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  • #61
    Originally posted by Lomax View Post
    Neither did Marino, so how does that make him better?
    Because he has better numbers and less talent around him than Brady did. Ask any fan who's been watching 25+ years of football who'd they rather have & the majority would say Marino
    "Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion." Jimmy Ruffin

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    • #62
      Originally posted by HUMCALC View Post
      Because he has better numbers and less talent around him than Brady did. Ask any fan who's been watching 25+ years of football who'd they rather have & the majority would say Marino
      He has better numbers? Brady averages 96.4 passer rating to Marino's passer rating of 86.4, he's thrown for more yards in a season than Marino has, and holds the record for TDs in a season. He's on pace to beat Marino's TD total. Talent you can argue, but you can't argue numbers.

      And again, talent is only a relevant differentiator if you're comparing similar accomplishments. Like Elway and Montana. When one guy has 3 more SB titles and is also on pace to have more pro bowls, MVPs, and TDs, AND has a higher career passer rating, you can't really argue that he isn't as good, even if he has had more talent. You can argue that the gap isn't as big as the accomplishments suggest, but you can't flip the other way.
      Last edited by Lomax; 07-08-2012, 11:10 AM.
      "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Lomax View Post
        He has better numbers? Brady averages 96.4 passer rating to Marino's passer rating of 86.4, he's thrown for more yards in a season than Marino has, and holds the record for TDs in a season. He's on pace to beat Marino's TD total. Talent you can argue, but you can't argue numbers.

        And again, talent is only a relevant differentiator if you're comparing similar accomplishments. Like Elway and Montana. When one guy has 3 more SB titles and is also on pace to have more pro bowls, MVPs, and TDs, AND has a higher career passer rating, you can't really argue that he isn't as good, even if he has had more talent. You can argue that the gap isn't as big as the accomplishments suggest, but you can't flip the other way.
        Right now Marino has more than doubled Brady in TDs and in yards. Brady=203 TDs, Marino=420. Brady=26,000 yards, Marino-=61,000. It's not even close

        Montana=40,000 yards, Elway=50,000 yards (Without a HOF WR) Montana=273 TDs, Elway=300 TDs
        "Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion." Jimmy Ruffin

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        • #64
          Originally posted by HUMCALC View Post
          Right now Marino has more than doubled Brady in TDs and in yards. Brady=203 TDs, Marino=420. Brady=26,000 yards, Marino-=61,000. It's not even close

          Montana=40,000 yards, Elway=50,000 yards (Without a HOF WR) Montana=273 TDs, Elway=300 TDs
          Your stats are wrong.

          Brady's got 300 TDs. On pace for 425 if he plays as long as Marino.
          Brady has 40,000 yards. On pace for 56,450.

          Plus his passer rating is 10 points better over his career. Brady's numbers are better.
          "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

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          • #65
            Originally posted by HUMCALC View Post
            Right now Marino has more than doubled Brady in TDs and in yards. Brady=203 TDs, Marino=420. Brady=26,000 yards, Marino-=61,000. It's not even close

            Montana=40,000 yards, Elway=50,000 yards (Without a HOF WR) Montana=273 TDs, Elway=300 TDs

            What are you talking about?

            Here is thier stats at 34 years old:

            Tom Brady, 34 years old: 300 TD's, 40,000 passing yards, 124 wins, 3 SB wins out of 5 appearances.
            Dan Marino, 34 years old: 352 TD's 49,000 passing yards, 116 wins, 0 SB wins out of 1 appearance.
            Joe Montana, 34 years old: 242 TD's, 35,000 passing yards, 100 wins, 4 SB wins out of 4 appearances.
            John Elway, 34 years old: 199 TD's, 38,000 passing yards, 81 wins, 0 SB wins out of 3 appearances.

            And then here is our current QB:

            Peyton Manning, 34 years old: 399 TD's, 55,000 passing yards, 141 wins, 1 SB win out of 2 appearances.


            So all good QB's, but I've always said that Brady is the best QB in the game and Manning is the 2nd best.

            You have Marino who had good weapons, and put up good stats, but never won a SB.
            You have Montana who had legit weapons, managed the game well, was clutch, and won SB's and SB MVP's.
            You have Elway who didn't have much talent, put up decent numbers, went to a lot of SB's.
            You have Brady who didn't have much weapons early on in his career. Won a SB in his 1st season as a starter, won a bunch of SB's early. Still manages to get his team to the SB, and now puts up great stats as well as a lot of wins each year.

            And you have Manning who puts up great numbers every year, has been to a couple SB's, and without him, his team goes 2-14.


            So you guys can all take your pick. But when its all said and done, I believe Brady will be the best of all time, and Manning will be right there with him.

            Brady consistantly has his team deep in the playoffs every year. And he still has about 5 years or so left in him. So when its done, his numbers could look something like:

            450 TD's, 63,000 passing yards, 170 wins, and possibly 4 or 5 SB wins out of 6 or 7 appearances.

            And all those numbers are better than Marinos as well. So thats just my take on the subject. Marino was a good QB, but Brady is and will go down as the better QB and 1 of the best of all time.
            :salute: :goz: :salute:

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Hadez View Post
              Did Montana even win a playoff game without Rice and Craig or his pretty good offensive line or HoF Coach?

              Elway went to three Super Bowls without TD, Sharpe, Zim and the other great players he won the Super Bowl with.

              Like I pointed out previously Elway is the ONLY qb who essentially took two different teams to a Super Bowl. I think Atwater is the only player that went to the three earlier Super Bowl (49er) that always went to one of the two later ones(GB). Were any of the coaches the same except Shanahan? The logo may have been the same but the coaches and players were completely different.
              That is a good point about Elway. He didn't only take two different Bronco teams to the Super Bowl, but he took teams to the Super Bowl with two different offensive styles(Dallas system and a form of WCO, not the actual WCO that Walsh ran because Denver had a better running game and a stronger-armed QB than Walsh ever had in SF).

              Brady and Montana only took teams with one scheme to a Super Bowl. And, that scheme was tailored to their strengths. That is why the above comment about Brady being the best because of stats is total bunk. Stats don't tell the whole story.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by JBBronco1 View Post
                That is a good point about Elway. He didn't only take two different Bronco teams to the Super Bowl, but he took teams to the Super Bowl with two different offensive styles(Dallas system and a form of WCO, not the actual WCO that Walsh ran because Denver had a better running game and a stronger-armed QB than Walsh ever had in SF).

                Brady and Montana only took teams with one scheme to a Super Bowl. And, that scheme was tailored to their strengths. That is why the above comment about Brady being the best because of stats is total bunk. Stats don't tell the whole story.
                I agree

                Actually if we went off of stats then Marino is better then Brady imo. Marino played in a era when OTs had to play closer to the LoS which means they got eaten up more by speed rushers, he played when DBs were allowed allot more contact on WRs and when QBs were not given near the protection they are now yet he still had better stats then Brady at the same age.

                When talking just stats stuff like Passing Yards and TDs are worth more then wins and Super Bowls. It takes defenses to get those and the QB does not play defense.

                I think GREATNESS is some combo of it all

                Also it is interesting to note that since Spygate the Pats have not won a single Super Bowl
                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                • #68
                  I was wrong about Brady's #s, but he plays in an era where QBs can't get sneezed on without getting a penalty, whereas Marino got teed off on a regular basis
                  "Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion." Jimmy Ruffin

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                  • #69
                    IMO this is a debate where there is no right or wrong answer. With that said, I'm right But I feel that everyone has thier own opinion. I'm only 24, so I saw briefly the tail end of Marino and Elways careers. Didn't get to witness Montana. And Brady and Manning are the 2 who I have watched since thier very 1st snap. I even saw Brady play live vs Griese back in 01. I think it was like Bradys 4th career start or something. Back before anyone even really knew about him. So its been fun to watch him play his whole career. I'm not one for stats either, and I cant just look at someones stats and say they are the best, because like some said, they are misleading. But another QB that I never really watched was Jim Kelly. I did check out his stats, and he had some damn good numbers. If he would have won 2 or 3 of those SB's he played in, he might get talked about as 1 of the greatest of all time.

                    Another QB that won 4 SB's, that no one talks about is Bradshaw. But yea, Its hard for me to give a fair judging on those other QB's that I didn't get to watch for thier whole career. So thats why everyone has thier own opinions I believe. Everyone grew up in a different Era.
                    :salute: :goz: :salute:

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by HUMCALC View Post
                      I don't know if this thread belongs here or not, but here I go.

                      How do you define who belongs among the greatest QBs of all time? WE ALL AGREE that ELWAY is the GOAT, but how do you define the rest?

                      Is it stats? If that's the case, then Brett Favre's up there.
                      Is it rings? If that's the case, then Bradshaw and Montana are up there.

                      So, how do YOU personally judge the greats?
                      I dont agree that Elway is the GOAT. top 10 for sure but not GOAT. GOAT would probably be Brady at this point. The QB position has changed but the fact is it is a THROWING position and Elway has very good stats, they are quickly being passed by several of today's QB's. So what goes in to being the GOAT as a QB. Easy

                      Attempts: Speaks to longevity and ability to stay the #1 QB
                      Completion %: A key measurement for the long term success of a QB
                      TD: Clearly Important
                      INT: the fewer the better
                      QB: Rating .. puts it all together.
                      Wins: I know the QB cant win games all by themselves but the NFL assigns ONLY QB's this stat.
                      SB Wins: If you dont win one you can be the GOAT.

                      So if you put all those together and figure out where Elways stands against his competition he is clearly a HOF'er and a top 10 QB but no way is he the goat.
                      Family, country, rugby, football

                      I posted in the epic Peyton's NeckBones thread and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt!

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by HUMCALC View Post
                        Because he has better numbers and less talent around him than Brady did. Ask any fan who's been watching 25+ years of football who'd they rather have & the majority would say Marino
                        Not me. I would take Brady every day of the week and 2x on Sundays. Marino was a selfish ass that cared more about numbers than winning and Brady only wants to win.
                        Family, country, rugby, football

                        I posted in the epic Peyton's NeckBones thread and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt!

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Oilersfan34 View Post
                          Not me. I would take Brady every day of the week and 2x on Sundays. Marino was a selfish ass that cared more about numbers than winning and Brady only wants to win.
                          Where do you get that? Marino wanted to win, and he was irate when they lost
                          "Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion." Jimmy Ruffin

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by HUMCALC View Post
                            Where do you get that? Marino wanted to win, and he was irate when they lost
                            my uncle lives in miami and is a huge Fins fan...i'm talking psycho. and he heard a lot of stuff about how Marino treated his WR and how a lot of what he yelled at them was bout how it was hurting him. He was VERY interested in NUMBERS.
                            Family, country, rugby, football

                            I posted in the epic Peyton's NeckBones thread and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt!

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Oilersfan34 View Post
                              my uncle lives in miami and is a huge Fins fan...i'm talking psycho. and he heard a lot of stuff about how Marino treated his WR and how a lot of what he yelled at them was bout how it was hurting him. He was VERY interested in NUMBERS.
                              Peyton does the exact same thing
                              "Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion." Jimmy Ruffin

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Oilersfan34 View Post
                                Not me. I would take Brady every day of the week and 2x on Sundays. Marino was a selfish ass that cared more about numbers than winning and Brady only wants to win.
                                Oh, yeah, like Brady is classy, and not selfish. That is crap. I saw him getting in a shouting match with his coach last year after he threw an INT. That was a terrible pass. Just shut up.

                                Brady does good when everything is pristine and easy, but when things go wrong, he cries like a baby.

                                Brady as best ever? Give me a break. I would take Elway every time.

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