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  • #16
    I have a question about our offensive line for the experts.

    Why is it we can either block for the running game and not pass protect or we can pass protect and not block for the run?

    Last year we had an awesome running game and the run blocking was great. That being said last year we could not protect Tebow in pass protection.

    This year with the same line we can pass protect and not run the ball. We had the same problem when Orton was QB we could not run the ball but pass protection was decent.

    I know the comparisons between Manning and Tebow but is the read option and having a mobile QB that much more hard to defend in the running game?

    Is Magoo not able to teach a conventional NFL line to run block when he has a pocket QB? Why could we run back in the Shanahan days no matter who we put in the back field. Why can we not get back to that style of run blocking with a pocket passer like Manning?

    If we could run at will and have Manning this offense would be deadly.

    Opinions, thoughts........
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    • #17
      When running the option, DL can not rush up field and have to keep gap responsibility while accounting for 2 running threats. But with Tebow at QB, he is a sight thrower. He is going to hold the ball longer looking for big plays while taking more sacks.

      With Manning this year he gets rid of the ball quickly being a huge difference from Tebow who made his OL look worse than they were. And we can run the ball, just not as well as last year because of what Tebow brought to the table. Also Hillman needs more touches.
      Denver Broncos GM
      Originally posted by Mosk
      Joey Bosa ~ Jason Spriggs ~ Darian Thompson ~ Nick Vannett ~ Paul Perkins ~ Dan Vitale

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      • #18
        Originally posted by THEdraftnik View Post
        When running the option, DL can not rush up field and have to keep gap responsibility while accounting for 2 running threats. But with Tebow at QB, he is a sight thrower. He is going to hold the ball longer looking for big plays while taking more sacks.

        With Manning this year he gets rid of the ball quickly being a huge difference from Tebow who made his OL look worse than they were. And we can run the ball, just not as well as last year because of what Tebow brought to the table. Also Hillman needs more touches.
        What I don't understand is we ran the ball against NO the same way we used to with Shanahan and ran it down their throats. Over 200 yards rushing and yet I have only seen us use this style of running once this year. We basically push everyone to one side and the runner ran to the backside against the direction the blocking was going.

        Why not use that style running every game or at least a few times in a game?
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        • #19
          The offense McCoy designed for Tebow to run included him in the rushing attack. When the guy who gets the ball from center is an integral part of the rushing attack, there are three ways to include him: Option from under center; Option from direct snap/shotgun; and, the Single/Double Wing rushing attack. When the guy who gets the ball from center is part of the rushing attack, the D must account for it.

          With Peyton Manning, the opposing D knows he isn't part of the rushing attack. Run plays will come from various forms of the I formation, Single Back sets and from gun. The rushing attack has been fine by those limitations. Different formations and blocking schemes have been used. The OL still uses pullers as well as zone blocking.

          The Panthers had success against the Redskins who use quite a bit of zone blocking. Look for less of that against the Panthers. Outside of zone blocking series, there are other ways of outnumbering the D at POA on run plays. One is with pullers. Another is with two back (i.e., FB/two back) formations. Another is with Wing.

          The Broncos have a great run blocking O-Line. Run blocking is more difficult than pass blocking because there are so many different kinds of blocks used for run plays. However, O-Linemen love to run block because they attack; pass blocking is more passive. The Broncos OL is great at pass blocking because they know PM will get them into the EZ.

          Dave Magazu is a great OL coach who can teach any kind of blocking. When PM is talking to the OL on the sideline, notice that Magazu is right next to him.
          Last edited by samparnell; 11-08-2012, 06:16 AM. Reason: typo
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          • #20
            Originally posted by one_bad_55 View Post
            What I don't understand is we ran the ball against NO the same way we used to with Shanahan and ran it down their throats. Over 200 yards rushing and yet I have only seen us use this style of running once this year. We basically push everyone to one side and the runner ran to the backside against the direction the blocking was going.

            Why not use that style running every game or at least a few times in a game?
            You're referring to zone block cut back type plays.

            We have run that in every game this year. We gashed the Aints because their run D is awful. For that play to work (and by work i mean to the point of at least a gain of 10 yards), Orlando Franklin must seal his man, and the runningback must make a play against the weak side backer.

            And Franklin does an excellent job on this very play a majority of the time.

            From what I've seen we rarely run towards Clady's side at least on cutbacks.
            Denver Broncos GM
            Originally posted by Mosk
            Joey Bosa ~ Jason Spriggs ~ Darian Thompson ~ Nick Vannett ~ Paul Perkins ~ Dan Vitale

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            • #21
              Originally posted by samparnell View Post
              The offense McCoy designed for Tebow to run included him in the rushing attack. When the guy who gets the ball from center is an integral part of the rushing attack, there are three ways to include him: Option from under center; Option form direct snap/shotgun; and, the Single/Double Wing rushing attack. When the guy who gets the ball from center is part of the rushing attack, the D must account for it.

              With Peyton Manning, the opposing D knows he isn't part of the rushing attack. Run plays will come from various forms of the I formation, Single Back sets and from gun. The rushing attack has been fine by those limitations. Different formations and blocking schemes have been used. The OL still uses pullers as well as zone blocking.

              The Panthers had success against the Redskins who use quite a bit of zone blocking. Look for less of that against the Panthers. Outside of zone blocking series, there are other ways of outnumbering the D at POA on run plays. One is with pullers. Another is with two back (i.e., FB/two back) formations. Another is with Wing.

              The Broncos have a great run blocking O-Line. Run blocking is more difficult than pass blocking because there are so many different kinds of blocks used for run plays. However, O-Linemen love to run block because they attack; pass blocking is more passive. The Broncos OL is great at pass blocking because they know PM will get them into the EZ.

              Dave Magazu is a great OL coach who can teach any kind of blocking. When PM is talking to the OL on the sideline, notice that Magazu is right next to him.
              Sam,

              I knew I could count on you. CP to ya............. Well just found out I need to spread the wealth a little. I will catch you when I can......:thumb:
              Last edited by one_bad_55; 11-07-2012, 07:52 PM.
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              • #22
                Originally posted by THEdraftnik View Post
                You're referring to zone block cut back type plays.

                We have run that in every game this year. We gashed the Aints because their run D is awful. For that play to work (and by work i mean to the point of at least a gain of 10 yards), Orlando Franklin must seal his man, and the runningback must make a play against the weak side backer.

                And Franklin does an excellent job on this very play a majority of the time.

                From what I've seen we rarely run towards Clady's side at least on cutbacks.
                The plays that I remember us gashing the Aints on were all to Clady's side of the ball were the blocking was going towards Franklins side and the backer would cut back to Clady's side.

                Both of Hillman's runs were to Clady's side and I think McGahee did the same thing all cutting back to the left side of the field.
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                2014 Adopted Bronco - DeMarcus Ware - 2015 Adopted Bronco - Von Miller

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                • #23
                  NFL.com has them ranked 2nd.

                  only 10 sacks allowed all season. Only the giants are better with 9.
                  Last edited by broncos SB2010; 11-07-2012, 08:42 PM.
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                  • #24
                    I think our O-Line is getting better and they have done an outstanding job protecting Manning. Maybe it is just the play calling that is running right at the middle of the field and getting stuffed. When we played Cinci, the Pats, etc and we tried to run the ball up the middle we had limited success.

                    I also think we are too predictable in the run game in that when we try and run it is almost always on first down and I think teams are recognizing this trend.

                    I would like to see some more to the out side using Hillman or even Holliday to see if they can get the edge.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by one_bad_55 View Post
                      I think our O-Line is getting better and they have done an outstanding job protecting Manning. Maybe it is just the play calling that is running right at the middle of the field and getting stuffed. When we played Cinci, the Pats, etc and we tried to run the ball up the middle we had limited success.

                      I also think we are too predictable in the run game in that when we try and run it is almost always on first down and I think teams are recognizing this trend.

                      I would like to see some more to the out side using Hillman or even Holliday to see if they can get the edge.
                      It depends on the opposing defense. Running outside on a 3-4/50 D is much more difficult than against a split front. The Bronco OL is quite capable of blocking Trap, but that play must go to a FB or a Back at FB depth. We have seen McGahee offset at FB depth in the backfield with Hillman a few times recently. It was mostly short yardage and McGahee just ran dive, but the possibility of Trap is there in that formation.

                      In some Single Back sets I have noticed McGahee a little closer to the ball than usual. Running Trap from Single Back could be done with the RB at FB depth and would be effective if the rest of the formation was spread.

                      I would like to see the Broncos run some Counter plays: Counter Gap/Ace/Deuce/Trey; GTO. McCoy has used a number of formations with a Wing. Running Off Tackle to a Wing from the I formation can easily outnumber the D at POA especially if run from an unbalanced line which McCoy has also used.

                      The rushing attack should be series-based and every run play needs a play action counterpart. The classic series-based attack was Lombardi's Power Sweep and seven ways to attack the defense's adjustments to it.
                      Last edited by samparnell; 11-08-2012, 11:42 AM.
                      "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by one_bad_55 View Post
                        I have a question about our offensive line for the experts.

                        Why is it we can either block for the running game and not pass protect or we can pass protect and not block for the run?

                        Last year we had an awesome running game and the run blocking was great. That being said last year we could not protect Tebow in pass protection.

                        This year with the same line we can pass protect and not run the ball. We had the same problem when Orton was QB we could not run the ball but pass protection was decent.

                        I know the comparisons between Manning and Tebow but is the read option and having a mobile QB that much more hard to defend in the running game?

                        Is Magoo not able to teach a conventional NFL line to run block when he has a pocket QB? Why could we run back in the Shanahan days no matter who we put in the back field. Why can we not get back to that style of run blocking with a pocket passer like Manning?

                        If we could run at will and have Manning this offense would be deadly.

                        Opinions, thoughts........
                        This is my opinion

                        You can look at it for yourself pretty easily but as i recall only Clady came out of college as a better pass blocker then run blocker. Beadles, Walton and Franklin all came out of college better run blockers then pass blockers if I remember right...can not think of Kuper and Ramirez honestly.

                        When McD took over imo the coaching of the OL took a major step down. Not until we got Mazu did Beadles, Walton and Franklin start to get quality coaching imo and even then that did not start until this year really as it is hard to coach a player up and get ready for games like what happened in 2011 without the offseason.

                        So the inconsistant play imo is a result of most of our OL needing to be coached up and not really getting the coaching they needed until this last offseason imo. Even Clady needed some quality coaching on power run blocking imo as he has been with a zone blocking coach his entire career before Mazu. McD was trying to use his OL coach as a power run blocking coach but he got his start learning from Alex Gibbs in Altanta....just another example of a McFail.

                        Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
                        NFL.com has them ranked 2nd.

                        only 10 sacks allowed all season. Only the giants are better with 9.
                        Sack wise every OL for Peyton has been ranked better then it actually is because he is maybe the best all time at not taking a sack. While I was researching info on Orton back in 2010 about taking sacks it just dumbfounded me at how good Peyton Manning is. He is almost twice as good as any other QB at not taking sacks when I did the research in 2010. I did my research on sacks taken per pass attempts. Brady is also good but he is still in the same group as the rest of the NFL QBs...leading it but still in the group. Peyton was on his own level.

                        Regardless I think our OL is pretty good and maybe even one of the best specially considering the injuries they have delt with so far.
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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