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Not the QB's - its the system

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  • Not the QB's - its the system

    Let me begin by publicly apologizing to Kyle Orton. I was one of those convinced that much of the bad O play was on him and that things would improve with another QB...Quinn or Tebow but the last two weeks have convinced me otherwise.

    Orton looked bad in this system and Tebow looks even worse. The only reason that Kyle wasn't sacked even more is as a vet he was willing to get rid of the ball more often than hold it too long to make a play. Any way you look at it our O line has some major issues. Kyle was under fire often and it's just as bad with Tebow.

    I'm not saying that the FO is trying to sabotage anyone but if you take a look at it they inherited 3 QB's who were not their choice...two vets (who are free agents) and a first round draft pick that was not their pick. Fox's statement that Tebow needs to dramatically improve as a pocket passer (and yes he does) just insinuates they are refusing to adjust the O to his skill set.

    Again, where are the short curls and underneath routes for Orton, Tebow or whatever QB we have under centre.

    I'm getting more convinced with each game and comment that the FO wants to bring in "their" guy but if the current system remains I don't care who it is they will be doomed to fail.

  • #2
    There's no conspiracy or sabotage. Tebow is under contract next year, so it makes sense to get him some experience. The rest of the team is struggling just as much as Tebow. The offensive line is not good at pass protecting or run blocking.

    Tebow is gonna take his lumps in every game. Hopefully he can show some improvement. I think the Lock Out has contributed to making the new rookie QBs like Ponder, Newton, and Dalton look better than they would in year's past because defenses are so far behind the eightball. They will struggle down the stretch and next season will be in for a sophomore slump. I bring them up, because some of their play is putting pressure on Tebow to be good out of the gates. Difference is, the Broncos are a worse team than all of those other teams, and rebuilding from the ground up.

    Hopefully, Tebow and the system can morph into something that makes everyone play a little bit better. The team collapse showcased on Sunday, needs to be prevented.

    Point blank, the coaches need to find a way to turn it around. Kyle Orton was not the answer because he's not gonna be in Denver next year, so it still made little sense not to see what you have with Tebow.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Wolf Brother View Post
      There's no conspiracy or sabotage. Tebow is under contract next year, so it makes sense to get him some experience. The rest of the team is struggling just as much as Tebow. The offensive line is not good at pass protecting or run blocking.

      Tebow is gonna take his lumps in every game. Hopefully he can show some improvement. I think the Lock Out has contributed to making the new rookie QBs like Ponder, Newton, and Dalton look better than they would in year's past because defenses are so far behind the eightball. They will struggle down the stretch and next season will be in for a sophomore slump. I bring them up, because some of their play is putting pressure on Tebow to be good out of the gates. Difference is, the Broncos are a worse team than all of those other teams, and rebuilding from the ground up.

      Hopefully, Tebow and the system can morph into something that makes everyone play a little bit better. The team collapse showcased on Sunday, needs to be prevented.

      Point blank, the coaches need to find a way to turn it around. Kyle Orton was not the answer because he's not gonna be in Denver next year, so it still made little sense not to see what you have with Tebow.

      If the defenses are behind...wouldn't Tebow have the same edge if not more than the rookies?

      A year in the league v. none. 1 1/2 training camps v. 1/2 a training camp.

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      • #4
        The offense has been putting up horrible games since the start of 2009

        It is not a effort to make Tebow look bad...it is horrible players combined with horrible coaches.

        With the lockout I guess we can try to give the coaches this year a pass but any coach from last year that is still here should be considered for replacement imo.

        As for Orton, twice in 16 games I have seen him be part of a fumble during the last drive of a one score game only to see him dive back first in a weak effort to recover the fumble. That is all I need to know about him and his competative desires. We could release Orton right now and I am 100% sure we would never regret the decision.
        Let's Ride!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by cdnbroncosfan View Post
          Let me begin by publicly apologizing to Kyle Orton. I was one of those convinced that much of the bad O play was on him and that things would improve with another QB...Quinn or Tebow but the last two weeks have convinced me otherwise.

          Orton looked bad in this system and Tebow looks even worse. The only reason that Kyle wasn't sacked even more is as a vet he was willing to get rid of the ball more often than hold it too long to make a play. Any way you look at it our O line has some major issues. Kyle was under fire often and it's just as bad with Tebow.

          I'm not saying that the FO is trying to sabotage anyone but if you take a look at it they inherited 3 QB's who were not their choice...two vets (who are free agents) and a first round draft pick that was not their pick. Fox's statement that Tebow needs to dramatically improve as a pocket passer (and yes he does) just insinuates they are refusing to adjust the O to his skill set.

          Again, where are the short curls and underneath routes for Orton, Tebow or whatever QB we have under centre.

          I'm getting more convinced with each game and comment that the FO wants to bring in "their" guy but if the current system remains I don't care who it is they will be doomed to fail.
          They DID adjust the system! We just had a thread about that a few days ago that the coaching staff adjusted the system more towards a college-type Offense! Tebow didn't get it done in that adjusted system either.
          sigpic

          BRING BACK ORANGE!!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by HardlyNormal View Post
            If the defenses are behind...wouldn't Tebow have the same edge if not more than the rookies?

            A year in the league v. none. 1 1/2 training camps v. 1/2 a training camp.
            In other words, there's no tape on Newton, Dalton, Ponder. There's tape on Tebow from games he played last year and some gameplanning by D-coordinators. After a rookie year, the rest of the league can catch up by studying tape, that's why folks like Matt Ryan struggle in their sophomore year in the NFL.

            Tebow is in the sophomore year when typically QBs struggle. The lockout didn't help him improve with receivers, nor did lack of reps with the first team. Tebow literally has played with few reps. The first week against Oakland he came in after half time, then the bye limits practice time under the new collective bargaining rules, so although he was at the facility working by himself, he could not work with receivers.

            Its like a perfect storm of bad timing. BUT, it still makes sense to play Tebow and get him experienced to game speed and see realistically what he needs to work on. It also shows that the rest of the team needs to improve as well. Defense, Coaching, Offense, Line play. Its a collective problem right now.

            I am not making excuses for Tebow. But understandably, he's gonna struggle. Main thing he must prove he can do, imo, is hit some intermediate passes by stepping up into the pocket or just getting rid of the ball.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by shardar View Post
              They DID adjust the system! We just had a thread about that a few days ago that the coaching staff adjusted the system more towards a college-type Offense! Tebow didn't get it done in that adjusted system either.
              They adjusted it the wrong way. There were more deep throws. More routes developing downfield. More, more, more! Routes downfield are lower percentage plays. You can't live off of them like we are trying to. That's how we get so many 3 and outs.

              I saw a young QB on Sunday afternoon play better than I've ever seen him play in the 4th quarter. Yeah, he had a pick 6, but it was the throw that was bad. Not the read. So, to me, that's still positive. Good read, bad throw. Correct the throw, move on.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
                They adjusted it the wrong way. There were more deep throws. More routes developing downfield. More, more, more! Routes downfield are lower percentage plays. You can't live off of them like we are trying to. That's how we get so many 3 and outs.

                I saw a young QB on Sunday afternoon play better than I've ever seen him play in the 4th quarter. Yeah, he had a pick 6, but it was the throw that was bad. Not the read. So, to me, that's still positive. Good read, bad throw. Correct the throw, move on.
                Mark Schlereth analyzed the game and said that the Broncos DID call several underneath routes/screen routes/quick outs etc. but that Tebow either hesitated on most of them or was sacked before he could get the ball out.
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                • #9
                  I do have serious concerns about McCoy and Fox's offense as it has been ran this year. Maybe it's a talent thing as much as a scheme/playcalling thing.

                  But, it's also the QB's. We have gotten terrible production from the position from about this time last year. Incidentally, we've also lost the vast majority of our games in that same timespan.

                  Production at QB is key if you want to win games. With the new rules, this is even more important.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
                    I do have serious concerns about McCoy and Fox's offense as it has been ran this year. Maybe it's a talent thing as much as a scheme/playcalling thing.

                    But, it's also the QB's. We have gotten terrible production from the position from about this time last year. Incidentally, we've also lost the vast majority of our games in that same timespan.

                    Production at QB is key if you want to win games. With the new rules, this is even more important.
                    And like Elway said after the game, it's the quarterback's job to convert third down. That's basically his primary responsibility.
                    sigpic

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                      Mark Schlereth analyzed the game and said that the Broncos DID call several underneath routes/screen routes/quick outs etc. but that Tebow either hesitated on most of them or was sacked before he could get the ball out.
                      Several probably wasn't enough.

                      I'd like to see more bootlegs, moving Tebow around, mix it up a little. A straight dropback, read, send everyone deep obviously isn't working, so you need to try something different.

                      I honestly do not believe that our starting QB for 2012 is on our roster now, so I don't know. I said this before, maybe they are having him run the offense they want to run to see if he can do it, and to evaluate other players and see how they do. At this point, maybe they have made their mind on Tebow, and have other motives besides "make Tebow look good". That would explain a lot, at least to me.

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                      • #12
                        Tim looks the way he has in practice for the past 2 years. He is playing because of rhetoric and pressure from his fan base. His problems start before he throws the ball. He can not read the D. He does not know where his receivers are on the field. Basic stuff before the system.

                        I believe if he continues to play this way he should be offered a position change. If he does not accept that, he should be released.

                        I know many of his disciples would like a system built around him. This would be unfair to the new coach and the other young players on this team.

                        Let another town deal with billboards and Internet fads.

                        I know his own behavior is fine, but what he brings with him is disruptive.
                        Waiting to hear from adoption agency

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
                          Several probably wasn't enough.

                          I'd like to see more bootlegs, moving Tebow around, mix it up a little. A straight dropback, read, send everyone deep obviously isn't working, so you need to try something different.

                          I honestly do not believe that our starting QB for 2012 is on our roster now, so I don't know. I said this before, maybe they are having him run the offense they want to run to see if he can do it, and to evaluate other players and see how they do. At this point, maybe they have made their mind on Tebow, and have other motives besides "make Tebow look good". That would explain a lot, at least to me.
                          As people have said though, you're not going to gimmick Tim Tebow into being a good quarterback. And if you basically do things that don't allow him to work on pocket throws - throws he'll HAVE TO learn at some point if he wants to make it in the league - you're basically enabling him not to work from the pocket ever.
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                            And like Elway said after the game, it's the quarterback's job to convert third down. That's basically his primary responsibility.
                            And it's the coaches responsibility to put him in a position to succeed. He's had his opportunities and missed, but the playcalling isn't doing him any favors. Neither is Royal running a route 1 yard short of the first down.

                            I'd say it's 50/50 Tebow/Playcalling. Plenty of blame to go around.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PowderAddict View Post
                              And it's the coaches responsibility to put him in a position to succeed. He's had his opportunities and missed, but the playcalling isn't doing him any favors. Neither is Royal running a route 1 yard short of the first down.

                              I'd say it's 50/50 Tebow/Playcalling. Plenty of blame to go around.
                              I'm not a big Mike McCoy fan thus far.

                              However, I defer to people like Mark Schlereth and Alfred Williams (people who actually played the game and played for the Broncos) when they say that the playcalling wasn't the issue and that most of the offense's problems on Sunday were on Tim Tebow.
                              sigpic

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