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A Quarterback Discussion

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  • A Quarterback Discussion

    This isn't meant to be a thread about starting Tebow, or start Orton, or trade Orton, or let's just wait and get Luck.
    It's meant to be a serious discussion about the Broncos best choice as an organization in terms of
    1. Winning now versus in a year or two
    1. The development of versus the virtually wasted pick on Tebow
    1. The benefits of trading Orton versus the possible detrimental implications of trading Orton
    1. A general comparison of our QB situation to recent QB situations with other teams.

    As for my opinion:
    1. We are in a multi-year rebuilding mode on our path to being Superbowl contenders. Whether we head out with Orton, Quinn, or Tebow it doesn't matter because they could all fail or all succeed. The only variable that matters is where we'll pick at next year. If our QB play is dismal I have no doubt we'll have a top 5 pick and select Luck. If our QB play is subpar to average we'll select a DT. If our QB play is above average we'll still go DL. In that aspect, there is no QB debate because either or all QB's could play poorly or well and all that would change is where we pick at next year.
    1. If we don't start Tebow from Week 1 or if he doesn't start at least half the season I doubt Tebow will get the adequate amount of experience he needs to develop as a QB. Elway has stated numerous times that Tebow is raw and needs development, what other way can a QB get that besides gametime experience? If Tebow doesn't get that experience, the pick on him will have been wasted. Of course the pick will have been wasted if Tebow doesn't pan out, although I think Elway will keep Tebow around because he's a great locker room guy and does have the potential to start if we end up going DL in the first round next year instead of QB.
    1. Many of us, including I, have discussed trading Orton. If we trade Orton we not only pave the way for Tebow to start but we acquire a mid round draft pick or two. The latter, being guaranteed, is more important. Because our plan is to build our team through the draft, we can acquire a good piece or pieces for the team with that pick. However, a question a lot of us may have not thought about is what's the negative implications of trading Orton. The only one I can think about is Orton may have the ability to win more games than Tebow at this point. If that's the case we would have another high 1st next year, and that's not necessarily a negative for a team that's rebuilding.
    1. When I think of our team this year I think of the Buccaneers last year. A new head coach, questionable RB corps, questionable QB, good receiving threats, and a 4-3 defense that should be serviceable at the least. The success of that team all hinged on the development of Josh Freeman, and as most of you know, Freeman played outstanding. Freeman headed into the season with the same things to work on as Tebow, mainly his accuracy, and he showed drastic improvement (54.5% to 61.4%) and his team went 10-6 after a 3-13 season. Hopefully our team and QB will show that same improvement in the upcoming season.

    With all that said, my answers lead me to believe that as an organization, the Broncos would be best served to start Tebow, essentially because we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

  • #2
    My opinion:

    Maybe if Orton had a stud RB behind him he could lead an offense to a high scoring average...but he doesn't...and we can't get him one right now, so I don't see much point in keeping him.

    Tebow may not work out for us either, but I think it's time to move on.
    Last edited by MileHighMagic1; 05-12-2011, 03:25 AM.


    • #3
      I think if we were a 10-6 team heading into this season I think Orton would be the guy. But a championship isn't in front of us right now. We are a bottom feeder. We have a young 1st Round QB who has a lot of potential. We know what we have in Orton. We don't know what we have in Tebow and why waste another year being average or worst when we can get answers on Tebow and see what he can do. We lose and Tebow plays awful then we can look to some how get a guy like Luck. If he doesn't we build around him.


      • #4
        Tebow is the future. He showed enough last year to suggest that with more development and starting experience he will grow into a good, possibly great NFL QB.

        There is no point delaying the inevitable. Orton needs to be traded for whatever we can get and hopefully go somewhere to start like Arizona or Minnesota.

        This is Tebow's team and we must give him the reigns


        • #5
          I say that they handle the QB situation exactly as Elway and Fox have stated. Having a real open QB competition; with no specific playbook to suit any players style. That will make it fair in the sense that everyone has to perform the same tasks an thus be graded on the same accord. A true QB comp. will let the best man win. Not the fan favorite, not who has more fire, not who is the first man at practice and the last one to leave, the best QB PERIOD!!!!! So nobody needs to get the reigns handed to them. JMCD is gone an Fox is here so lets jus sit back and let him do his job.


          • #6
            We all know what we have with Orton, he is a very effective passer and as long as the team plays at 100% and we don't fall behind, Orton can keep the lead. The problem is that nothing ever goes as planed and there will be teams that get a lead on us. That is when we need a QB that can pull a rabbit out of his helmet and get us a win.

            Orton may be able to get us to the play-offs, but can he put the team on his back when the chips are down and win a championship? Can he lead us on a drive with less than 2 minutes to go, down by 6 from our own 2 yard line? If you answered yes to both those questions, then by all means keep Tebow on the bench and go with Orton as the QB for the future.

            However, if You answered no to just one of those questions, then that means Orton is not the QB that we should build our hopes on and we need to move on and find one that is. Remember you build your team around the QB, you can't build a team and plug in a QB later and expect it to work.

            I know Tebow is raw and inexperienced, but in the 3 games he started, he showed he was willing to do anything it took to get us a win. In his second game he overcame a 17 point deficit in the 4th quarter to get us a win, granted it was against a poor defense but in his next game against the leagues top ranked defense he came within a "Hail Mary" from getting us a win.

            The fact is that Tebow gives us a chance in the final minutes to win the game. In reality that is all we can ask for out of any QB. Sense we are in a rebuilding phase, it would only make sense that we start Tebow so we can evaluate his skills and needs so we can properly fit the offense to his style of play.

            If we go with a win now attitude and start Orton, when we don't feel that he can overcome adversity and win that championship game that we are down by 6 in the final minutes. Then all we did was waist a rebuilding year and we are in the same boat next season. The goal of this and every other NFL team is to win a Superbowl, not to see how many games that they can win during the season. So the real question to ask yourself is; Which QB gives us the best chance to win a Superbowl in 3 years? Not which QB can win the most games this year!


            • #7
              Another thing I would like to add, is I think that the writing is on the wall. EFX knows that Orton probably will not be able to win us a championship. They seem to feel that they believe Tebow to be the right QB to move on with, or they would've tried getting a QB with the #2 pick.


              • #8
                A few thoughts:

                I know everyone thinks Luck will fall into our lap next year but we would have to be total garbage to get that pick. Not only that, but the team with that bad a record would most likely need a QB. The funny part is watching Belichik grab more picks for next year. He will have 2 first round picks and 2 second round picks for ammo and I can see him moving Mallett and making a big trade.

                On Tim...if you watched him in the Senior Bowl, it was easy to see that he would need alot of work to play in this league. Sure he was sick that week and thrown into a new offense but he was awful. I had a friend go to a few TCs and saw him improve but still needed alot of work. Then come preseason he looked much better than alot of us were expected. Final three games he showed us he belonged. His improvement was pretty solid if not suprisingly well.

                Here is the kicker of it all. How is it possible for a "spread QB, need to be moved to a HB, poor mechanics, won't make it in this league, Denver is the laughing stock for drafting this kid, won't have a chance, needs years to develop, etc" guy come in and be that productive? How is it possible to even think he can take the team back from a 17 point deficit and win even a game? *Sarcasm* He must be the best HB I ever seen then. */Sarcasm* He will improve and he will elevate the rest of the team to improve. That is what good to great players do best...they make everyone around them better.
                Last edited by Houdini; 05-12-2011, 04:42 AM.


                • #9
                  Originally posted by broncolassiter View Post
                  We all know what we have with Orton, he is a very effective passer and as long as the team plays at 100% and we don't fall behind, Orton can keep the lead. The problem is that nothing ever goes as planed and there will be teams that get a lead on us. That is when we need a QB that can pull a rabbit out of his helmet and get us a win.
                  Say what you want about out Defense the past two years and I'll be the first to admit they stunk. But look it up, how many times our Orton lead offense put up fewer than 24 points in a game. the answer is 21 times in our of 29 games with Orton as our starter (9 of those games we had fewer than 14 points). In the NFL, unless you have a top tier defense you lose if you offense can't score more than 24 points.

                  Yea we know what an Orton lead offense can do.


                  • #10
                    This is not meant to sound rude towards the OP, but in general I don't get the "Let's just get Luck" thing. First off, it's never a guarantee that you get the player you want. And if you aren't in say the top 3 in draft choices, then you'll have to give up picks to get him. THEN if you do get him, you are setting the team back a few more years because you are banking on a top 3 choice to come in and start right away and save a franchise which never really happens right away. And why is it ok for him to do it, but someone like Tebow who will have had 2 years experience and real NFL game speed experience not be a better option? So then say you ship out Tebow. Then you have to have a veteran on the team, who won't be Orton due to contract status and the fact that it would be Orton vs Luck at that point. I dunno, maybe I'm rambling but I just wanted to point out that it's not as easy as it sounds to "just get Luck".
                    Decimating the competition, leaving in the wake a blind ambition.

                    You will be for ever known as the truth see-er


                    • #11
                      I think in the real world, money makes a difference as well. Orton has a big paycheck coming this year. If it were your money, would you want to pay him just to keep around, when Tebow showed last year he's at least ready to take that next step?

                      It's not a free decision -- it's a $9 million decision. The Broncos can use that Orton money to get a good free agent or two.


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ZeusOnEarth View Post
                        This isn't meant to be a thread about starting Tebow, or start Orton, or trade Orton, or let's just wait and get Luck.

                        <lots of stuff>
                        If our QB play is dismal I have no doubt we'll have a top 5 pick and select Luck.
                        <more stuff>

                        With all that said, my answers lead me to believe that as an organization, the Broncos would be best served to start Tebow, essentially because we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

                        Seems like your thread is exactly what you said it wasnt supposed to be...

                        Oh and just a side note: if we get a top 5 pick we wont get Luck. If we get a top 4 pick we wont get Luck. We will need a top 1 pick to get Luck, and I really hope we are better than that
                        Kyle: Dude! I almost thought those Afghani kids talked you into not liking America.
                        Stan: No, dude. America may have some problems, but it's our home. Our team. And if you don't wanna root for your team, then you should get the hell out of the stadium.
                        Kyle: Yeah.
                        Stan:<salutes the American flag> Go America.
                        Kyle:<salutes> Go America...

                        Kyle: Go Broncos.
                        Stan: Yeah, go Broncos.
                        Cartman: Yeah.


                        • #13
                          The way I see it, there is one simple question whose answer provides the guidance. Regardless of the other QBs, the question is:

                          Is Orton the long-term solution?

                          1. If the answer is 'yes', then re-sign him to a longer deal and move on.

                          2. If the answer is 'no', then you HAVE to trade him or he walks at the end of the season and we get nothing.

                          I personally believe it's number two, but that's just my opinion and you all know what they are like...


                          • #14
                            How is this not a thread about starting Tebow/Orton?

                            All people are going to do is rehash for the millionth time why said QB should start.

                            Also, we found out this draft FEX picks by BPA, they will not reach for a need if there is a better player available. So trying to predict who they will pick based on position play is probably futile.


                            • #15
                              Find me a reason NOT to start Tebow

                              Just one. I'm having a hard time coming up with one. If you break it down:

                              1) Leadership - off the charts, buries Quinn and Orton

                              2) Response to Pressure - this guy played in all the big games in College, he thrives on this, go back and watch the final couple drives in the BCS championship game against Oklahoma, the guy was amazingly clutch.

                              3) Passing - okay, here's the big one. But I think it's unfounded at this point. Again, go back and watch the BCS championship and watch some of those throws. More to the point, go back and watch the Houston and San Diego games. He is doing everything the critics said he couldn't. He's getting the ball out in time. He's throwing with accuracy. He's throwing with zip. He's throwing with finesse. He's throwing with power. He throws the flat route. He throws the 10 yard curl. He throws the deep post. He throws the fade. He throws the streak. He throws rolling to his left. He throws rolling back to his right. He throws the deep out (the deep out for god's sake!!!!). You can argue (weakly) his consistency, but I could throw this back and argue this for everyone in their rookie year, Manning included (thought I would edit so no misunderstandings - no, I'm not saying he is Manning). So basically at this point you'd have to be arguing that he has the skills for all of this (since he's shown that he can do it), but needs practice. Welcome to being a rookie in the NFL. Again, as Houdini alludes to above, the impressive thing is that he got to this point, from being such a "project", after only starting 3 regular season games. Find me a pass he can't make. Go ahead, I dare ya.


                              4) Running - pretty much one of the best skill sets for running at QB that has come along in awhile. While he is not Vick-esque, I think you have to go back that far to find this good a runner.

                              5) Durability - the guy is tough, and he's like 240+, built like a tank. Plus, he started making smarter plays as the year went on running out of bounds etc. I think he'll be much more durable than the other QB's on this team.

                              6) Upside - well, he's entering his 2nd year, and I think given the improvement that Houdini points out in the above posts, we can expect big things from him. Really, the sky is the limit. Can you say that for any of the other QB's on this team?

                              The more time goes on, I'm a Tebow guy all the way. In fact, I think he should likely be given 2 or 3 more seasons at the helm before we decide away from him, which I don't think we will. I think he's that good. Find me a reason he's not.
                              Last edited by Humberg; 05-12-2011, 07:24 AM.
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