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  • Tempering Manning Expectations

    As a long time Peyton, Colts and, now Denver fan for, at least until Peyton retires, there are some things people who didn't follow the Colts should know before expecting a 14-2 season.

    Most importantly, Peyton's system in Indianapolis was a nightmare to learn. To put it simply, it's not a simple system. I've done very little digging around but Reggie Wayne has been quoted saying it took him 3 or 4 years to completely master everything from the playbook to the audible language. If you look at his stats, Wayne didn't top 1,000 yards until his 4th season. Dallas Clark didn't break out until his 5th season, Pierre Garcon's numbers in his 3rd year were similar to Wayne's third: 67 catches, 784 yards and 6 touchdowns. The only two exceptions were Marvin Harrison, who caught 115 passes for over 1600 yards in Manning's second season but Harrison's 4th, and Austin Collie, who had 60 receptions in his rookie season and was on pace for over 100 catches, 100 yards and ~14 TDs in his second season before his concussions, but he played in the slot.

    I can't say for sure what this means for Broncos 2012 as the starting receivers are athletically gifted veterans, not rookies but it is still their first year with Peyton. Harrison and Collie had success early with Peyton largely because of their route-running ability. It seems like ages ago and Wayne is much different now but Wayne came into the league with a 4.45 40 and 36" vertical; he wasn't the technician he is today. How successful Decker, Thomas, Caldwell and Dreesen are is going to depend on how much they've improved their route running and their timing with Peyton.

    I don't know much about Manning's receivers not named Stokely or Tamme so I don't have a clear expectation for 2012 but take this for what you will and hopefully I'll be enlightened by some of your opinions on how Broncos' receivers will respond/have responded to the challenge.

  • #2
    Good post. Hopefully we hit the ground running, not a dig at Tebow but Manning has the ability to make those around him look great whereas Tebow doesn't, so hopefully he can do so this season
    Come On You Blues! GO BRONCOS!

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    • #3
      As I do understand the assumption about the complexity of Mannings way, the guys ain't no stupid Qb" he'll either adjust to his players because he wants to win and not impose his model (IMO). So my guess is yes the wr will have their work cut out for them and it wont be easy but at the same time I cannot believe Manning will not adjust to the learning curve of hiw offensive guys.
      Canadian Denver Bronco Fan #7

      Adopted Broncos:
      -:Mr. Decker:-

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      • #4
        Great post. I think we are all hanging on to the edge of our seats waiting for the season to start. Bringing in Manning pretty much changed the way the entire team will play football IMO. The offense will be unlike any we have seen from the Broncos for a long time. I know all the talk about the holes we have on defense, but I believe having Manning will bring out the best in our D and they will play at a whole new level. One reason for that being they won't be on the field as much and will be more rested. Another is the fact that Manning is such a great leader, and not only on the offensive side of the ball. On top of that we have JDR now. Everybody will play better. I know expecting a 14-2 season might be over the top, but then again it might not be. I think the team as a whole will be reinvigorated. If we go 14-2 it will not be solely because Peyton Manning came to town, it will be because the changes as a whole made this TEAM better. I can't for it it to start.

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        • #5
          That's a valid point, however, Manning has never had an athletically gifted receiver like Thomas.
          sigpic
          Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

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          • #6
            Good points, but are they more valid of Rookie learning curves or Manning's offense? Remember, the offense is McCoy's at least terminology wise, so the receivers have been in the system for a year now. I'd wager that Manning has already picked up the new terminology, so they really need to just focus on audibles, route running and timing.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BroncosFTW View Post
              Good points, but are they more valid of Rookie learning curves or Manning's offense? Remember, the offense is McCoy's at least terminology wise, so the receivers have been in the system for a year now. I'd wager that Manning has already picked up the new terminology, so they really need to just focus on audibles, route running and timing.
              This mirrors a lot of what I was going to say. A LOT of receivers struggle their first 2-3 seasons. There's probably a bit of that mixed in with the complexity of working with Manning.

              There will be some adjustments to be made and some growing pains.... but I think we'll still be good this season, and better as the year goes on.

              I think that next year is likely the year to watch out for though... I'm gonna enjoy this season first anyway.
              Thanks, Reid!
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              • #8
                What I think is really being overlooked is how much more simple Manning's reads will get on many early down plays, because I think (one for a balance purpose, and two to protect Manning a bit) the Broncos are still gna be fairly run-heavy unless a game starts to require we air it out ...

                I just think of it like (for most the time, aside from games where the other team gets ahead by a good amount) our offense will be what it was like with Orton (slightly more passing I'm sure) except obviously the big difference is the threat of Manning will help the run game n when we do pass we'll have Manning (with simpler reads helped by the run game) instead of Bozo...

                I think this offense could maybe be the most powerful BALANCED offense in the game ...unlike how most high power offenses throw it a ton, I think we could almost have an ideal like, dual threat, great offense ...

                Well ideally lol we'll see how it plays out ...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                  That's a valid point, however, Manning has never had a big receiver like Thomas.
                  Just paraphrasing your comment. Marvin Harrison was athletically gifted, could juke DBs out of their shoes, and sink his hips when he wanted to, running routes like no one else. No other WR came close to that kind of production year after year till Marvin got injured in 2007 and was never the same. The Colts system did not value big wideouts as much though Colts fans like me wished we would have taken fliers on guys like Garcon earlier to help out a Peyton in his prime.

                  DT's advantage will come against those playoff Ds that bring pressure and have the physical CBs that play one on one, the ones who would muscle out Marvin easily but DT is hard to muscle out. Most of the Ds however, Marvin would school during the season.

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                  • #10
                    DT is the most physically gifted WR Peyton has ever had.

                    Marvin was better obv, but based on pure god given talent DT is the best he's had to work with.

                    And i agree with LT that i think next year is the year we could go deep. Our schedule is absolutely brutal, but once you get in, who knows what can happen. Just get in the dance.

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                    • #11
                      Some of this repeats previous statements:

                      ~ Denver will run McCoy's not Indy's offense;

                      ~ Denver's commitment to a sophisticated rushing attack will provide Manning a sound foundation;

                      ~ If sufficient terminology is in place for Manning to call plays at LOS no-huddle, his ability to decipher defensive looks and call appropriate run or pass plays will already be a 100% improvement over 2011.
                      "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Spart View Post
                        As a long time Peyton, Colts and, now Denver fan for, at least until Peyton retires, there are some things people who didn't follow the Colts should know before expecting a 14-2 season.

                        Most importantly, Peyton's system in Indianapolis was a nightmare to learn. To put it simply, it's not a simple system. I've done very little digging around but Reggie Wayne has been quoted saying it took him 3 or 4 years to completely master everything from the playbook to the audible language. If you look at his stats, Wayne didn't top 1,000 yards until his 4th season. Dallas Clark didn't break out until his 5th season, Pierre Garcon's numbers in his 3rd year were similar to Wayne's third: 67 catches, 784 yards and 6 touchdowns. The only two exceptions were Marvin Harrison, who caught 115 passes for over 1600 yards in Manning's second season but Harrison's 4th, and Austin Collie, who had 60 receptions in his rookie season and was on pace for over 100 catches, 100 yards and ~14 TDs in his second season before his concussions, but he played in the slot.

                        I can't say for sure what this means for Broncos 2012 as the starting receivers are athletically gifted veterans, not rookies but it is still their first year with Peyton. Harrison and Collie had success early with Peyton largely because of their route-running ability. It seems like ages ago and Wayne is much different now but Wayne came into the league with a 4.45 40 and 36" vertical; he wasn't the technician he is today. How successful Decker, Thomas, Caldwell and Dreesen are is going to depend on how much they've improved their route running and their timing with Peyton.

                        I don't know much about Manning's receivers not named Stokely or Tamme so I don't have a clear expectation for 2012 but take this for what you will and hopefully I'll be enlightened by some of your opinions on how Broncos' receivers will respond/have responded to the challenge.
                        True, but I think no one really expects Peyton to rack up those pinball type numbers in his first year.

                        Here is the thing to remember: last year with Tebow, the Broncos had the absolute worst passing game in the league. Hands down. Timmy wasn't capable of throwing those quick timing passes that Peyton can and will throw, so mostly his receivers would simply run around with their hands up and hope that Timmy would see them open and throw them the ball.

                        Another thing that Peyton brings to the table that Tebow struggled with was reading the difference and being able to change the play at the LOS. While Peyton won't necessarily have the rapport built up with his offense in this first year that he will in the second, third and fourth (if he plays that long), he will still be able to be the field general, change the play and help keep the chains moving.

                        Both of things will be a welcome relief for Broncos fans who want to see a big improvement from last year.

                        I also think having a stronger defense and a running game will go a long way to help take some of the pressure of Peyton. Last year the Broncos made a sizable improvement in special teams, in defense and in their running offense. That enables the Broncos to bring more to the table to help Peyton have a balanced offense overall.
                        You Tell 'em Justice is coming. You tell 'em I'M coming!sigpic

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                        • #13
                          OP:
                          Point taken. Yet this is not Indianapolis' system. It is the new Denver system, probably on steroids to get the max from Peyton while we have him.
                          I suspect next year might be more complicated, but that does not make this year a wipeout. I'm anticipating a 10-6/11-5 season. That would be a huge improvement year over year.
                          Canadian Denver Bronco Fan Club #60

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                          • #14
                            Its the no huddle that they will have to learn. I dont expect them to be ready this year, but next year they have to be. Denver is building a different team than the Colts did, thank God because thats how Manning will win. I expect the D to be better and the offense to have a better running game than the Colts did. Manning makes everyone better.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Holger_Danske View Post
                              OP:
                              Point taken. Yet this is not Indianapolis' system. It is the new Denver system, probably on steroids to get the max from Peyton while we have him.
                              I suspect next year might be more complicated, but that does not make this year a wipeout. I'm anticipating a 10-6/11-5 season. That would be a huge improvement year over year.
                              Didnt read your post but should have. Kind of the ssame as mine.

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