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  • Originally posted by ELWAY421 View Post
    Yea they lost to Miami, It was actually Buddy Ryan's defense who was the D coodinator for Ditka & every now & again you will see Rex or Rob use the 46. I was just wanting know what was the theory behind the 46, opposed to Ryan just using a 3-4 or 4-3????
    I think it was pretty dominant against the tighter run packages, yes?

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    • Originally posted by flosstein View Post
      That face mask "no-call" saved a huge play for Washington. He had one more cut to make and he was off to the races.
      That would be the case, more often than not, if Manning and Gase dial it up correctly. It's an out-of-the-blue play call they can then fake off of later. Other than literally grab on for dear life, I imagine the defenses have little else they can do if it's executed properly. Hopefully Holliday doesn't get hurt as a result.

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      • Originally posted by Doogansquest View Post
        I think it was pretty dominant against the tighter run packages, yes?
        Yeah, I would say 8 in the box in a time where the offense was 2 Wr, 1FB, 1HB, 1TE, 5OL, & the QB. It could have been real affective getting pressure on the QB too. You would have to have to real good corners. You know when you think about it now a days pro coaches really copy a lot of college offensive formations & plays. You would think it would be the other way around.

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        • I see Holliday being a great decoy receiver to run a post and take the defenders deep. He can get down the field in a hurry taking two defenders with him and spreading out the defense.

          I also see him being a great option for a bubble screen.
          sigpic

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          • Originally posted by crash123go View Post
            How is it a 50 when they're are no stand up DE on the field? We're not talking Robert ayers here we are talking about 2 traditional rush backers in a 3-4 with miller and Phillips
            It's what I saw on the field. 0 tech sometime Aggied in the A Gap. One of the 4/5 techs Eagled to a 3. Two stand up 9 techs. When that alignment is at LOS with Two Backers, it's a 50. The two defenses are easy to confuse. For years I thought they were the same until the guy I worked under chalked me up on it. Pro teams switch back and forth at will since many OLBs can play stand up End no problem.

            Seeing an alignment and understanding how it works are two different things. I went to Lobo Football Clinics for years and saw Bronco Mendenhall and Rocky Long chalk up the 3-3-5 before I began to get a clue. Same with the 4-2-5/4-4-3 that our head coach worked on with Gary Patterson and which I got to coach and call at the JV level.

            JDR already showed a Double Eagle look as far back as the season opener. It's not that much of a switch to play a straight 50. A lot of NFL odd front teams do. KC played a straight 50 against the Broncos in 2011. The Steelers played a lot of straight 50 against the Packers in Super Bowl XLV.

            JDR has shown 4-3, split front nickel and dime, Double Eagle, 3-3-5, 3-4 and 50. It looks like they have it all installed and just need to decide what to put in the game plan and rep during the week.
            Last edited by samparnell; 10-30-2013, 08:03 AM.
            "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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            • Originally posted by ELWAY421 View Post
              One more question if you don't mind, wasn't the 46 where the FS was deep middle & the SF was up closer with the linebackers? What was the basis of the 46 opposed to the 3-4 or 4-3?
              Buddy Ryan called his D 46 because his SS, Doug Plank, wore #46. It's a version of the Double Eagle which itself is a shifted 50. 50 has 0 and two 4/5 techs, two stand up 9s and two Backers. The 46 aka "Bear" has 0 tech, two 3 techs, a wide 9 on the split side, a Backer lined up as a 7 on the tight side (inside the TE), SS as a 9 on the tight side and Backers over the OTs at Backer depth.

              Two Corners and a FS round out the Secondary. Regular Double Eagle is just a 50 with the 4/5 techs kicked inside to 3s. Broncos ran the Double Eagle in game #1. Double Eagle and "Bear" are very difficult to run on because the Center and Guards are covered. Angle Blocked rushing attacks use pulling Guards. T-N-T defeats that blocking scheme.

              It's easy to recognize from the T-N-T interior DL. Homer Smith gave a good clinic presentation "Scoring Through the Double Eagle" on p.32 of Offensive Football Strategies published by the American Football Coaches Association.

              4-3, 4-2-5/4-4-3 area split front Ds while the 50, 3-4, "Bear" and Double Eagle are odd fronts. 46/"Bear" is essentially a six man line with two Backers which makes it similar to the 6-2 Under/Over/Normal which was considered effective against the Single Wing.
              Last edited by samparnell; 10-30-2013, 08:06 AM.
              "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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              • Can you explain what the under/over/nornal designations mean? I've been wondering.

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                • Originally posted by Hanzo the Razor View Post
                  Can you explain what the under/over/nornal designations mean? I've been wondering.
                  Undershifted slides to the weak side, overshifted slides to the strong side. Normal was the straight 6-2 alignment. It's covered in Winning Single Wing Football: A Simplified Guide for the Football Coach by Ken Keuffel.
                  "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                  • Originally posted by crash123go View Post
                    How is it a 50 when they're are no stand up DE on the field? We're not talking Robert ayers here we are talking about 2 traditional rush backers in a 3-4 with miller and Phillips
                    LMAO. Obviously you do need explanation. I thought you were so brilliant. It's a 50 because of the alignments of interior linemen. 0 and 5 techniques from the nose and tackles respectively. Maybe humble up a little and listen instead of getting defensive. It's all about learning.
                    Last edited by // / yardo; 10-29-2013, 09:45 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                      Buddy Ryan called his D 46 because his SS, Doug Plank, wore #46. It's a version of the Double Eagle which itself is a shifted 50. 50 has 0 and two 4/5 techs, two stand up 9s and two Backers. The 46 aka "Bear" has 0 tech, two 3 techs, a wide 9 on the split side, a Backer lined up as a 7 on the tight side (inside the TE), SS as a 9 on the tight side and Backers over the OTs at Backer depth.

                      Two Corners and a FS round out the Secondary. Regular Double Eagle is just a 50 with the 4/5 techs kicked inside to 3s. Broncos ran the Double Eagle in game #1. Double Eagle and "Bear" are very difficult to run on because the Center and Guards are covered. Angle Blocked rushing attacks use pulling Guards. T-N-T defeats that blocking scheme.

                      It's easy to recognize from the T-N-T interior DL. Homer Smith gave a good clinic presentation "Scoring Through the Double Eagle" on p.32 of Offensive Football Strategies published by the American Football Coaches Association.

                      4-3 is a split front D while the 50, 3-4, "Bear" and Double Eagle are odd fronts. 46/"Bear" is essentially a six man line with two Backers which makes it similar to the 6-2 Under/Over/Normal which was considered effective against the Single Wing.
                      Thanks SP.....

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                      • Originally posted by crash123go View Post
                        I don't need football defense explained to me, I would put my knowledge of how defense is played against anyone on this board except Sam. I know the difference of personnel, technique and what I see on the tape
                        Cut him some slack. He's currently coaching if I'm not mistaken. He made some good points.
                        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                        • Originally posted by // / yardo View Post
                          LMAO. Obviously you do need explanation. I thought you were so brilliant. It's a 50 because of the alignments of interior linemen. 0 and 5 techniques from the nose and tackles respectively. Maybe humble up a little and listen instead of getting defensive. It's all about learning.
                          Well I wasn't asking you so thanks for replying. I was simply asking Sam a question because he said it was a 50 because of the alignment of the down lineman and the standup DE but we didnt have any standup DE on the field, you can can complicate anything you want. You want to call it a 50, you want to call it a eagle or 46 I don't care but at the end of the day when you get to the base of it it's a 3-4. I may not be able to give you the entire history of a formation like Sam but I know how to play and call defense and I have two blown out knees to prove it
                          Last edited by crash123go; 10-29-2013, 11:52 PM.
                          A healthy Kenneth Dixon is a top 5 NFL RB.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by crash123go View Post
                            Well I wasn't asking you so thanks for replying. I was simply asking Sam a question because he said it was a 50 because of the alignment of the down lineman and the standup DE but we didnt have any standup DE on the field, you can can complicate anything you want. You want to call it a 50, you want to call it a eagle or 46 I don't care but at the end of the day when you get to the base of it it's a 3-4. I may not be able to give you the entire history of a formation like Sam but I know how to play and call defense and I have two blown out knees to prove it
                            No you responded to my explanation with hostility for absolutely no reason. I couldn't care less what you know. But you want to discuss stuff on a message board you better be ready for others to chime in on conversations. You try to come across me like you know everything and turn around and not know why a 50 defense is referred to as such? Yeah, you don't know as much as you think you do. If you had read my post you would have understood why coaches that have been in the game a long time reference their defensive alignments by techniques and NOT down linemen vs linebackers.

                            You want to get into a pissing contest? Over the past year I've written my own defensive playbook from an odd 0 5 alignment starting with the traditional 50 and now based on a 3-3-5. A year and a half ago I started as a high school level non paid volunteer defensive backs coach and successfully implemented 5 coverage shells including mixed coverage calls on a high school team that has never seen anything beyond a cover 1 man under. Through my immediate success with my shells I was promoted to defensive coordinator after my first season. I think I know a little something about 0 5 alignments. In fact just before responding to your tirade I was on a 1.5 hours long web conference on the 3-3-5 with coaches all around the country that apply this stuff in real life. Over this past weekend my 0 5 based defense accounted for 7 turnovers (5 int's, 2 pick sixs) and two scores. And just to give you some context this is all being coached to a team of Native American kids who have never played organized football in their lives. We're teaching them football from the ground up. We've also successfully implemented my defensive playbook at the midschool level with another native American football team that hadn't won a game in three years and have now won their last two games with amazing success on the defensive side of the ball.

                            Get off your horse man. You'll learn a lot more with an open mind instead of flipping out on every person that attempts to have an intelligent conversation with you. Not everyone is against you and I definitely wasn't debating or correcting anything you were saying. So you have no reason to respond to me like that.

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                            • Julius Thomas?

                              Any new updates on his injury? Last I heard they were talking high ankle sprain. Will he be back after the bye?

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                              • Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                                Any new updates on his injury? Last I heard they were talking high ankle sprain. Will he be back after the bye?
                                From what I gathered it wasn't a high ankle sprain, it was mid to low ankle sprain according the MRI reports. I'd say there's a chance he could be ready for the Chargers game. We won't know for sure until next week I would think.

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