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Scouts Inc.: "Is Knowshon a No. 1?"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by marcus_miller View Post
    So many times on these boards, it seems the total picture is over looked for a pin on a table in the picture.

    Example: LT has had a bit of a resurgence. He changed teams and actually preformed better. How? Why?. Well to start with he is running behind Tony Richardson, the FB from KC when all those RBs had 1500 to 2000 yards year in and year out. Then the Jets had the great OL and willingness to commit to the run. Who would of thought LT's numbers would actually get better? If you looked at the whole picture, it was spelled out in all caps.

    Lets look at the teams that have sucked, the teams are improving, the great teams, and the teams on the decline. Inject any player at any position and tell me what that player is worth, kinda hard to do. He is good in space but not so much between the tackles.

    Lets look at Dumm. I think it's fair to say, pre Nolan, Dumm was just another average player. Under Nolan he became a superstar, best in the league, Player of the Year etc etc etc. There is a very real possibility in the new system he could become just marginally average again.......What will the experts and most of the posters on here say....?.... Well I guess he never made it back 100% form that injury...... There will be the pin on the table in the picture.

    One of my favorite examples was LG Hutchinson from Seattle who went to the Vikes. Some on here wanted to sign Alexander, It was never really Alexander IMO it was Hutchinson that produced Alexanders yards. Hutchinson leaves and Alexanders numbers go in the toilet right after signing a big contract that lead to Hutchinson not able to be signed. He goes to the Vikes and Peterson is drafted and a star is born.

    Now we look at Moreno, actually lets look at the Pats, Moreno had played in the same system. When is the last time a Pats RB lived up to their expectations? Why? People had the wrong expectations. Single back spread O, just is not going to produce great numbers from the RB position.

    Now lets look at the line Moreno has run behind. His rookie year the line was by far and away better then the line he had his sophomore year. Lets look at the style of O over the last two years and what do we find. 2 years of near record breaking numbers in the passing game. What does that do to the running game?

    I polled the question of player vs. scheme, a few times, and it's always the player that comes out on top, not even close. I think it's the other way around scheme makes the player. The player's abilities do come into play to be great but, with out the proper scheming mediocre is the best you can hope for, even out of a great player.

    One thing is for certain, it takes two for a thing to go right, it takes two to make it out of sight, in the case of football, it takes everybody and everything to make it out of sight.

    With the commitment to the run game back under Fox, (supposedly) I expect Moreno to do much better. Also Zone Blocking seems to be making his way back and should help increase rushing production.

    Still though, we have two line men that are 2nd year players and probably a RT that is a rookie. We have NO useful FB on this team. I don't expect much of a running game from a single back formation.

    Moreno has the skill set, thats for sure. The question is not of Moreno's worth as applied to where he was drafted, it's more of can he be used in a way that will maximize his potential for an accurate reading on his worth. I for one don't see a Super Duper Dramatic improvement but, I do see an improvement in Moreno's production. It all depends on how well things come together.

    Lets not forget that Moreno has incredible character and as long as he fits in well at the country club it doesn't matter if he DOESN'T grind his cleats into a defenders hand for an extra inch, as long as he knows which fork to use at the table.
    Before I address anything... Did you just turn a Rob Base lyric into a football analogy? thats impressive in of itself! lol

    On to the argument at hand. I agree with you for the most part. The scheme is very important to the running game. Look at Shanny's running game success with the plug in any back ZBS. None of those backs went on and did anything anywhere else. But look for a second what TD did compared to the other backs. That in essence is the difference between a great back in a great system and mediocre backs in a great system. No question we had a horrible system in the last few years but bottom line is there would be better production from a better back. Knowshon is incapable of moving a pile and tries to juke way to much. There are times when there was nothing there he needed to put his head down and drive those legs for any positive yardage, instead he hesitates and tries to juke 4 defense men simultasneously netting a loss. I have confidence Fox is gonna get us a every down pounding back and relegate Knowshon to 3rd down. I don't think Knowshon is a bum but its obvious he can't take the every down punishment.
    Last edited by biglig; 05-06-2011, 03:46 PM.
    "I've gone great lengths to expand my threshold of pain" - HR

    Comment


    • #17
      I just don't see him as a #1 back, and I really think that if not this season next he will be moved down the depth chart. While he doesn't do anything terrible (cept for his speed), he also doesn't do anything good.....He is just an av back. I think as a 32 back getting 25% of the carries in a run dominated scheme he could be solid. as a feature back he is what we have seen
      Thanx Blondie79 for the sweet Sig....Love it and I will rock it with pridesigpic

      Comment


      • #18
        It is the weirdest thing when I see people say that buck was a better back last year or that knowshon has no elusiveness or half of the crap that they say.


        To me that is like saying peyton hillis runs with the power of a 3 legged chihuahua.


        For anyone who physically has their eyes open when the player is running can see that it is not even close. at all. not even a tiny bit. It is so weird to me.
        So far:
        FA- Melvin Gordon. Brandon Scherff
        1. Kenneth Murray LB; 2. Shenault WR; 2B. Biadazz Center, 3. OT

        Comment


        • #19
          if moreno is used enough and stays healthy then he can be #1. If he cant then he needs a great backup or to be replaced.
          sigpic
          "I'm scared if I stop all at once, the cumulative hangover will literally kill me."

          Comment


          • #20
            marcus_miller...I said it in the CP and I'll say it again, best post I've seen on here in a while! From the picture metaphor to the Rob Base lyrics to just the overall message, I enjoyed it.

            -------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Call me crazy, but I'd like to see Ricky Williams in Denver. No toker jokes please

            I've always liked the way he ran, tough and a good finisher. Don't think he's got the legs to be the feature back but I would like him in the mix.
            My other love...
            sigpic
            305 HP / 273 TQ / SH-AWD / 6MT

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by marcus_miller View Post
              So many times on these boards, it seems the total picture is over looked for a pin on a table in the picture.

              Example: LT has had a bit of a resurgence. He changed teams and actually preformed better. How? Why?. Well to start with he is running behind Tony Richardson, the FB from KC when all those RBs had 1500 to 2000 yards year in and year out. Then the Jets had the great OL and willingness to commit to the run. Who would of thought LT's numbers would actually get better? If you looked at the whole picture, it was spelled out in all caps.

              Lets look at the teams that have sucked, the teams are improving, the great teams, and the teams on the decline. Inject any player at any position and tell me what that player is worth, kinda hard to do.

              Lets look at Dumm. I think it's fair to say, pre Nolan, Dumm was just another average player. Under Nolan he became a superstar, best in the league, Player of the Year etc etc etc. There is a very real possibility in the new system he could become just marginally average again.......What will the experts and most of the posters on here say....?.... Well I guess he never made it back 100% form that injury...... There will be the pin on the table in the picture.

              One of my favorite examples was LG Hutchinson from Seattle who went to the Vikes. Some on here wanted to sign Alexander, It was never really Alexander IMO it was Hutchinson that produced Alexanders yards. Hutchinson leaves and Alexanders numbers go in the toilet right after signing a big contract that lead to Hutchinson not able to be signed. He goes to the Vikes and Peterson is drafted and a star is born.

              Now we look at Moreno, actually lets look at the Pats, Moreno had played in the same system. When is the last time a Pats RB lived up to their expectations? Why? People had the wrong expectations. Single back spread O, just is not going to produce great numbers from the RB position.

              Now lets look at the line Moreno has run behind. His rookie year the line was by far and away better then the line he had his sophomore year. Lets look at the style of O over the last two years and what do we find. 2 years of near record breaking numbers in the passing game. What does that do to the running game?

              I polled the question of player vs. scheme, a few times, and it's always the player that comes out on top, not even close. I think it's the other way around scheme makes the player. The player's abilities do come into play to be great but, with out the proper scheming mediocre is the best you can hope for, even out of a great player.

              One thing is for certain, it takes two for a thing to go right, it takes two to make it out of sight, in the case of football, it takes everybody and everything to make it out of sight.

              With the commitment to the run game back under Fox, (supposedly) I expect Moreno to do much better. Also Zone Blocking seems to be making his way back and should help increase rushing production.

              Still though, we have two line men that are 2nd year players and probably a RT that is a rookie. We have NO useful FB on this team. I don't expect much of a running game from a single back formation.

              Moreno has the skill set, thats for sure. The question is not of Moreno's worth as applied to where he was drafted, it's more of can he be used in a way that will maximize his potential for an accurate reading on his worth. I for one don't see a Super Duper Dramatic improvement but, I do see an improvement in Moreno's production. It all depends on how well things come together.

              Lets not forget that Moreno has incredible character and as long as he fits in well at the country club it doesn't matter if he DOESN'T grind his cleats into a defenders hand for an extra inch, as long as he knows which fork to use at the table.

              This is a well thought out and very well said response. It definitely takes more than two, that's why it is a team sport.

              By the way, i believe that MM was quoting the group SEDUCTION "IT TAKES TWO"
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfdI9wV0waI

              Aloha
              HE>i

              Comment


              • #22
                When CBA gets figured out, sign Noel Devine. Hopefully White comes back healthy and let White, Buck and Ball fight it out for last 4 spots, unless Green makes roster and we use him as a H-back behind Larsen at FB.
                New England Patriots GM

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Broncoboy6 View Post
                  This is a well thought out and very well said response. It definitely takes more than two, that's why it is a team sport.

                  By the way, i believe that MM was quoting the group SEDUCTION "IT TAKES TWO"
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfdI9wV0waI

                  Aloha
                  Mos def referring to Rob Base, he may not have been as internationally known as Seduction but, he definitely rocked the microphone more.

                  That Seduction Video was uhm uhm ah interesting though.

                  Either way, it takes two to make a thing go right and with football it takes everybody and everything, for a thing to be out of sight.
                  I hate the Defenseless Receiver rule and the fines. Posted since '07. 2011 rule addition :nono: backhand a fool!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by marcus_miller View Post
                    Mos def referring to Rob Base, he may not have been as internationally known as Seduction but, he definitely rocked the microphone more.

                    That Seduction Video was uhm uhm ah interesting though.

                    Either way, it takes two to make a thing go right and with football it takes everybody and everything, for a thing to be out of sight.
                    Ooops, my bad. Sometimes my mind plays tricks on me. Also love Joy & Pain and Crush. I'm a sucker for the 80's & 90's music.

                    Can't forget Turn it out......
                    Last edited by Broncoboy6; 05-06-2011, 06:13 PM.
                    HE>i

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Gbt31 View Post
                      When CBA gets figured out, sign Noel Devine. Hopefully White comes back healthy and let White, Buck and Ball fight it out for last 4 spots, unless Green makes roster and we use him as a H-back behind Larsen at FB.


                      Me peronally, id rather sign derick loche. Just about as fast, runs harder and is not a freaking head case.

                      IIRC- Noel could have been 1st/2nd if he was not a POS...is that allowed here? pos? Sorry if not. I think its fine though.
                      So far:
                      FA- Melvin Gordon. Brandon Scherff
                      1. Kenneth Murray LB; 2. Shenault WR; 2B. Biadazz Center, 3. OT

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        For a 5 game stretch he was elite with an output of close to 135 yards per game (Foster led the league with around 138 per game). That would be almost 2200 yards of total offense.

                        For those who only want rushing yards, he will never be what you want. He is more a Roger Craig type back...who had 3 rings, so not too shabby.

                        With Moreno, it will always be health.
                        Ravens GM 2016 - Ravens are looking to trade down 4-8 spots

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by underrated29 View Post
                          Me peronally, id rather sign derick loche. Just about as fast, runs harder and is not a freaking head case.

                          IIRC- Noel could have been 1st/2nd if he was not a POS...is that allowed here? pos? Sorry if not. I think its fine though.
                          Is noel a POS?, i have'nt heard anything about that, but i do know that he was battling a toe injury last year, and that's why i thought he had fallen so much.
                          HE>i

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Broncoboy6 View Post
                            Is noel a POS?, i have'nt heard anything about that, but i do know that he was battling a toe injury last year, and that's why i thought he had fallen so much.

                            I am pretty sure. I honestly do not remember anymore. He was someone I was looking at and when I read whatever it was I stopped.


                            IIRC- I think he has or had numerous off field incidents, was a punk in the LR.....I could have him mixed up with someone, but I think that is the case. I dunno, turf toe seems pretty light to drop a guy with his skills out of the draft altogether.



                            Anyone confirm or deny this?
                            So far:
                            FA- Melvin Gordon. Brandon Scherff
                            1. Kenneth Murray LB; 2. Shenault WR; 2B. Biadazz Center, 3. OT

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MileHighInNY View Post
                              Posting this even though it's not great insight and doesn't really tell us anything new, but because I've been asking myself the same questions since we didn't get any RB help in the draft:



                              http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6486034

                              I think that Knowshon is a solid but unspectacular NFL running back. He's not the type of workhorse that a team can grind away at defenses with, and I haven't seen real flashes of greatness from him since he entered the league. Even if we get some FA help in the backfield (and DeAngelo would be a good fit, IMO), it's not clear that Moreno is anything close to "the answer" for us right now. And it's not like we have any promising young dark horses on the team either. Our RB position needs a total rebuild, IMO.
                              While he certainly hasn't lived to his billing, I don't think we can honestly truly make a fair evaluation. He hasn't had been able to stay healthy an entire season yet, true. That means two things though...that he *may* lack durability, and that he hasn't had a full season to show us all what he can for an entire year.

                              This is his year to either step up and show he can be a legit #1, or to show he is just a rotational guy that gets injured.

                              It is up to him which it will be. This year, is his make or break year.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I am willing to give just about any of the Broncos a second chance now that McD is gone. Moreno was a beast in college. I noticed more than once that he looked really good when he had a FB leading the way. I agree we should get more RBs, but I am not ready to give up on him yet. (Same with Ayers)
                                Kyle: Dude! I almost thought those Afghani kids talked you into not liking America.
                                Stan: No, dude. America may have some problems, but it's our home. Our team. And if you don't wanna root for your team, then you should get the hell out of the stadium.
                                Kyle: Yeah.
                                Stan:<salutes the American flag> Go America.
                                Kyle:<salutes> Go America...

                                Kyle: Go Broncos.
                                Stan: Yeah, go Broncos.
                                Cartman: Yeah.

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