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  • BroncoFanNC
    replied
    Originally posted by ZeusOnEarth View Post
    I understand all that. As a matter of fact I'm really not even all that high on getting Luck. I simply pointed that out because as I read almost everything on these boards a lot of posters seem to feel or have felt that we should get Luck next year.



    Not necessarily. I don't mind when posters state who they feel should be the starter because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and frankly some posters opinions are interesting. What I didn't want it to turn into was a simplistic debate on Tebow or Orton, that was the essence of my original statement.



    It's not a thread about starting Tebow or Orton because that thread would be superficial. This thread is about how to move forward as an organization in rebuilding mode. The central topic however does involve our QB play however because no team wins a Super Bowl with poor QB play.

    Well depending on where we're at the BPA may also be the one to fill a need. People seem to forget we had a lot of holes to fill last year and we'll have a lot less holes to fill this year.



    We are in a multi-year rebuilding mode if it's going to take more than one year. I also wasn't talking about being a playoff contender because I don't think it's reasonable to take 3-4 years making us a playoff contender. We are rebuilding towards being a Super Bowl contender.
    And this thread hasn't already deterorated to the same people having debates over qualitys of each QB on the roster?

    You also are assuming every one of our draft picks works out perfectly this year when you say we filled many holes. Lots of promising players yes, but nothing is guaranteed. Even if every one of those players becomes a starter, we still have depth issues at many positions, which are just as key as having quality starters.

    Our offense needs work. Even with Tebow as QB our first half scoring was DISMAL.

    Just like the KC game where our defense was doing everything it could, the offense just wouldn't put points on the board.

    Both SD games, Orton or Tebow, 1st half scoring was abysmal.

    Yet we are supposedly keeping a similar, if not the same, offense in place. Is our 2 late round TE's and a rookie tackle going to make an impact enough to get into the endzone in the first half? Or does oust scheme need adjusting?

    Leave a comment:


  • BlueOrange7
    replied
    Originally posted by gobroncos313 View Post
    Say what you want about out Defense the past two years and I'll be the first to admit they stunk. But look it up, how many times our Orton lead offense put up fewer than 24 points in a game. the answer is 21 times in our of 29 games with Orton as our starter (9 of those games we had fewer than 14 points). In the NFL, unless you have a top tier defense you lose if you offense can't score more than 24 points.

    Yea we know what an Orton lead offense can do.
    It’s hard to produce an effective offense that scores when you’re always coming from behind by play action passes, screens, ditch the running game or just run out of shotgun. Sorry but I agree with you that he hasn't produced huge numbers that have equated to wins, but he has been the one of the most effective QBs Denver has seen this decade. BTW, how many teams have consistently put up 24 or more pts per game in that same time span (not too many I would guess). I think Orton is our best shot to win now, if we choose to build for the future then trade him once the CBA gets gone for a 3rd round pick; start Tebow. If Tebow wins games, great (I’ll be the first to admit I was wrong about him). If not, draft a QB 1st round (Luck, Barkley, L. Jones, Foles, Davis, Cousins) and let those two compete for the top spot.

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  • Apoc13
    replied
    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
    In his first year at Carolina, John Fox took a 1-15 Panthers team and turned them around to 7-9. In his 2nd year he took them to Super Bowl XXXVIII.

    I would expect Elway hired Fox because he desires a similar quick turnaround. Given how weak the AFC West is, not only is a winning season reasonable to expect, but also a playoff appearance this year...
    puhleeze.....to assume, because a coach has a season where he turns around a team in epic fashion, that will be the norm is setting up mr fox for certain failure...he was hired because he's a good coach not because anybody feels or expects the broncos to be in the superbowl next season

    Leave a comment:


  • Houdini
    replied
    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
    It didn't take the Cardinals nearly that much time to realize that their own Heisman-winning, NCAA National-Championship-winning QB wasn't an NFL starting QB. Or for Cleveland to discover that Brady Quinn wasn't the answer. Why should the Broncos waste 3 more seasons before deciding?

    Leave a comment:


  • neckbeard
    replied
    Originally posted by Humberg View Post
    Debatable leadership? Wow, I guess taking his college team to be the national champions, I guess consistently being that go to guy, I guess the Houston comeback, all that is irrelevant to you? On this one you are in the VERY VERY, almost RIDICULOUS minority (since nobody agrees with you, even most of his harshest critics). But go ahead, if you want to argue Tebow shouldn't start because he lacks leadership skills, good luck with that.
    Rah-rah cheerleading works with a team of college kids. Professional veteran players could tend to find it insultingly condescending. That's the type of "leadership" Tebow brings.
    The Chargers game came to within 1 play and Tebow was the guy who made it that close. Even if you say he made some rookie mistakes that contributed to them being in that position, which he did, it was a heck of an effort to even keep it this close. I can't really argue with you on that game. However, his clutch abilities in college are not irrelevant. You learn to compete on a big stage, then you will be able to compete on a big stage, no matter the audience. Again, you are in the miniscule minority on this one.
    Orton mounted a 20 point scoring frenzy in the 4th Qtr of the Rams game. Yet he's scorned by Tebow fans as a "choker" for failing to score a FOURTH TOUCHDOWN after the first three he threw in the last 15 minutes of the game.

    You have to apply the same standard to Tebow or else it doesn't apply to Orton.
    In fact, I do want to talk about clutch at the pro level. What has Orton ever done that would be considered clutch? Perhaps you are going to argue the Bengals game where he missed on a throw to Brandon Marshall, had an act of God happen and had the ball deflected to Stokes for the TD? I still remember Orton running down the field with his arms up, as if he had actually done anything...
    OK, how about the comebacks against the Patriots and Cowboys in '09? Or the Titans last season? He also led the Bears in game-winning comeback drives against the Packers and Saints in 2008. And another game-winning drive against the Saints as a rookie in 2005.

    Just how many game-winning comeback drives can you expect from a QB on crappy Offenses?

    Did you even view the videos? Either you have to argue that he was that good to begin with (possibility), or that he improved.
    Yes, I've watched the videos.

    Tebow had a bad throwing motion in college. After an atrocious showing in the Senior Bowl, Tebow worked out with a private coach and "fixed" his throws. Before the draft, in shorts and a t-shirt, Timmy showed a textbook throwing motion. But when he got into real games he went right back to his old style from college. He didn't improve at all.

    ...tell that to Michael Vick, or Steve Young, or John Elway, or.......you get the point. He's NOT ONLY a great runner, but can pass too. That makes him a running QB.
    Those are QBs who could run. They're passers first and foremost. Tebow is a runner who can KIND OF (49.4% completion rate as a starter) throw. He's not a good QB by any stretch.
    Yeah, and players suffer injuries all the time in non contact drills, in preseason games, etc. You do understand it's all physics don't you? My point here was that he got smarter as the year went on. And I'll take his durability any day over Orton's (who, by the way, also got injured in the preseason, against scrubs, when he hurt his wittle finger - boo hoo, and also missed playing time). You have no point here.
    So Tebow's allowed injuries because he's "tough?" But Orton is "injury-prone" and hurts the team by being a gutsy enough competitor to play thru his injuries?
    So where are you even going to begin here? I suppose you could focus on Orton's 6-0 start in 2009 before he dropped 8 of the next 10 games to finish 8-8, or perhaps the 4-12 season in 2010 (actually Orton only had a 3 win season since Tebow was responsible for one of those 4 wins). And if you don't think Tebow improved throughout the year, or even from game to game, go back and watch the tape. You know, I don't doubt that Orton has, in some small ways, improved every year as a player, perhaps in a couple of years he'll be as good as Tebow (said in jest, but I couldn't resist, mostly because Orton is so dismal as a starting QB)
    .
    2010 was the ONLY season that Orton failed to post a winning record. And that took the total collapse of the entire team under an inexperienced, overtasked, egotistical, arrogant and inflexible head coach.

    As for his "improvement," in his last season with the Bears (2008) and last season, Orton was consistently posting passer ratings in the 90s until he was injured. On both teams he was virtually the only good thing on the Offense. It's been KO's bad luck to wind up starting on 2 different teams that had absolutely horrible pass protection. This year with John Fox running things, Orton will have respectable protection and get thru the year healthy and posting passer ratings in the high 90s, maybe even over 100. Denver will be hard-put to screw things up badly enough to lose a lot of games with their starting QB performing at that level...
    I never said that we should give Matt Leinert or Brady Quinn three seasons, I said we should give Tim Tebow 2 or 3 seasons. They are completely different players, in completely different circumstances. I suppose I would counter your argument here with the fact that it didn't take long for them to realize that Orton is not the long-term answer, in Chicago or Denver.
    So Tebow gets special treatment just because he's Tebow?

    In Chicago, HC Lovie Smith intended to move forward with Orton as his unchallenged starting QB. It was a turf war with Bears' GM Jerry Angelo (Lovie benched Jerry's choice of QB - Rex Grossman - in favor of KO) that caused Orton being traded out of Chicago. And in Denver, the TEAM certainly hasn't made any determination that Orton "isn't the answer." They do seem to be awfully vague and noncommittal about Tebow though...

    Your move bearded, one....
    Back to you, Hummy...

    Leave a comment:


  • Jay3
    replied
    I say playoff contender this year. We could have been last year with better coaching.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeusOnEarth
    replied
    Originally posted by jetdrumz View Post
    This is not meant to sound rude towards the OP, but in general I don't get the "Let's just get Luck" thing. First off, it's never a guarantee that you get the player you want. And if you aren't in say the top 3 in draft choices, then you'll have to give up picks to get him. THEN if you do get him, you are setting the team back a few more years because you are banking on a top 3 choice to come in and start right away and save a franchise which never really happens right away. And why is it ok for him to do it, but someone like Tebow who will have had 2 years experience and real NFL game speed experience not be a better option? So then say you ship out Tebow. Then you have to have a veteran on the team, who won't be Orton due to contract status and the fact that it would be Orton vs Luck at that point. I dunno, maybe I'm rambling but I just wanted to point out that it's not as easy as it sounds to "just get Luck".
    I understand all that. As a matter of fact I'm really not even all that high on getting Luck. I simply pointed that out because as I read almost everything on these boards a lot of posters seem to feel or have felt that we should get Luck next year.

    Originally posted by LordOfChaos View Post
    :paper:

    Seems like your thread is exactly what you said it wasnt supposed to be...

    Oh and just a side note: if we get a top 5 pick we wont get Luck. If we get a top 4 pick we wont get Luck. We will need a top 1 pick to get Luck, and I really hope we are better than that
    Not necessarily. I don't mind when posters state who they feel should be the starter because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and frankly some posters opinions are interesting. What I didn't want it to turn into was a simplistic debate on Tebow or Orton, that was the essence of my original statement.

    Originally posted by BroncoFanNC View Post
    How is this not a thread about starting Tebow/Orton?

    All people are going to do is rehash for the millionth time why said QB should start.

    Also, we found out this draft FEX picks by BPA, they will not reach for a need if there is a better player available. So trying to predict who they will pick based on position play is probably futile.
    It's not a thread about starting Tebow or Orton because that thread would be superficial. This thread is about how to move forward as an organization in rebuilding mode. The central topic however does involve our QB play however because no team wins a Super Bowl with poor QB play.

    Well depending on where we're at the BPA may also be the one to fill a need. People seem to forget we had a lot of holes to fill last year and we'll have a lot less holes to fill this year.

    Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
    We are not in a multi year rebuilding mode . We are already 5-6 years into a playoff drought and Xanders and co wont be around if this thing makes it to 9-10 years you best believe that.
    We are in a multi-year rebuilding mode if it's going to take more than one year. I also wasn't talking about being a playoff contender because I don't think it's reasonable to take 3-4 years making us a playoff contender. We are rebuilding towards being a Super Bowl contender.

    Leave a comment:


  • samparnell
    replied
    Quarterbacks

    Spread formations are in the Denver Bronco offensive PB. Some have two WRs wide on one side (one on, one off) on or near the numbers and two on the other side in the same spot. No TE, one RB, QB in gun (i.e., direct snap).

    D must line up on O. Four defenders are on those WRs and are out of the box. If the QB looks at the D and sees a S 10+ yards deep, that means only six are in the box. If two Safeties are deep, that's only five in the box.

    This is where Tebow could do some damage. If you're already in spread/gun, have the Spread Option Package ready via audible. Double option is available just with the formation. Put a guy in motion (e.g., Quad to Bunch) to either be give (via shovel pass) or pitch in triple option.

    Six in the box: block five, read one and run option. Five in the box: block five and run option into the secondary. Seven in the box: throw it. It's an easy read.

    Tebow is a running QB. This is what can be done from spread if you have a running QB.

    Leave a comment:


  • Humberg
    replied
    Neckbeard, thanks for coming to play...

    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
    That's your subjective opinion. Showy rah-rah displays? Yeah Tebow's off the charts. But REAL leadership? That's VERY debatable...
    Debatable leadership? Wow, I guess taking his college team to be the national champions, I guess consistently being that go to guy, I guess the Houston comeback, all that is irrelevant to you? On this one you are in the VERY VERY, almost RIDICULOUS minority (since nobody agrees with you, even most of his harshest critics). But go ahead, if you want to argue Tebow shouldn't start because he lacks leadership skills, good luck with that.

    What Tebow did in college is now completely irrelevant. NFL is a whole different game. If you want to talk about "clutch" at the pro level, the Chargers game was within reach and he did nothing at the end.
    The Chargers game came to within 1 play and Tebow was the guy who made it that close. Even if you say he made some rookie mistakes that contributed to them being in that position, which he did, it was a heck of an effort to even keep it this close. I can't really argue with you on that game. However, his clutch abilities in college are not irrelevant. You learn to compete on a big stage, then you will be able to compete on a big stage, no matter the audience. Again, you are in the miniscule minority on this one.

    In fact, I do want to talk about clutch at the pro level. What has Orton ever done that would be considered clutch? Perhaps you are going to argue the Bengals game where he missed on a throw to Brandon Marshall, had an act of God happen and had the ball deflected to Stokes for the TD? I still remember Orton running down the field with his arms up, as if he had actually done anything...

    Honestly, IMO (which I know is very much in the minority) I don't think he's shown a heck of a lot of improvement as a pocket passer. Which is what both Elway AND Fox both insist he must become proficient at to succeed.
    Did you even view the videos? Either you have to argue that he was that good to begin with (possibility), or that he improved.

    Yeah, he's a great runner. But that's why teams have running backs. He's supposed to be a QB...
    ...tell that to Michael Vick, or Steve Young, or John Elway, or.......you get the point. He's NOT ONLY a great runner, but can pass too. That makes him a running QB.

    And yet this "tough" and "durable" guy suffered rib injuries AGAINST SCRUB DEFENDERS IN A MEANINGLESS PRESEASON GAME. He missed playing time over that.
    Yeah, and players suffer injuries all the time in non contact drills, in preseason games, etc. You do understand it's all physics don't you? My point here was that he got smarter as the year went on. And I'll take his durability any day over Orton's (who, by the way, also got injured in the preseason, against scrubs, when he hurt his wittle finger - boo hoo, and also missed playing time). You have no point here.

    I don't think that Tebow has shown ANY tendency to improve yet. But Orton has consistently improved as a player each and every year in the NFL...
    So where are you even going to begin here? I suppose you could focus on Orton's 6-0 start in 2009 before he dropped 8 of the next 10 games to finish 8-8, or perhaps the 4-12 season in 2010 (actually Orton only had a 3 win season since Tebow was responsible for one of those 4 wins). And if you don't think Tebow improved throughout the year, or even from game to game, go back and watch the tape. You know, I don't doubt that Orton has, in some small ways, improved every year as a player, perhaps in a couple of years he'll be as good as Tebow (said in jest, but I couldn't resist, mostly because Orton is so dismal as a starting QB).

    It didn't take the Cardinals nearly that much time to realize that their own Heisman-winning, NCAA National-Championship-winning QB wasn't an NFL starting QB. Or for Cleveland to discover that Brady Quinn wasn't the answer. Why should the Broncos waste 3 more seasons before deciding?
    I never said that we should give Matt Leinert or Brady Quinn three seasons, I said we should give Tim Tebow 2 or 3 seasons. They are completely different players, in completely different circumstances. I suppose I would counter your argument here with the fact that it didn't take long for them to realize that Orton is not the long-term answer, in Chicago or Denver.

    Your move bearded, one....

    Leave a comment:


  • neckbeard
    replied
    Originally posted by Apoc13 View Post
    but they're not expected to win more than 8 games next year....8 or more would be a huge success...next year is improvement year...2012, if the world hasn't been destroyed, will be a year with some serious expectations (9+ wins)...at least imo anyway
    In his first year at Carolina, John Fox took a 1-15 Panthers team and turned them around to 7-9. In his 2nd year he took them to Super Bowl XXXVIII.

    I would expect Elway hired Fox because he desires a similar quick turnaround. Given how weak the AFC West is, not only is a winning season reasonable to expect, but also a playoff appearance this year...

    Leave a comment:


  • jetdrumz
    replied
    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
    That's your subjective opinion. Showy rah-rah displays? Yeah Tebow's off the charts. But REAL leadership? That's VERY debatable...

    What Tebow did in college is now completely irrelevant. NFL is a whole different game. If you want to talk about "clutch" at the pro level, the Chargers game was within reach and he did nothing at the end.


    Honestly, IMO (which I know is very much in the minority) I don't think he's shown a heck of a lot of improvement as a pocket passer. Which is what both Elway AND Fox both insist he must become proficient at to succeed.

    Yeah, he's a great runner. But that's why teams have running backs. He's supposed to be a QB...


    And yet this "tough" and "durable" guy suffered rib injuries AGAINST SCRUB DEFENDERS IN A MEANINGLESS PRESEASON GAME. He missed playing time over that.


    I don't think that Tebow has shown ANY tendency to improve yet. But Orton has consistently improved as a player each and every year in the NFL...


    It didn't take the Cardinals nearly that much time to realize that their own Heisman-winning, NCAA National-Championship-winning QB wasn't an NFL starting QB. Or for Cleveland to discover that Brady Quinn wasn't the answer. Why should the Broncos waste 3 more seasons before deciding?
    Your disdain for Tebow is palpable. How would you feel about Luck if Tebow was shipped and he was drafted?

    Leave a comment:


  • Apoc13
    replied
    Originally posted by KO8pectate View Post
    We are not in a multi year rebuilding mode . We are already 5-6 years into a playoff drought and Xanders and co wont be around if this thing makes it to 9-10 years you best believe that.
    but they're not expected to win more than 8 games next year....8 or more would be a huge success...next year is improvement year...2012, if the world hasn't been destroyed, will be a year with some serious expectations (9+ wins)...at least imo anyway

    Leave a comment:


  • KO8pectate
    replied
    We are not in a multi year rebuilding mode . We are already 5-6 years into a playoff drought and Xanders and co wont be around if this thing makes it to 9-10 years you best believe that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apoc13
    replied
    sure is a lot of luck talk here....last year this time teams were talking about locker and look how that turned out...he went from sure thing #1 overall to not even the 1st qb taken, though he did end up going higher than expected

    if luck has a bad year we might not have to finish with the worst record....but then again we might no longer want him either

    and to houdini, no way belichick takes luck...the only reason he took mallet was because he was still sitting there so late and the pats could use a solid backup...brady had one of the best, if not the best, seasons of his career last year...they're counting on him being around for a long while yet. i find it hard to believe the pats would sacrifice a bunch of picks for a guy they're not planning on playing for 5 years

    Leave a comment:


  • neckbeard
    replied
    Originally posted by Humberg View Post
    Just one. I'm having a hard time coming up with one. If you break it down:

    1) Leadership - off the charts, buries Quinn and Orton
    That's your subjective opinion. Showy rah-rah displays? Yeah Tebow's off the charts. But REAL leadership? That's VERY debatable...
    2) Response to Pressure - this guy played in all the big games in College, he thrives on this, go back and watch the final couple drives in the BCS championship game against Oklahoma, the guy was amazingly clutch.
    What Tebow did in college is now completely irrelevant. NFL is a whole different game. If you want to talk about "clutch" at the pro level, the Chargers game was within reach and he did nothing at the end.

    3) Passing - okay, here's the big one. But I think it's unfounded at this point. Again, go back and watch the BCS championship and watch some of those throws. More to the point, go back and watch the Houston and San Diego games. He is doing everything the critics said he couldn't. He's getting the ball out in time. He's throwing with accuracy. He's throwing with zip. He's throwing with finesse. He's throwing with power. He throws the flat route. He throws the 10 yard curl. He throws the deep post. He throws the fade. He throws the streak. He throws rolling to his left. He throws rolling back to his right. He throws the deep out (the deep out for god's sake!!!!). You can argue (weakly) his consistency, but I could throw this back and argue this for everyone in their rookie year, Manning included. So basically at this point you'd have to be arguing that he has the skills for all of this (since he's shown that he can do it), but needs practice. Welcome to being a rookie in the NFL. Again, as Houdini alludes to above, the impressive thing is that he got to this point, from being such a "project", after only starting 3 regular season games. Find me a pass he can't make. Go ahead, I dare ya.
    Honestly, IMO (which I know is very much in the minority) I don't think he's shown a heck of a lot of improvement as a pocket passer. Which is what both Elway AND Fox both insist he must become proficient at to succeed.
    4) Running - pretty much one of the best skill sets for running at QB that has come along in awhile. While he is not Vick-esque, I think you have to go back that far to find this good a runner.
    Yeah, he's a great runner. But that's why teams have running backs. He's supposed to be a QB...

    5) Durability - the guy is tough, and he's like 240+, built like a tank. Plus, he started making smarter plays as the year went on running out of bounds etc. I think he'll be much more durable than the other QB's on this team.
    And yet this "tough" and "durable" guy suffered rib injuries AGAINST SCRUB DEFENDERS IN A MEANINGLESS PRESEASON GAME. He missed playing time over that.

    6) Upside - well, he's entering his 2nd year, and I think given the improvement that Houdini points out in the above posts, we can expect big things from him. Really, the sky is the limit. Can you say that for any of the other QB's on this team?
    I don't think that Tebow has shown ANY tendency to improve yet. But Orton has consistently improved as a player each and every year in the NFL...

    The more time goes on, I'm a Tebow guy all the way. In fact, I think he should likely be given 2 or 3 more seasons at the helm before we decide away from him, which I don't think we will. I think he's that good. Find me a reason he's not.
    It didn't take the Cardinals nearly that much time to realize that their own Heisman-winning, NCAA National-Championship-winning QB wasn't an NFL starting QB. Or for Cleveland to discover that Brady Quinn wasn't the answer. Why should the Broncos waste 3 more seasons before deciding?
    Last edited by neckbeard; 05-12-2011, 07:20 AM.

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