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Drew Litton on Elway, Manning & Tebow : Ouch!

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  • itswutz4dinna
    replied
    Well Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Peyton Manning weren't anywhere close to elite yet either. Put Tebow on the 01 Pats and the 05 Steelers and those teams very likely still win it all. Now, those QB's did become elite 2-3 years after those SB's. It remains to be seen on Tebow. Which is why we probably won't have our answer till 2015 at the earliest. We're not talking about running backs or linebackers here.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue719
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
    Nowhere near? We were 2 wins away from the Super Bowl. I think nowhere near might be a bit drastic. In Year One, with a totally overwhelmed roster from top to bottom, he got closer than a lot of successful NFL QBs ever have. The list of QBs that haven't been beyond the second round of the postseason would probably surprise you.

    I also think that's an absolutely absurd criteria for measuring success. Two of 32 quarterbacks reach the Super Bowl each year, with heavy overlap. Dan Marino, who many still regard as the best QB of all time, never won a championship. Trent Dilfer has won as many, or more, Super Bowls than some of the greatest QBs of all time.

    Most importantly, I don't care what QB you plug into our 2011 roster -- they weren't winning a Super Bowl. Our WRs are young and raw, our TEs are non-factors, our RB is 30 and was dealing with a variety of injuries all season, and our OLine is the second youngest in the NFL. Our defense, for all their improvement, still ranked amongst the worst in the NFL -- 24th in points allowed, 28th in turnovers forced. We have a LOT of flaws.

    If you seriously think this roster would've gone further than the second round of the postseason with a different, non-Hall of Fame QB, you're kidding yourself.
    We play in a very weak division and even so backed into the playoffs after Tebow screwed the pooch against Buffalo. We got lucky to face a Pittsburgh team with an offense nearly as badly hobbled as our own and every good team we played put over 40 points on us and Tebow couldn't keep us anywhere close to competing. Yes, we need to improve our defense dramatically, but we also need a QB that is enough of a passing threat that teams can't cheat up on the line to stop the run and dare him to beat them with his arm. He can't do that yet, so no, we are nowhere near that.

    Let's be serious. This QB isn't anywhere close to elite yet.

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  • Giddy'up
    replied
    LoL,,, look how he drew Elway

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  • itswutz4dinna
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue719 View Post
    You think he played "pretty well?" He took us to scores on the first drive of the game and then three and outs the remainder of the first half. Then a scoring drive on the first drive of the second half and sucked the remainder of the game with four turnovers, two of them returned for touchdowns.



    Thank you, this is the entire point. Timmy is at best a mediocre QB with potential at this point. And the real issue is, NOBODY knows what his ceiling is, but we can extrapolate that if he doesn't learn to be an NFL quality passer, he won't have much more ceiling than he did last year.

    For that reason, I have no problem, if we can get Manning, to getting rid of Timmy if he doesn't want to ride the pine and learn to be the kind of QB that can start and succeed in the NFL.
    Those scoring drives were the first two drives that he threw passes in. The 3 and outs were due to 9 straight handoffs. That's why there was a 17 point swing in the first half without Tebow touching the ball.

    If you look at the gameday threads, McCoy was about to be lynched after that game. But Tebow bailed him out for like the 9th straight game: not by coming up with another Eli Manning moment but by doing what he should have been doing all year and turning it over.
    It's what Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Sam Bradford etc. have been doing their whole career so far and it's expected out of young QB's. That part of Tebow's game is often overlooked and is partially responsible for holding his other stats back.

    You can say that 9 straight runs is a reflection of Tebow sucking but that's a huge assumption. NOBODY, at least in post-1950's NFL calls 9 straight runs, and there have been worse QB's with better running games

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  • broncos SB2010
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
    That's fine -- the odds of it happening the first time were very, very slim. And to go even further, regardless of how good a team is, the odds are always against you winning a Super Bowl.

    The difference between the sides is that while some say "the odds are against him", others say "they always have been, but he just keeps succeeding". In my opinion, both sides are correct. Again, in my opinion, we should at least allow him to fall on his face before treating him like he already has. The guy just went 8-5 and won a playoff game in his first season as a full-time starter. Maybe it was a fluke and he really sucks, but at least let it flake out before you call the guy a failure.

    PS: this is independent of the Manning chase, I'm not saying Tebow deserves to have us forego Manning. He doesn't. I just think he deserves the respect of not being deemed a failure until he actually fails.
    This what I really think:

    Option 1. I hope manning is signed, they trade Tebow and look for a new QB in the draft, this year or next year.

    Option 2. I have no illusions about Manning doing very much here in Denver so I wouldn't care if he comes here or not. The only reason I want him here is get Tebow traded. If he doesn't come then I hope tebow does start so we can see once and for all if he can or can not play well at the QB position. The sooner this is determined the better off everyone will be.

    Option 3: The worst case scenario, imo. They sign manning and keep Tebow both. I don't like this plan because that means we won't know if Tebow can develop into a good QB until manning leaves. That might also mean they would have to extend Tebow's contract to find out. If Tebow still can not play by then then we are even more time away from having a true star at the position.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoDonko
    replied
    That's fine -- the odds of it happening the first time were very, very slim. And to go even further, regardless of how good a team is, the odds are always against you winning a Super Bowl.

    The difference between the sides is that while some say "the odds are against him", others say "they always have been, but he just keeps succeeding". In my opinion, both sides are correct. Again, in my opinion, we should at least allow him to fall on his face before treating him like he already has. The guy just went 8-5 and won a playoff game in his first season as a full-time starter. Maybe it was a fluke and he really sucks, but at least let it flake out before you call the guy a failure.

    PS: this is independent of the Manning chase, I'm not saying Tebow deserves to have us forego Manning. He doesn't. I just think he deserves the respect of not being deemed a failure until he actually fails.

    Leave a comment:


  • broncos SB2010
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
    Nowhere near? We were 2 wins away from the Super Bowl. I think nowhere near might be a bit drastic. In Year One, with a totally overwhelmed roster from top to bottom, he got closer than a lot of successful NFL QBs ever have. The list of QBs that haven't been beyond the second round of the postseason would probably surprise you.

    I also think that's an absolutely absurd criteria for measuring success. Two of 32 quarterbacks reach the Super Bowl each year, with heavy overlap. Dan Marino, who many still regard as the best QB of all time, never won a championship. Trent Dilfer has won as many, or more, Super Bowls than some of the greatest QBs of all time.

    Most importantly, I don't care what QB you plug into our 2011 roster -- they weren't winning a Super Bowl. Our WRs are young and raw, our TEs are non-factors, our RB is 30 and was dealing with a variety of injuries all season, and our OLine is the second youngest in the NFL. Our defense, for all their improvement, still ranked amongst the worst in the NFL -- 24th in points allowed, 28th in turnovers forced. We have a LOT of flaws.

    If you seriously think this roster would've gone further than the second round of the postseason with a different, non-Hall of Fame QB, you're kidding yourself.
    The odds of that happening again are very very slim.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoDonko
    replied
    Nowhere near? We were 2 wins away from the Super Bowl. I think nowhere near might be a bit drastic. In Year One, with a totally overwhelmed roster from top to bottom, he got closer than a lot of successful NFL QBs ever have. The list of QBs that haven't been beyond the second round of the postseason would probably surprise you.

    I also think that's an absolutely absurd criteria for measuring success. Two of 32 quarterbacks reach the Super Bowl each year, with heavy overlap. Dan Marino, who many still regard as the best QB of all time, never won a championship. Trent Dilfer has won as many, or more, Super Bowls than some of the greatest QBs of all time.

    Most importantly, I don't care what QB you plug into our 2011 roster -- they weren't winning a Super Bowl. Our WRs are young and raw, our TEs are non-factors, our RB is 30 and was dealing with a variety of injuries all season, and our OLine is the second youngest in the NFL. Our defense, for all their improvement, still ranked amongst the worst in the NFL -- 24th in points allowed, 28th in turnovers forced. We have a LOT of flaws.

    If you seriously think this roster would've gone further than the second round of the postseason with a different, non-Hall of Fame QB, you're kidding yourself.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue719
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
    Start and succeed = what? Going 8-5 and winning a playoff game? That sounds like starting and succeeding to me, but hey, I'm a sucker for wins. I suppose I should be more excited by QBR.
    Start and succeed means being able to compete for a championship. right now he's nowhere near that.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoDonko
    replied
    Start and succeed = what? Going 8-5 and winning a playoff game? That sounds like starting and succeeding to me, but hey, I'm a sucker for wins. I suppose I should be more excited by QBR.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue719
    replied
    Originally posted by itswutz4dinna View Post
    I actually think Tebow played pretty well that game. Every QB has mistakes at some point. Tebow's were mostly in garbage time. I saw Cam Newton have a similar performance, except with the game on the line. Again, this isn't baseball.
    You think he played "pretty well?" He took us to scores on the first drive of the game and then three and outs the remainder of the first half. Then a scoring drive on the first drive of the second half and sucked the remainder of the game with four turnovers, two of them returned for touchdowns.

    Do I think Tebow is a good QB right now? No, he's decent to kinda bad.
    Thank you, this is the entire point. Timmy is at best a mediocre QB with potential at this point. And the real issue is, NOBODY knows what his ceiling is, but we can extrapolate that if he doesn't learn to be an NFL quality passer, he won't have much more ceiling than he did last year.

    For that reason, I have no problem, if we can get Manning, to getting rid of Timmy if he doesn't want to ride the pine and learn to be the kind of QB that can start and succeed in the NFL.

    Leave a comment:


  • catsigater
    replied
    Originally posted by neckbeard View Post
    They couldn't convince the fans to allow Orton or Quinn to start over Tebow.
    Orton had all the opportunity in the world and he sucked. No one to blame but Orton for Orton's failure. When he finally lands somewhere else, you'll have another sandbox to cry in.

    Leave a comment:


  • jcdavey
    replied
    Originally posted by broncolee View Post
    That made me laugh.

    If Manning were to sign and Tim were to stay, I think Tim would benefit from the experience.:thumb:
    i don't think there's a qb in the nfl who wouldn't benefit from peyton's knowledge

    it's not like he'd make anyone dumber, not even brady

    that said , the jury's out on if peyton will ever even be good again, he may be worse than tebow post-injury.

    but peyton is a smart guy at the least.....maybe make him a qb coach if all else fails.....

    Leave a comment:


  • broncolee
    replied
    Originally posted by nyuk nyuk View Post
    That made me laugh.

    If Manning were to sign and Tim were to stay, I think Tim would benefit from the experience.:thumb:

    Leave a comment:


  • broncos SB2010
    replied
    Originally posted by catsigater View Post
    Fair enough. Do you think the Cowboys have all their faith in Romo? There are probably only a handful of teams that would say that.

    But here's where our exchange started...



    My by now extremely belabored point was they weren't looking for a replacement. Someone to challenge him, sure, that's public knowledge.

    Then Peyton became available.

    I think you and I both agree the Broncos aren't at all confident Tebow is the long-term answer. But they did feel like he had shown enough to be named the starter going into TC next year. (Which is exactly what he deserved by his performance, no more and no less.)

    You seem to think they were still looking to replace him. I see no evidence of that, and if you're going to say, "Look, they're going after Peyton, so they were definitely looking to replace him," my answer is still the same...

    "Hey, it's Peyton Manning."
    Tebow was only named the starter since he was the only one on the team besides Weber. Who else would be named the starter? Weber?

    Leave a comment:

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