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Drew Litton on Elway, Manning & Tebow : Ouch!

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  • Start and succeed = what? Going 8-5 and winning a playoff game? That sounds like starting and succeeding to me, but hey, I'm a sucker for wins. I suppose I should be more excited by QBR.

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    • Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
      Start and succeed = what? Going 8-5 and winning a playoff game? That sounds like starting and succeeding to me, but hey, I'm a sucker for wins. I suppose I should be more excited by QBR.
      Start and succeed means being able to compete for a championship. right now he's nowhere near that.
      You Tell 'em Justice is coming. You tell 'em I'M coming!sigpic

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      • Nowhere near? We were 2 wins away from the Super Bowl. I think nowhere near might be a bit drastic. In Year One, with a totally overwhelmed roster from top to bottom, he got closer than a lot of successful NFL QBs ever have. The list of QBs that haven't been beyond the second round of the postseason would probably surprise you.

        I also think that's an absolutely absurd criteria for measuring success. Two of 32 quarterbacks reach the Super Bowl each year, with heavy overlap. Dan Marino, who many still regard as the best QB of all time, never won a championship. Trent Dilfer has won as many, or more, Super Bowls than some of the greatest QBs of all time.

        Most importantly, I don't care what QB you plug into our 2011 roster -- they weren't winning a Super Bowl. Our WRs are young and raw, our TEs are non-factors, our RB is 30 and was dealing with a variety of injuries all season, and our OLine is the second youngest in the NFL. Our defense, for all their improvement, still ranked amongst the worst in the NFL -- 24th in points allowed, 28th in turnovers forced. We have a LOT of flaws.

        If you seriously think this roster would've gone further than the second round of the postseason with a different, non-Hall of Fame QB, you're kidding yourself.

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        • Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
          Nowhere near? We were 2 wins away from the Super Bowl. I think nowhere near might be a bit drastic. In Year One, with a totally overwhelmed roster from top to bottom, he got closer than a lot of successful NFL QBs ever have. The list of QBs that haven't been beyond the second round of the postseason would probably surprise you.

          I also think that's an absolutely absurd criteria for measuring success. Two of 32 quarterbacks reach the Super Bowl each year, with heavy overlap. Dan Marino, who many still regard as the best QB of all time, never won a championship. Trent Dilfer has won as many, or more, Super Bowls than some of the greatest QBs of all time.

          Most importantly, I don't care what QB you plug into our 2011 roster -- they weren't winning a Super Bowl. Our WRs are young and raw, our TEs are non-factors, our RB is 30 and was dealing with a variety of injuries all season, and our OLine is the second youngest in the NFL. Our defense, for all their improvement, still ranked amongst the worst in the NFL -- 24th in points allowed, 28th in turnovers forced. We have a LOT of flaws.

          If you seriously think this roster would've gone further than the second round of the postseason with a different, non-Hall of Fame QB, you're kidding yourself.
          The odds of that happening again are very very slim.
          sigpic

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          • That's fine -- the odds of it happening the first time were very, very slim. And to go even further, regardless of how good a team is, the odds are always against you winning a Super Bowl.

            The difference between the sides is that while some say "the odds are against him", others say "they always have been, but he just keeps succeeding". In my opinion, both sides are correct. Again, in my opinion, we should at least allow him to fall on his face before treating him like he already has. The guy just went 8-5 and won a playoff game in his first season as a full-time starter. Maybe it was a fluke and he really sucks, but at least let it flake out before you call the guy a failure.

            PS: this is independent of the Manning chase, I'm not saying Tebow deserves to have us forego Manning. He doesn't. I just think he deserves the respect of not being deemed a failure until he actually fails.

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            • Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
              That's fine -- the odds of it happening the first time were very, very slim. And to go even further, regardless of how good a team is, the odds are always against you winning a Super Bowl.

              The difference between the sides is that while some say "the odds are against him", others say "they always have been, but he just keeps succeeding". In my opinion, both sides are correct. Again, in my opinion, we should at least allow him to fall on his face before treating him like he already has. The guy just went 8-5 and won a playoff game in his first season as a full-time starter. Maybe it was a fluke and he really sucks, but at least let it flake out before you call the guy a failure.

              PS: this is independent of the Manning chase, I'm not saying Tebow deserves to have us forego Manning. He doesn't. I just think he deserves the respect of not being deemed a failure until he actually fails.
              This what I really think:

              Option 1. I hope manning is signed, they trade Tebow and look for a new QB in the draft, this year or next year.

              Option 2. I have no illusions about Manning doing very much here in Denver so I wouldn't care if he comes here or not. The only reason I want him here is get Tebow traded. If he doesn't come then I hope tebow does start so we can see once and for all if he can or can not play well at the QB position. The sooner this is determined the better off everyone will be.

              Option 3: The worst case scenario, imo. They sign manning and keep Tebow both. I don't like this plan because that means we won't know if Tebow can develop into a good QB until manning leaves. That might also mean they would have to extend Tebow's contract to find out. If Tebow still can not play by then then we are even more time away from having a true star at the position.
              sigpic

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              • Originally posted by rogue719 View Post
                You think he played "pretty well?" He took us to scores on the first drive of the game and then three and outs the remainder of the first half. Then a scoring drive on the first drive of the second half and sucked the remainder of the game with four turnovers, two of them returned for touchdowns.



                Thank you, this is the entire point. Timmy is at best a mediocre QB with potential at this point. And the real issue is, NOBODY knows what his ceiling is, but we can extrapolate that if he doesn't learn to be an NFL quality passer, he won't have much more ceiling than he did last year.

                For that reason, I have no problem, if we can get Manning, to getting rid of Timmy if he doesn't want to ride the pine and learn to be the kind of QB that can start and succeed in the NFL.
                Those scoring drives were the first two drives that he threw passes in. The 3 and outs were due to 9 straight handoffs. That's why there was a 17 point swing in the first half without Tebow touching the ball.

                If you look at the gameday threads, McCoy was about to be lynched after that game. But Tebow bailed him out for like the 9th straight game: not by coming up with another Eli Manning moment but by doing what he should have been doing all year and turning it over.
                It's what Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Sam Bradford etc. have been doing their whole career so far and it's expected out of young QB's. That part of Tebow's game is often overlooked and is partially responsible for holding his other stats back.

                You can say that 9 straight runs is a reflection of Tebow sucking but that's a huge assumption. NOBODY, at least in post-1950's NFL calls 9 straight runs, and there have been worse QB's with better running games

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                • LoL,,, look how he drew Elway
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                  • Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
                    Nowhere near? We were 2 wins away from the Super Bowl. I think nowhere near might be a bit drastic. In Year One, with a totally overwhelmed roster from top to bottom, he got closer than a lot of successful NFL QBs ever have. The list of QBs that haven't been beyond the second round of the postseason would probably surprise you.

                    I also think that's an absolutely absurd criteria for measuring success. Two of 32 quarterbacks reach the Super Bowl each year, with heavy overlap. Dan Marino, who many still regard as the best QB of all time, never won a championship. Trent Dilfer has won as many, or more, Super Bowls than some of the greatest QBs of all time.

                    Most importantly, I don't care what QB you plug into our 2011 roster -- they weren't winning a Super Bowl. Our WRs are young and raw, our TEs are non-factors, our RB is 30 and was dealing with a variety of injuries all season, and our OLine is the second youngest in the NFL. Our defense, for all their improvement, still ranked amongst the worst in the NFL -- 24th in points allowed, 28th in turnovers forced. We have a LOT of flaws.

                    If you seriously think this roster would've gone further than the second round of the postseason with a different, non-Hall of Fame QB, you're kidding yourself.
                    We play in a very weak division and even so backed into the playoffs after Tebow screwed the pooch against Buffalo. We got lucky to face a Pittsburgh team with an offense nearly as badly hobbled as our own and every good team we played put over 40 points on us and Tebow couldn't keep us anywhere close to competing. Yes, we need to improve our defense dramatically, but we also need a QB that is enough of a passing threat that teams can't cheat up on the line to stop the run and dare him to beat them with his arm. He can't do that yet, so no, we are nowhere near that.

                    Let's be serious. This QB isn't anywhere close to elite yet.
                    You Tell 'em Justice is coming. You tell 'em I'M coming!sigpic

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                    • Well Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Peyton Manning weren't anywhere close to elite yet either. Put Tebow on the 01 Pats and the 05 Steelers and those teams very likely still win it all. Now, those QB's did become elite 2-3 years after those SB's. It remains to be seen on Tebow. Which is why we probably won't have our answer till 2015 at the earliest. We're not talking about running backs or linebackers here.

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