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  • Use of influence by the Offensive Line

    db32 mentioned this in a conversation we had on the thread titled "Spread Offense Viability". Since I'm interested in line play, I went back and studied the plays in the KC game, all 55 of them.

    Just in case anyone isn't familiar with influence, it's when an offensive lineman moves away from the play and takes a defender with him sometimes without even touching him. In some Wing-T playbooks it's called GOB/Guard Opposite Back, for example.

    KC's D was playing a straight 50. On one play the back side O-line from the Guard to the TE influenced and took both inside backers out of the play which went inside the play side tackle.

    Another interesting thing they did was have the tackle set up in pass pro while the rest of the OL was run blocking. It fooled Tamba Hali every time with him and either Clady or Franklin just standing there looking at each other while the play went away.

    I was thinking about influence and the Option game and the read the QB must make, when I realized that the line is taught not to block the read man. Actually, that is a form of influence, too. Influence is built into any Option attack in that it forces a defender to move himself.

    A point that has been made about the Broncos running Option is how it forces defenses to play disciplined assignments. The way current NFL defenders play, especially defensive ends and outside linebackers, is to go upfield. When facing a direct snap/shotgun formation their burst often takes them past ball depth. Such a move takes the defender out of position to make a play. Vince Lombardi's Power Sweep and attacking adjustments to it is a classic example of how to exploit defenders going upfield and taking themselves out of the play.

    Beyond utilizing the exceptional rushing ability of the running QB, the Broncos have accomplished turning direct snap/shotgun formations into a true balanced run/pass formation. Most NFL teams pass and occasionally run from direct snap/shotgun. When defending the Broncos, formation recognition is as useless as gaydar in Germany. IMO this is a quantum leap by NFL standards.
    Last edited by samparnell; 12-08-2011, 07:18 PM.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  • #2
    Make 'em think, make 'em slow.

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    • #3
      Sam, once again you have helped me understand better
      how this offense is operating.

      Thanks :thumb:
      - Go Broncos 2017 and Beyond! -

      Super Bowl 50 CHAMPIONS!

      Comment


      • #4
        Plus they can do so many different things with out having to rely on multiple personel changes in tune making the offense harder to defend...film work and prepertion will not help in this case
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Originally posted by samparnell View Post
          db32 mentioned this in a conversation we had on the thread titled "Spread Offense Viability". Since I'm interested in line play, I went back and studied the plays in the KC game, all 55 of them.

          Just in case anyone isn't familiar with influence, it's when an offensive lineman moves away from the play and takes a defender with him sometimes without even touching him. In some Wing-T playbooks it's called GOB/Guard Opposite Back, for example.

          KC's D was playing a straight 50. On one play the back side O-line from the guard to the TE influenced and took both inside backers out of the play which went inside the play side tackle.

          Another interesting thing they did was have the tackle set up in pass pro while the rest of the OL was run blocking. It fooled Tamba Hali every time with him and either Clady or Franklin just standing there looking at each other while the play went away.

          I was thinking about influence and the Option game and the read the QB must make, when I realized that the line is taught not to block the read man. Actually, that is a form of influence, too. Influence is built into any Option attack in that it forces a defender to move himself.

          A point that has been made about the Broncos running Option is how it forces defenses to play disciplined assignments. The way current NFL defenders play, especially defensive ends and outside linebackers, is to go upfield. When facing a direct snap/shotgun formation their burst often takes them past ball depth. Such a move takes the defender out of position to make a play. Vince Lombardi's Power Sweep and attacking adjustments to it is a classic example of how to exploit defenders going upfield and taking themselves out of the play.

          Beyond utilizing the exceptional rushing ability of the running QB, the Broncos have accomplished turning direct snap/shotgun formations into a true balanced run/pass formation. Most NFL teams pass and occasionally run from direct snap/shotgun. When defending the Broncos, formation recognition is as useless as gaydar in Germany. IMO this is a quantum leap by NFL standards.
          Sam, does this make and pre-snap reads, and adjustments based off of those reads, impossible by the D?

          And, by consequence, does this make reading the D alignment easier for the QB?

          I'm wondering if this was part of Meyer's (or someone else's) intentions in implementing their system?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Southtown View Post
            Sam, does this make and pre-snap reads, and adjustments based off of those reads, impossible by the D?

            And, by consequence, does this make reading the D alignment easier for the QB?

            I'm wondering if this was part of Meyer's (or someone else's) intentions in implementing their system?
            Now that the Broncos have established Double/Triple Option from direct snap/shotgun formations, the opposing D disregards the possibility of Option at their peril.

            When most NFL defenses see most NFL offenses in shotgun, they are in pass rush, disguised coverage mode. Against the Broncos, their front seven must play assignments (Who has give, keep, pitch?) and the secondary is limited to basic coverages (e.g., cover 1, 2, 3). This exposes the coverages, which are fairly easy to read (e.g., MOFC=middle of the field closed with a FS, MOFO=middle of the field open/cover 2, man up cover 0/blitz, etc.).

            Therefore, it is easier for the QB, but the D doesn't know if it's pass or run. PAP from Option action accounted for a TD pass against the Vikings who were playing eight in the box expecting Option which the Broncos only ran four times. Once the D is called with the coverage set, they can't switch out. The Vikings put eight in the box challenging the Broncos to pass and they averaged 20 yards per pass attempt.

            Meanwhile, the Broncos ran from I formations 17 times in the 2nd half on non-Option run plays for about 100 yards and a TD. This leads me to suspect that defenses deployed to defend Option are not only exposed to pass plays, but are also exposed to non-Option run plays. The Broncos' O is a three-headed monster. Call it Cerberus.

            I have to believe that if the QB can't immediately recognize the defenders assigned to Option immediately, the box scouts will through the aid of EZ photos.
            Last edited by samparnell; 12-08-2011, 07:17 PM.
            "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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            • #7
              Thank you for the knowledge sir. I don't care what they say about you, you're a good guy!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                db32 mentioned this in a conversation we had on the thread titled "Spread Offense Viability". Since I'm interested in line play, I went back and studied the plays in the KC game, all 55 of them.

                Just in case anyone isn't familiar with influence, it's when an offensive lineman moves away from the play and takes a defender with him sometimes without even touching him. In some Wing-T playbooks it's called GOB/Guard Opposite Back, for example.

                KC's D was playing a straight 50. On one play the back side O-line from the Guard to the TE influenced and took both inside backers out of the play which went inside the play side tackle.

                Another interesting thing they did was have the tackle set up in pass pro while the rest of the OL was run blocking. It fooled Tamba Hali every time with him and either Clady or Franklin just standing there looking at each other while the play went away.

                I was thinking about influence and the Option game and the read the QB must make, when I realized that the line is taught not to block the read man. Actually, that is a form of influence, too. Influence is built into any Option attack in that it forces a defender to move himself.

                A point that has been made about the Broncos running Option is how it forces defenses to play disciplined assignments. The way current NFL defenders play, especially defensive ends and outside linebackers, is to go upfield. When facing a direct snap/shotgun formation their burst often takes them past ball depth. Such a move takes the defender out of position to make a play. Vince Lombardi's Power Sweep and attacking adjustments to it is a classic example of how to exploit defenders going upfield and taking themselves out of the play.

                Beyond utilizing the exceptional rushing ability of the running QB, the Broncos have accomplished turning direct snap/shotgun formations into a true balanced run/pass formation. Most NFL teams pass and occasionally run from direct snap/shotgun. When defending the Broncos, formation recognition is as useless as gaydar in Germany. IMO this is a quantum leap by NFL standards.
                The good old amoeba, aka "Timmy gonna put it on ya"
                [sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Interesting read Sam. CP inc!

                  Something it sounds like your numbers lead to, that I hadn't expected, is that the traditional I formation game is opening up and it must be because of the option threat.

                  I've mentioned before that I'm not crazy about running the option under from under center in the pro's. You've made a pretty convincing argument for it here. I'd seen from the option game can help McGahee and protect the qb angle, however not the option game helps the more conventional I formation runs angle.

                  Insightful, as always.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Potzer01 View Post
                    Interesting read Sam. CP inc!

                    Something it sounds like your numbers lead to, that I hadn't expected, is that the traditional I formation game is opening up and it must be because of the option threat.

                    I've mentioned before that I'm not crazy about running the option under from under center in the pro's. You've made a pretty convincing argument for it here. I'd seen from the option game can help McGahee and protect the qb angle, however not the option game helps the more conventional I formation runs angle.

                    Insightful, as always.
                    I think we've mentioned this before. Actually what they need to do is pass more from I Formations to set up Option. At Minnesota they only attempted two passes from I Formations, both Pro, and both were PAP; one completion for 42 yards.

                    Another possibility is to run Trap from the I. Zane Beadles and Chris Kuper are very good pullers. Trap works best with a quick FB. Mario Fannin would be a good possibility next season. They might be able to run Trap from the Power Pistol formation with McGahee in the FB spot. If the Broncos could run Trap, they could run Trap Option.

                    They have already run Counter Option from Power Pistol. They should try it from the I. Homer Smith thought Trap and Counter Option were two possibilities for attacking the Double Eagle Defense (aka Bear). The I Formation Option game is old school. Tom Osborne made a career out of Option I at Nebraska.

                    At Minnesota, the Broncos ran the ball on straight handoffs from the I seventeen times in the second half for over 100 yards and a TD. Thirteen of those runs were from Pro I which is as spread as the I gets while retaining a TE. That may be a glimpse of more pass attempts from the I. I'm sure the Bears are wondering, too.
                    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                    • #11
                      I wonder if Belichicks' familiarity with the Mullen/Meyer spread option will help the Pats defend against us? He probably has lots of film and he watched Tebow for 4 years.

                      I can't think past the Bears, but wanted to put my question in-thanks!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Portia11 View Post
                        I wonder if Belichicks' familiarity with the Mullen/Meyer spread option will help the Pats defend against us? He probably has lots of film and he watched Tebow for 4 years.

                        I can't think past the Bears, but wanted to put my question in-thanks!
                        Belichick is familiar with Spread Option and Single Wing. The real question after the Minnesota game is how much Option of any kind will the Broncos run? At Oakland 20 times out of 39 rushing attempts; At KC 20 times out of 55 rushing attempts; Against the Jets 12 times out of 34 rushing attempts; At San Diego 27 times out of 51 rushing attempts; At Minnesota 4 times out of 35 rushing attempts.

                        The threat of Option requires assignment defense. Assignment defense limits coverages. Simplified coverages expose the D to a deep passing attack.

                        Rex Ryan tried some Double Eagle/Bear fronts. I think if McCoy sees those again, he may work Option more to the perimeter.

                        Since the Oakland game, McCoy has shown a lot of different formations and plays in the run game, some of those only in glimpses. All of those will be considered by opponents who have scouts, video, computers, etc.

                        I have wondered about the glimpses of unbalanced line, Triple Option that were shown at Oakland and KC and not much lately. Will they reappear? Belichick wonders, too.

                        The last two games are especially baffling for DCs. The game at SD looked more like a Florida Gator game with direct snap/shotgun formations used 44 times out of the 69 plays with Option run 27 times. Then at Minnesota it looked like old school I Formation run to set up the pass.

                        I have a feeling that tendencies are being shown in order to be broken. The formations and plays that are available exceed what has been used. Let's see what happens against the Bears. McCoy will base his gameplan on the best way to attack the Bears' D. Do they overpursue? How have they been against run, pass?

                        Belichick will have a lot to consider after the Bears game. It is an unfolding story. If he only had one thing to worry about, like Spread Option that you mentioned, his solution would be successful. The passing game is opening up and the power rushing attack can't be ignored either. PAP is a big threat because of the run game. Belichick will try to give his defenders keys to read, but there are a lot of them.

                        The Broncos present complexity one component of which requires simplification in order to defend it, and that component is Option. It is the monkey wrench in the works. The Vikings prepared to stop Option and didn't see it.
                        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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