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  • #46
    Originally posted by Lomax View Post
    You just started following the Broncos. If a bunch of fans are saying we have trouble with TEs, you might want to at least acknowledge that it might be true.

    ....

    Either we have an elite defense or we don't. Not all defenses are susceptible to athletic TEs. The Bears could care less about how athletic opposing TEs are. They lock them down. We have had problems with TEs all year, whether it be Gronk, Hernandez, Olsen, Gonzalez, you name it. We had problems with them for quite a while, and no, they don't tear up everybody in the league. Just defenses that aren't good defending them.
    I didn't just start following the Broncos. I just started posting on the board several months ago. I follow every team in the NFL. I'm a fan of the game more than anything. While I have my favorite teams, I'm an information guy. I run a lot of said information for individuals (and organizations) that depend on said information to improve their "odds." I have to observe.

    The Bears may not care about elite TE's, as you say, but they also gave up a slew of 100+ yard rushers, 4.4 yards per carry (compared to Denver's 3.6), and have and 8-6 record. Now's the part where you come up with a bunch of excuses for them. Seems as though the areas Denver's D excels is means more to the bottom line than where the Bears are "elite." You will lose more games to not getting off of the field against the run than you will against TE's.

    Those TE's do run rampant all around the league, short of a few select defenses. There's a reason why 5 or 6 TE's reach 1000 yards and close to 10 TD's per season now. Offenses are taking advantage of the LEAGUE-WIDE inability to man-up TE's. Most LB's are too slow, and most Safeties or Corners are too small. Sometimes they can be chipped, or a defense can show blitzes that force the TE to stay on the line, but a lot of offenses will turn that around by having the TE bump the blitz and slip into an open spot for a big play.

    Fox isn't the only one who has trouble with them. That's showing that you ONLY watch the Denver Broncos.

    In fact, of the 10 games he's played this year, Denver was his 3rd lowest receiving total with 4 catches for 35 yards and 0 TD's. Baltimore held him to 2 for 21 (a higher average per catch) and Buffalo managed to hold him to 3 for 31 (also a higher average) in their second meeting. He grabbed 5 for 104 and a TD in his first meeting with the Bills. Does that mean Buffalo's ability to deal with TE's suddenly tanked in 45 days?

    His lowest yards per catch this season? Against Denver. His shortest "long" of a game? Tied between Denver and Baltimore (12 yards).

    Apparently Denver dealt with him better than everyone else....

    Gonzalez got his 5th highest total of the season for receptions against the Broncos, I'll give you that. But on 8 occasions he averaged more yards per catch than against the Broncos.

    Greg Olsen tore the Broncos up. No argument there. His best game of the year arguably came against Denver. Although on 9 other occasions he was more efficient per pass.

    Overall Denver is 8th against the pass while being 2nd against the run. At the time they met New England, they were way worse in both categories. That does matter. They gave up 250 rushing yards to New England when last they met; it wasn't Gronk that presented much of a problem (as I noted with real numbers above). Now they are 2nd against the run, while New England has fallen from 1st in rushing to 8th since the Broncos game.

    So many small factors are changing the dynamic of the match up. Dealing with TE's isn't a glaring weakness of the Broncos, by comparison to lots of other teams, and they've vastly improved in the other areas of the game. If Brady wants to try and win games on the backs of his TE's, welcome it. He won't win that way. Where they win is with the unexpected little guys like Woodhead, Edelman, and Lloyd. They are slippery, sneaky, and quick. They are also very disciplined in that system.

    Gronk is great when the Patriots force a turnover and have a short field. He's a big red zone target. Fortunately for Denver, DT has squared away his fumbleitis, and Moreno doesn't have that problem at all.

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    • #47
      The argument that we were so successful against Gronk falls flat when the defense allowed 251 rushing, 444 total, and 35 first downs. You can't allow that type of production and then suggest that Gronk's 35 yards means we effectively defended him. All it means is that there were other options that were clearly easy to exploit against us, or that we sold the farm to stop him.

      I'm sure we could triple-team him and hold him to 0 catches for 0 yards. Then, based on this line of thinking, we would be one of the best defenses of all time.

      And please find and quote where I said we're the only team that has problems with them.

      Lastly I don't believe "following all teams" makes you more knowledgeable about a team than the fans of that team, who have followed it far more closely, and for far longer, than you have.
      "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Doogansquest View Post
        I didn't just start following the Broncos. I just started posting on the board several months ago. I follow every team in the NFL. I'm a fan of the game more than anything. While I have my favorite teams, I'm an information guy. I run a lot of said information for individuals (and organizations) that depend on said information to improve their "odds." I have to observe.

        The Bears may not care about elite TE's, as you say, but they also gave up a slew of 100+ yard rushers, 4.4 yards per carry (compared to Denver's 3.6), and have and 8-6 record. Now's the part where you come up with a bunch of excuses for them. Seems as though the areas Denver's D excels is means more to the bottom line than where the Bears are "elite." You will lose more games to not getting off of the field against the run than you will against TE's.

        Those TE's do run rampant all around the league, short of a few select defenses. There's a reason why 5 or 6 TE's reach 1000 yards and close to 10 TD's per season now. Offenses are taking advantage of the LEAGUE-WIDE inability to man-up TE's. Most LB's are too slow, and most Safeties or Corners are too small. Sometimes they can be chipped, or a defense can show blitzes that force the TE to stay on the line, but a lot of offenses will turn that around by having the TE bump the blitz and slip into an open spot for a big play.

        Fox isn't the only one who has trouble with them. That's showing that you ONLY watch the Denver Broncos.

        In fact, of the 10 games he's played this year, Denver was his 3rd lowest receiving total with 4 catches for 35 yards and 0 TD's. Baltimore held him to 2 for 21 (a higher average per catch) and Buffalo managed to hold him to 3 for 31 (also a higher average) in their second meeting. He grabbed 5 for 104 and a TD in his first meeting with the Bills. Does that mean Buffalo's ability to deal with TE's suddenly tanked in 45 days?

        His lowest yards per catch this season? Against Denver. His shortest "long" of a game? Tied between Denver and Baltimore (12 yards).

        Apparently Denver dealt with him better than everyone else....

        Gonzalez got his 5th highest total of the season for receptions against the Broncos, I'll give you that. But on 8 occasions he averaged more yards per catch than against the Broncos.

        Greg Olsen tore the Broncos up. No argument there. His best game of the year arguably came against Denver. Although on 9 other occasions he was more efficient per pass.

        Overall Denver is 8th against the pass while being 2nd against the run. At the time they met New England, they were way worse in both categories. That does matter. They gave up 250 rushing yards to New England when last they met; it wasn't Gronk that presented much of a problem (as I noted with real numbers above). Now they are 2nd against the run, while New England has fallen from 1st in rushing to 8th since the Broncos game.

        So many small factors are changing the dynamic of the match up. Dealing with TE's isn't a glaring weakness of the Broncos, by comparison to lots of other teams, and they've vastly improved in the other areas of the game. If Brady wants to try and win games on the backs of his TE's, welcome it. He won't win that way. Where they win is with the unexpected little guys like Woodhead, Edelman, and Lloyd. They are slippery, sneaky, and quick. They are also very disciplined in that system.

        Gronk is great when the Patriots force a turnover and have a short field. He's a big red zone target. Fortunately for Denver, DT has squared away his fumbleitis, and Moreno doesn't have that problem at all.
        Just curious- does all the information gathering have a .. financial purpose? If you had a football blog I'd probably read it.

        Comment


        • #49
          The fallacy of the OP's premise is that defending TEs demonstrates a systemic problem.

          In the three losses, turnovers by the offense were as big if not a bigger problem than defending TEs.

          NFL TEs enjoy success as a result of where they line up, who throws to them and the rest of their offense, other aspects of which may preoccupy the opposing defense.

          Running the ball and stopping the run are the foundation of success in the NFL. I have four former coaching colleagues on a HS team that does nothing but throw the ball, and they advanced to the state semi-finals, but that will not work in the NFL where being one-dimensional is a recipe for losing. That is why stopping the run is vital; it makes the opponent one-dimensional.

          TEs are a concern only as they represent part of the passing and rushing attacks which must be accounted for on each defensive call from the DC.

          If I'm not mistaken, the Patriots' rushing yards on October 7 came mostly from the quick lineup/quick snap after a huddle. I'm sure John Fox and Jack Del Rio have been working on an answer to that. There is plenty of video on that now, and scout team can replicate that ad nauseum in practice. Having a suitable personnel package is part of the response. Question is, do the Pats go quick snap after each huddle? The answer may be to expect it. Do they mostly run the ball in the quick snap? If so, what type of blocking rules may be expected?

          Part of the success of Denver's run defense is team pursuit. That will be effective no matter what personnel package is in place.
          "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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