want Tebow as the starter, he didn't perform. So we need to have Kyle Orton start and succeed or fail as the starter. Heck, right now Tim's having a hard time beating out Brady Quinn.

                          Now you have to look at why Tim Tebow isn't close to Kyle Orton. Accuracy. Mechanics. Reads. The ability to take snaps. There's a definite list there that Tim needs to work on.

                          To you, he's being cheated. To me, he couldn't come close to beating out Kyle Orton, he's struggling against Quinn, and there are reasons for that. He needs to work on those reasons.

                          Like I said. Once Tebow's lighting it up in practice and in preseason games (making all of the right reads), and he's not starting, then I'll be right there with you saying he's being cheated. And so will the rest of Denver. But he's not there yet.
                          Completely agree. Though i want Tebow to start, I understand why Fox and Elway cant do that after claiming QB competition. If Orton outperforms him in practice, how can you start Tebow. It would just appear that the competition thing was always a joke and they would start Tebow no matter what. Instead we will wait to see what Orton does in games, and if he continues to struggle early on with his redzone and late game performance and we are 2 and 6, I think Tebow comes in and Orton is done (in more ways than one). But If Orton performs in games and Denver is winning, wand we are more like 3 and 3 or 4 and 2 (unlikely) then you have to keep letting Orton go and Tebow will most likely get his shot next year.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by fightinglee View Post
                            But If Orton performs in games and Denver is winning, wand we are more like 3 and 3 or 4 and 2 (unlikely) then you have to keep letting Orton go and Tebow will most likely get his shot next year.
                            This is, I think, the cause of much Tebow anxiety. The sense that it's slipping away and the new regime will draft a quarterback.

                            It went from circumstances where he'd get thrown out there to learn on the job, to the possibility that he'll be a journeyman for years.

                            It has happened a lot, and it has happened to good quarterbacks like Rich Gannon.

                            It's not unusual for any team or fanbase to want to find out how the backup quarterbacks will play. It happens every time there is an early round pick or interesting player.

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                            • I want Tebow oVER oRTON. Hand Down!

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                              • Originally posted by Crazy8
                                Yes, Brett Favre had an elongated motion. He also has the most INTs of any QB in history. Is that what you want for Tebow? Jay Cutler also has/had a bad release. He threw 26 INTs 2 years ago. Is that what you want for Tebow?

                                And why are you talking to me about other QBs elongated motions? I'm not the guy that told Tebow to change anything. Tebow did that himself. I'm just pointing out that he reverts back to the old way. I showed evidence of that to back up my point. Honestly, I think that's wasted motion, and any athlete, including Brett Favre and Jay Cutler, need to get rid of wasted motion to be more efficient.
                                Brett Favre and Jay Cutler also threw a lot more INT's in college than Tebow did. Go look at a bunch of the successful QB's in the NFL today and you'll be surprised at how similar their college career INT % compares to their NFL career INT %. Tim Tebow throwing a bunch of INT's in the NFL is the last thing I'm worried about.

                                Favre and Cutler both have thrown a lot of INT's in the NFL because they take a lot of chances with their throws that are frequently not smart or advisable. Tebow hasn't done that to date and I don't think he'll start, it's just not in his nature as a QB. He is very careful. Favre was just a gambler and a gunslinger, Cutler plays behind a terrible O-line and just throws it up sometimes when he should have thrown it away or taken a sack.

                                I think what a lot of people see as Tebow not going through reads and running when he "should be staying in the pocket", is actually his reluctance to just force it into tight coverage and possibly throw an INT, which I think is great. I think he believes that it's better for him to get 3-5 yards on the ground than to be sacked or make a questionable throw. I think any reasonable person would have a hard time disagreeing with that line of thinking.

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