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  • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    How about defining some terms? Bust is a term thrown around. What constitutes one? On another thread someone was breaking them down: kind of; sort of; big; little, etc.

    If Knowshon Moreno is a bust, how is he delineated from others who aren't? How good of a player does a first round pick need to be not to be called a bust?

    The draft is an imperfect science. If a first round pick is a starter, is that enough? Do some expect too much?



    More excellent questions. Lets ask those that call him a bust.
    So far:
    FA- Melvin Gordon. Brandon Scherff
    1. Kenneth Murray LB; 2. Shenault WR; 2B. Biadazz Center, 3. OT

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
      Eddie Royal was a 2nd round pick. Rod Smith was undrafted. So I guess by this criterea Eddie Royal is a bust?

      By those standards, no RB will ever live up to TD who was drafted in the 7th, so I guess they are all going to be busts.

      KM may not live up to his #12 pick, but to hold that against KM is pretty rediculous IMO. It's not like he drafted himself.

      He's on the team, regardless of how he got here. If he fails to produce and earn a roster spot, he will be traded or released. I don't hold the fact of where he was drafted against him.
      If you read a little closer you'll see that I actually compared KM to Mike Anderson not TD. I'm not naive enough to expect KM to be the next TD cause he was a once in a generation/life time type of player but apparently it's too much to expect the 12th pick in the draft to be better than Portis, Anderson, Gary, Bell or Hillis. I've never once blamed KM for where he was drafted.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by underrated29 View Post
        I find it soooooooooooo Funny how all of the "smart" fans that know it all and claim Moreno is a bust can NEVER EVER EVER answer this one question.


        Lets do it again:


        Moreno has in his career 2300+ yards and 17td in less than 2 full seasons.
        Just what exactly should his numbers be, since he is a bust?


        (and the crowd falls silent)
        Who cares about his numbers? I care about how the guy dominates the defense at critical times in the game. I care about a guy that can struggle all day to get to the secondary but once he does he goes the distance and doesn't trip over his own feet. I care about a running back that strikes fear in the hearts of the opposition.

        Sammy Winder had respectable numbers but he was no Terrell Davis. Gerald Wilhite had respectable numbers but he was no Terrell Davis. Bernstein and Humphrey had respectable numbers but again, they were no Terrell Davis. I don't dislike Moreno because of his production I'm just realistic about his affect on the outcome of the games he plays in. The guy just doesn't dominate, he just doesn't take the team on his shoulders and run them to the promised land.

        As a rookie Terrell Davis dominated the game. He came on strong and kept going strong for the next half decade. He didn't need a 30 yard run just to get 100 yards. If TD busted a 30, 40, 50 or 60 yard run you bet your ass he had 250 yards on the day; not 100.

        The Broncos have had their fair share of average, journeyman running backs and Moreno fits right into that mold. There's nothing wrong with being a journeyman workhorse but special players they aren't. I would like to see a stud at the running back position that excels in critical points in the game and not just during garbage time.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MaloCS View Post
          Who cares about his numbers? I care about how the guy dominates the defense at critical times in the game.
          It can be proven with numbers as well. Being upset that a guys draft status is help against him is just ridiculous. If you make a large investment in a player then more is needed in return from that player or it is considered a busted investment.

          Originally posted by underrated29 View Post

          Moreno has in his career 2300+ yards and 17td in less than 2 full seasons.
          Just what exactly should his numbers be, since he is a bust?


          (and the crowd falls silent)

          A HB taken in the top 10 is supposed to be a workhorse playmaking elite HB. He should at least be top 10 in the league within the first few years. He still has some time to turn it around, but here is some numbers on what the current top backs drafted in the last 2-4 yrs did in their first two years in the league. Keep in mind most of these guys had there major breakout year in season 3 of their careers.

          Knowshon Moreno; 2311 all purpose yards, 494 touches, 4.6 yards a touch, 17 TD’s


          J. Charles; 2046 APY, 324 Touches, 6.3 YPT, 9 TD's

          C.Johnson; 4024 APY, 702 Touches, 5.7 YPT, 26 TD's

          MJD; 2552 APY, 419 Touches, 6.1 YPT, 24 TD's

          Ray Rice; 2768 YPT, 472 Touches, 5.9 YPT, 8 TD's

          D. Mcfadden; 1386, 267 Touches, 5.2 YPT, 5 TD's

          I didn't even bother to compare him to AP's first two years as he practically ran for more yards on SD's D than Moreno has in his whole career.

          So for Moreno to start earning his keep I would say he needs to get his YPT up to at least 5.5.
          Last edited by username1; 07-19-2011, 09:28 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by nickmeyer View Post
            You guys are really out there look at the stats realize he played on a pass first offense behind a crappy run blocking team and still managed to have over 4 yards a carry get off his nuts, he isn't a bust.
            he is a bust

            it is true he played forpass first teams. it is true the oline was not the best. It is also true that he lacks basic vision that a rb drafted in the first round should have. Look at when he hits the open field. He isnt shift enough to elude defenders. He isnt tough enough to break tackles. Hell he even trips over his own two feet at many times!

            This brings up a serious question about moreno. As a runner, what is he good at? I seriously cannot answer this.


            if moreno was drafted in the 4 round, i dont 5think one can call him a bust. but for the 12th pick of the draft it is clear to me that so far in his career he has not lived up to his draft status.
            Last edited by Syvari; 07-20-2011, 09:14 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by username1 View Post
              It can be proven with numbers as well. Being upset that a guys draft status is help against him is just ridiculous. If you make a large investment in a player then more is needed in return from that player or it is considered a busted investment.




              A HB taken in the top 10 is supposed to be a workhorse playmaking elite HB. He should at least be top 10 in the league within the first few years. He still has some time to turn it around, but here is some numbers on what the current top backs drafted in the last 2-4 yrs did in their first two years in the league. Keep in mind most of these guys had there major breakout year in season 3 of their careers.

              Knowshon Moreno; 2311 all purpose yards, 494 touches, 4.6 yards a touch, 17 TD’s


              J. Charles; 2046 APY, 324 Touches, 6.3 YPT, 9 TD's

              C.Johnson; 4024 APY, 702 Touches, 5.7 YPT, 26 TD's

              MJD; 2552 APY, 419 Touches, 6.1 YPT, 24 TD's

              Ray Rice; 2768 YPT, 472 Touches, 5.9 YPT, 8 TD's

              D. Mcfadden; 1386, 267 Touches, 5.2 YPT, 5 TD's

              I didn't even bother to compare him to AP's first two years as he practically ran for more yards on SD's D than Moreno has in his whole career.

              So for Moreno to start earning his keep I would say he needs to get his YPT up to at least 5.5.


              Nice- Nice post.

              These are some of the best backs in the game today and knowshon is right there with almost all of them. CJ2k blows everyone out but we already know that. So him aside knowshons numbers are greater or equal to them all.

              I find it funny, that just two years ago people Always complained about yards, "well thats great between the 20s but its the points that count" Now we have a RB that gets the points and people want to flip it and say well, anyone can get tds its the yards we need or the YPC.......


              Knowshon has more TDs than all but 2 of them, who happen to be amongst the top 5 in the NFL, Id say top 3 or 4. Yet somehow he is a bust. Pot getting owned by kettle.
              So far:
              FA- Melvin Gordon. Brandon Scherff
              1. Kenneth Murray LB; 2. Shenault WR; 2B. Biadazz Center, 3. OT

              Comment


              • Originally posted by username1 View Post
                It can be proven with numbers as well. Being upset that a guys draft status is help against him is just ridiculous. If you make a large investment in a player then more is needed in return from that player or it is considered a busted investment.




                A HB taken in the top 10 is supposed to be a workhorse playmaking elite HB. He should at least be top 10 in the league within the first few years. He still has some time to turn it around, but here is some numbers on what the current top backs drafted in the last 2-4 yrs did in their first two years in the league. Keep in mind most of these guys had there major breakout year in season 3 of their careers.

                Knowshon Moreno; 2311 all purpose yards, 494 touches, 4.6 yards a touch, 17 TD’s


                J. Charles; 2046 APY, 324 Touches, 6.3 YPT, 9 TD's

                C.Johnson; 4024 APY, 702 Touches, 5.7 YPT, 26 TD's

                MJD; 2552 APY, 419 Touches, 6.1 YPT, 24 TD's

                Ray Rice; 2768 YPT, 472 Touches, 5.9 YPT, 8 TD's

                D. Mcfadden; 1386, 267 Touches, 5.2 YPT, 5 TD's

                I didn't even bother to compare him to AP's first two years as he practically ran for more yards on SD's D than Moreno has in his whole career.

                So for Moreno to start earning his keep I would say he needs to get his YPT up to at least 5.5.
                J. Charles has upwars for 4000 APY
                Ray Rice has 4544 APY
                D. Mcfadden has 3050 APY
                MJD has 7,347 APY
                CJohnson has 5606 APY

                Knowshon Moreno has 2311 APY

                understand he's been in the league for 2 years but he is not producing like the others listed above

                Comment


                • Originally posted by underrated29 View Post
                  Nice- Nice post.

                  These are some of the best backs in the game today and knowshon is right there with almost all of them. CJ2k blows everyone out but we already know that. So him aside knowshons numbers are greater or equal to them all.

                  I find it funny, that just two years ago people Always complained about yards, "well thats great between the 20s but its the points that count" Now we have a RB that gets the points and people want to flip it and say well, anyone can get tds its the yards we need or the YPC.......


                  Knowshon has more TDs than all but 2 of them, who happen to be amongst the top 5 in the NFL, Id say top 3 or 4. Yet somehow he is a bust. Pot getting owned by kettle.
                  no they are not close to being equal. look at the amout of carries moreno had compared to the other guys. he he had almost 200 more than charles but only about 170 more yards!
                  Last edited by Syvari; 07-20-2011, 09:24 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by underrated29 View Post
                    Nice- Nice post.

                    These are some of the best backs in the game today and knowshon is right there with almost all of them. CJ2k blows everyone out but we already know that. So him aside knowshons numbers are greater or equal to them all.

                    I find it funny, that just two years ago people Always complained about yards, "well thats great between the 20s but its the points that count" Now we have a RB that gets the points and people want to flip it and say well, anyone can get tds its the yards we need or the YPC.......


                    Knowshon has more TDs than all but 2 of them, who happen to be amongst the top 5 in the NFL, Id say top 3 or 4. Yet somehow he is a bust. Pot getting owned by kettle.
                    look closely at the numbers

                    moreno had less yards for with way more carries!
                    he had 200 more yards than charles but with 170 more carries.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MaloCS View Post
                      Who cares about his numbers? I care about how the guy dominates the defense at critical times in the game. I care about a guy that can struggle all day to get to the secondary but once he does he goes the distance and doesn't trip over his own feet. I care about a running back that strikes fear in the hearts of the opposition.

                      Sammy Winder had respectable numbers but he was no Terrell Davis. Gerald Wilhite had respectable numbers but he was no Terrell Davis. Bernstein and Humphrey had respectable numbers but again, they were no Terrell Davis. I don't dislike Moreno because of his production I'm just realistic about his affect on the outcome of the games he plays in. The guy just doesn't dominate, he just doesn't take the team on his shoulders and run them to the promised land.

                      As a rookie Terrell Davis dominated the game. He came on strong and kept going strong for the next half decade. He didn't need a 30 yard run just to get 100 yards. If TD busted a 30, 40, 50 or 60 yard run you bet your ass he had 250 yards on the day; not 100.

                      The Broncos have had their fair share of average, journeyman running backs and Moreno fits right into that mold. There's nothing wrong with being a journeyman workhorse but special players they aren't. I would like to see a stud at the running back position that excels in critical points in the game and not just during garbage time.


                      And here is where everyone turns a Blind Eye.

                      WE KNOW:
                      -that the OL sucked
                      -We were the 2nd worst team in the nfl last year
                      -That no RB under mcdaniels has run for over 1k yards
                      - We had the worst rush attempts in the nfl
                      -We had the worst Rush offense in the NFL
                      -We passed the ball pretty much more than anyone
                      -Joshs playcalling was extremely predictable that even the defense called out the plays we were running.

                      We know all of that. So how exactly is a runner supposed to do what you are asking. Strike fear into defenses like you said when you consider all of the above? How can that happen.



                      Here is another fun and interesting stat that No One Ever Answers!!


                      Knowshon despite is 4+ ypc this year and despite getting hit in the backfield immediately (which they always claims he could do better), Knowshon averaged OVER 10 Yards Per Catch!!!!!


                      10 Yards Per Catch- Lets examine that one: Why is that? Knowshon does not run routes and catch passes like WR- I can only think of two times that he did run an out route and caught a pass (both were for tds). So that means that he is catching the ball at or behind the LOS and running for at leas 10+ yards. WHy is that?


                      So remember he is averaging over 10+ Yards per catch.- Could it possibly be, of all the amazing things that happen on our team, just maybe, who knows-this is really out there, but perhaps by the grace of the football gods, Knowshon Moreno averages over 10 yards per catch because he is *gasp*- Not getting hit immediately behind the LOS when he takes a hand off.

                      I know, I know, that is such a ludicrous thought, but hang with me. Maybe he averages over 10ypc (way more than the greats- LT, MJD, Rice- you name it) because he has a blocker or two, because he has more than 3 inches to make a move before getting hit, because when we actually give the guy half a second to think and see the field he can make it a nice run.



                      Let that marinate for a while everyone while so you can come up with other excuses.
                      So far:
                      FA- Melvin Gordon. Brandon Scherff
                      1. Kenneth Murray LB; 2. Shenault WR; 2B. Biadazz Center, 3. OT

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BlueOrange7 View Post
                        J. Charles has upwars for 4000 APY
                        Ray Rice has 4544 APY
                        D. Mcfadden has 3050 APY
                        MJD has 7,347 APY
                        CJohnson has 5606 APY

                        Knowshon Moreno has 2311 APY

                        understand he's been in the league for 2 years but he is not producing like the others listed above

                        And are the other guys on the 2nd worst team in the league, with the worst OL, worst rush attack, worst rush attempts and formerly the worst coach/playcaller?

                        We are also talking about the top 7 Rbs or so right there in the entire NFL. We understand we are now comparing someone who Many claim a bust, to the top 7 out of 32....

                        Thats fair?




                        Originally posted by Syvari View Post
                        no they are not close to being equal. look at the amout of carries moreno had compared to the other guys. he he had almost 200 more than charles but only about 170 more yards!
                        Originally posted by Syvari View Post
                        look closely at the numbers

                        moreno had less yards for with way more carries!
                        he had 200 more yards than charles but with 170 more carries.

                        yes, I see that he had more carries, I also see that he had WAAAAYYYYYY more TDs......Those guys can have the yards at the end of the game. I want the points, you know, the things that actually win the game. I could care less if knowshon ran for 15-20 more yards a game- (thats about what it would equal out to)
                        So far:
                        FA- Melvin Gordon. Brandon Scherff
                        1. Kenneth Murray LB; 2. Shenault WR; 2B. Biadazz Center, 3. OT

                        Comment


                        • True he had more td. But the other guys were alsosharing the load with other tbs. Charles had tho t. Jones. Rice had mcgahee. MJD had Fred Taylor. Moreno had nobody stealing carries away from him majorly. Yea he has buck last year but he didn't have as many carries as Moreno did

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Syvari View Post
                            True he had more td. But the other guys were alsosharing the load with other tbs. Charles had tho t. Jones. Rice had mcgahee. MJD had Fred Taylor. Moreno had nobody stealing carries away from him majorly. Yea he has buck last year but he didn't have as many carries as Moreno did


                            True-

                            Charles and T-jones were either 1st or 2nd in the entire nfl in rushing though. almost a complete opposite of our beloved team.

                            I think, could be wrong, didnt check - but rice/mcgahee is probably comparable to knowshon/buck---didnt mcgahee do majority of the goal work and not many yards/attmepts? I think so- but not certain.
                            So far:
                            FA- Melvin Gordon. Brandon Scherff
                            1. Kenneth Murray LB; 2. Shenault WR; 2B. Biadazz Center, 3. OT

                            Comment


                            • Yes Moreno did not have alot going for him because all the factors like having bad oline etc. However look at the few times he did make it into the open field. This is where a rb should excel because the nature of his position.

                              He isn't fast. He is constantly getting caught from behind

                              He isn't quick enough to elude defenders. He trips over his own two feet. (who does that)

                              He isn't tough enough to break tackles. Moreno is constantly arm tackled!

                              Moreno has poor vision. Watch tape. The the guy runs into a crowd of defenders instead of running for daylight.

                              Can you answer me this one question? Okay. What is Moreno good at?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Syvari View Post
                                Yes Moreno did not have alot going for him because all the factors like having bad oline etc. However look at the few times he did make it into the open field. This is where a rb should excel because the nature of his position.

                                He isn't fast. He is constantly getting caught from behind

                                He isn't quick enough to elude defenders. He trips over his own two feet. (who does that)

                                He isn't tough enough to break tackles. Moreno is constantly arm tackled!

                                Moreno has poor vision. Watch tape. The the guy runs into a crowd of defenders instead of running for daylight.

                                Can you answer me this one question? Okay. What is Moreno good at?
                                Great points that should not be overlooked or dismissed by stats generated in garbage time.

                                I can definitely understand the poor OL argument but you bring up a great point about Moreno's open field production. In my opinion, a RB can struggle all day to get to the secondary but once he does he should be able to make the defense pay. Terrell Davis had days where he struggled to get to the secondary but then, all of a sudden, he gets the space and he's off to the races and a quick touchdown. Moreno just hasn't shown the ability to do this.

                                Comment

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