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Haven't seen any mention of this regarding Tebow's sacks....

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  • #61
    Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
    Once again, here come the excuses.


    No one seems to remember that

    "Tebow doesn't need a clean pocket"
    "Tebow can generate the running game"
    "Tebow doesn't need elite WRS"
    "Tebow's mobility will help prevent sacks"

    I thought Orton need a near perfect team around him? The reason we should start Tebow is because he doesn't need a great team around him and when the play breaks down he's at his best right?

    Did you read my original post to start the thread? Tebow playing as TEBOW, not trying to play like Pocket Orton, does have mobility that helps him escape sacks, and is at his best when the play breaks down. Problem is, he's not playing to his strengths, he's not playing HIS game, he's playing how everyone else and their brother thinks he must play to be a starting NFL QB.

    Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
    I'm not an NFL coach, and all I have to go on is what I see on TV.

    I agree with you about the Wake thing. That's the only time I've seen him do it. I thought it was amazing that he did. Most of the time, he feels pressure and starts running around like he's being chased by a dog.

    To me, and this is only my opinion, holding on to the ball like he's doing is a combination of:

    Lack of confidence in his ability to anticipate a receiver coming open
    Instincts to take off if his first read is covered
    Not trusting himself to read the coverage correctly
    Not wanting to turn the ball over
    Is that meant to be a criticism?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by ohiotebow View Post
      Did you read my original post to start the thread? Tebow playing as TEBOW, not trying to play like Pocket Orton, does have mobility that helps him escape sacks, and is at his best when the play breaks down. Problem is, he's not playing to his strengths, he's not playing HIS game, he's playing how everyone else and their brother thinks he must play to be a starting NFL QB.



      Is that meant to be a criticism?
      Tebow isn't going revolutionize the game, and at some point he as to show fundamentally can be an NFL QB, and he's yet to show it. No team in the league is gonna let him yardball it every game.

      and, yes and no. I think he's scared to death of turning the ball over.

      That's both good, and bad. I'd say more bad than good.
      sigpic

      Hooray, beer!

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      • #63
        Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
        Tebow isn't going revolutionize the game, and at some point he as to show fundamentally can be an NFL QB, and he's yet to show it. No team in the league is gonna let him yardball it every game.

        and, yes and no. I think he's scared to death of turning the ball over.

        That's both good, and bad. I'd say more bad than good.
        I'll be sure to look for your "'atta boy" comments if Tebow starts flinging it down the field fearlessly all of a sudden in the next few games and his INT rate goes way up.

        You and phaytal, who's already given Tebow permission to throw interceptions with no criticism so long as he's throwing the ball down the field.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by ohiotebow View Post
          I'll be sure to look for your "'atta boy" comments if Tebow starts flinging it down the field fearlessly all of a sudden in the next few games and his INT rate goes way up.

          You and phaytal, who's already given Tebow permission to throw interceptions with no criticism so long as he's throwing the ball down the field.
          I've said it quite a few times. I don't care if he throws picks, as long as he's trying to make plays. I don't really even care that he threw the pick 6, because at least he was trying to play the position.
          sigpic

          Hooray, beer!

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          • #65
            Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
            Tebow isn't going revolutionize the game, and at some point he as to show fundamentally can be an NFL QB, and he's yet to show it. No team in the league is gonna let him yardball it every game.

            and, yes and no. I think he's scared to death of turning the ball over.

            That's both good, and bad. I'd say more bad than good.
            See, you're certain that Tebow isn't going to revolutionize the game. Most probably hold that opinion, but I see something different.

            Let's see if you see what I see. I see:

            1. Tebow can't read a defense.
            2. Tebow's feet are horrible
            3. Tebow's release is horrible
            4. Tebow's accuracy is horrible
            5. Tebow doesn't anticipate throws (see can't read defense)

            Let's keep the list simple. The way I see it, Tebow's issues are broken down into 2 categories. Understanding defenses, which we've already established today aren't that complicated and mechanics.

            We've seen the inaccurate throws. But we've...okay...I've seen some throws that are right on the money. I've also seen Tebow take over a few games. Let's keep that in mind for later.

            A lot of Tebow's throws, he's stepping sideways. Instead of putting the front foot on the receiver and going forward toward the target, he's steping straight sideways and fading away from the target. The way I see it, even Brett Favre couldn't be accurate like that. So, let's say he fixes his mechanics...for real this time. He could be more accurate than any of us think.

            Now, let's look at the defenses. Let's say he learns the basic concepts. And then within that framework, he learns the nuances of those basic concepts. Such as, whatever you're going to do, look the opposite. If you're going to throw a 9 route to your left, look right first, move the safety, then come back to the left.

            Now back to the "taking over games" part. Tebow was able to generate comebacks and pretty much take over games with the list of deficiencies above. Those deficiencies, at least in my opinion, can be taken away. Anyone can learn to read a defense. Any healthy athlete can learn to throw with proper mechanics. The anticipation? That's a little trickier. Will that come for Tebow? It could. But that's the point. We don't know.

            That's why I said I'd like to keep Tebow. To me, Tebow doesn't need to become an Aaron Rodgers level of passer to revolutionize the game. He needs to become a Kyle Orton level of passer. Then I think he'd win championships. What I don't want to have happen is that we let Tebow go, he develops into something really good, and we're sitting here struggling with a young QB who doesn't quite get it yet. So my keeping of Tebow is basically insurance and protection against Tebow going someplace else, and then coming back to bite us later. One thing you can't ignore in any athlete is will, determination, and a chip on their shoulder.

            To me, Tebow could be like the Seabiscuit of the NFL. He's built all wrong. He can't do this, he can't do that. But when you put him in a spot, then he just might have that innate quality that pushes him past everyone else. I can't overlook that. And I don't think it would be wise for anyone to overlook that.
            Last edited by Crazy8; 11-02-2011, 01:13 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Crazy8 View Post
              See, you're certain that Tebow isn't going to revolutionize the game. Most probably hold that opinion, but I see something different.

              Let's see if you see what I see. I see:

              1. Tebow can't read a defense.
              2. Tebow's feet are horrible
              3. Tebow's release is horrible
              4. Tebow's accuracy is horrible
              5. Tebow doesn't anticipate throws (see can't read defense)

              Let's keep the list simple. The way I see it, Tebow's issues are broken down into 2 categories. Understanding defenses, which we've already established today aren't that complicated and mechanics.

              We've seen the inaccurate throws. But we've...okay...I've seen some throws that are right on the money. I've also seen Tebow take over a few games. Let's keep that in mind for later.

              A lot of Tebow's throws, he's stepping sideways. Instead of putting the front foot on the receiver and going forward toward the target, he's steping straight sideways and fading away from the target. The way I see it, even Brett Favre couldn't be accurate like that. So, let's say he fixes his mechanics...for real this time. He could be more accurate than any of us think.

              Now, let's look at the defenses. Let's say he learns the basic concepts. And then within that framework, he learns the nuances of those basic concepts. Such as, whatever you're going to do, look the opposite. If you're going to throw a 9 route to your left, look right first, move the safety, then come back to the left.

              Now back to the "taking over games" part. Tebow was able to generate comebacks and pretty much take over games with the list of deficiencies above. Those deficiencies, at least in my opinion, can be taken away. Anyone can learn to read a defense. Any healthy athlete can learn to throw with proper mechanics. The anticipation? That's a little trickier. Will that come for Tebow? It could. But that's the point. We don't know.

              That's why I said I'd like to keep Tebow. To me, Tebow doesn't need to become an Aaron Rodgers level of passer to revolutionize the game. He needs to become a Kyle Orton level of passer. Then I think he'd win championships. What I don't want to have happen is that we let Tebow go, he develops into something really good, and we're sitting here struggling with a young QB who doesn't quite get it yet. So my keeping of Tebow is basically insurance.
              I just don't think whatever he does in his career is going to open the door for waves of "he's like tebow" comparisons. If he becomes special (even though I have my doubts, but I think its not entirely out of the question) he's going to be one of a kind.

              That's all I meant.
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              • #67
                Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
                I just don't think whatever he does in his career is going to open the door for waves of "he's like tebow" comparisons. If he becomes special (even though I have my doubts, but I think its not entirely out of the question) he's going to be one of a kind.

                That's all I meant.

                Man...that was a long post I wrote if that was all you meant. :doh:

                And if that's all you meant, then I agree with you...

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by killbox916 View Post
                  Franklin needs help...I was watching the Dolphin game again, and C. Wake was eating his lunch.
                  Franklin failed hard against Det.

                  On two plays he look to setup like he was getting help on the outside and did not get it. This lead to the DE easily beating him around the corner.

                  Both led to sacks, one led to a TD.

                  What I do not get is our OL was so amazing while we were winning Super Bowls yet they needed help by RBs and FBs on chips to pass rushers.

                  Which idiot thinks our OL is so good now that on one of the plays I mentioned above a guy ran right by the outside of the pass rusher and did not even try to chip him!?!?

                  Seriously...coaches think the 1997 OL needed help with RB chips.
                  coaches think the current OL does not need help with RB chips.

                  Logically then

                  Coaches think this OL is better then 1997 OL because this OL does not need chips?!?!

                  GOSH DARN IT I WANT CHIPS AND SALSA!!

                  The difference between the 1997-1998 OL and the one now is having a man who will eat up our RBs and FBs if they do not get that chip laid into the pass rusher before they start their pattern.

                  edit - oh ya one last bonus of a chip...the player who does it ends up being a checkdown in case the QB needs help and does not have anywhere to go. Oh but wait our offense is too good to need any of this foolishness.
                  Last edited by Hadez; 11-02-2011, 02:45 PM.
                  Let's Ride!

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                  • #69
                    GOSH DARN IT I WANT CHIPS AND SALSA!!

                    LOL, I want some "chips" and salsa too damnit....maybe a little queso even...haha

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by killbox916 View Post
                      LOL, I want some "chips" and salsa too damnit....maybe a little queso even...haha
                      a little guacamole and sour cream on it.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ohiotebow View Post
                        Tebow has taken more sacks in each of the last two games than he took in all 3 of his starts last year combined. Interestingly, he took zero sacks in the 2nd half against San Diego this year. What is the cause for all these sacks? The obvious answer is "he's holding onto the ball too long", and that is part of it, but that's too easy an answer to explain everything. "Why" he's holding the ball too long is another discussion (I personally think it has a lot to do with the playcalling). I think the biggest reason he is taking drastically more sacks this year is because he is trying so hard to make a play "from the pocket" and not break off a run when things break down in the pocket, like he did last season. All the "experts" have beat on Tebow over, and over, and over again about how he needs to make plays "from the pocket" and not make so many runs from the pocket. I think he's heard all those "experts" and is doing his level best to stay in the pocket and make a passing play instead of getting a few yards with his feet when the pocket collapses. Unfortunately, that hamstrings one of his greatest strengths, his mobility and his ability to extend plays. That, in my opinion, is why he's taken so many more sacks this year. I believe it also has a LOT to do with why the 3rd down conversions have gone into the tank. The playcalling and all the 3rd and LONG downs obviously don't help, but Tebow has been doing very little "improvisational" running this year to extend the play and get a few yards instead of getting sacked and no yards or losing yards.

                        Everyone beat up on Orton for taking sacks instead of extending the play by running for a few yards or a first down when there was an opening. Tebow was great at that last year and had a much better 3rd down conversion rate than this year. This year, he hasn't done it very much.

                        Discuss?
                        I'd have to check the stats on his 3rd down conversions this year, however last year as a team we sucked on 3rd down conversion and yes that includes BOTH Orton & Tebow. Both Orton and Tebow were converting 3rd downs at a pitiful rate, the difference in their conversion rate was nominal (less than a percentage point). I can’t remember the exact number but I was involved in many discussions setting people straight when they believed Orton was worse on 3rd down conversions than Tebow. Again as a TEAM we sucked and overall our conversion rate was in the low 30% range and for both Orton and Tebow. So if Tebow is doing worse on 3rd down this year than he did last year well that's just horrible...I did not think we could do worse than last season in that category.

                        Now there may be something to your holding on to the ball too long theory, however there were a many plays he did try to take it down to run and then he got sacked anyway. Not EVERYTHING is on Tebow but I do blame the majority of the sacks on him. O-Line has its problems but those problems were magnified 100% once he started playing. But it's only been two starts this year...overall a bad two starts but let's see what he can do against the Raiders.

                        Thx,
                        Joe
                        To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffering.

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                        • #72
                          I think we have put unreal expectations on Tebow. Tebow is not going to be a good QB in a few starts. He is a work in progress, and I believe he will improve week by week. He is not going to make this team a great team this year. Play Tebow now is solely to see if he can be the QB of the future. Orton today is the better QB, but we know he is not the future. Can Tebow grow into the QB of the future in the next few weeks... yet to be seen.
                          I'm kind of like a big deal... sort of like a superhero.

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