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Why is the talk about who is better more dependent on Super Bowls than MVPs?

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  • Frozen.taco
    replied
    Originally posted by ERoyal248 View Post
    Flacco/Dilfer/Brad Johnson > Marino?

    If rings are the end all.

    IF Eli won another SB, would he be equal to Brady, your logic.
    Well Eli leads in the SB head to head matchup so that automatically makes him better now

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  • Hawaii007
    replied
    Originally posted by RandomVariable View Post
    Way more? Manning's advantage in MVP awards (two) equals Brady's advantage in SB rings (two.) And the MVP award isn't usually given to the "most valuable player." It's usually given to the player with the most impressive stats. These two aren't mutually exclusive, but they also don't have to coincide. And since Manning has had a better supporting cast on offense, it makes sense that he would have more MVPs.

    Why would regular season MVP mean more than SB MVP though? Brady has more SB MVP awards than Peyton.
    If you don't understand the ridiculousness of that comparison I don't know what to say. In case it wasn't obvious, every player has equal opportunity to qualify for a regular season MVP compared to a Super Bowl MVP.

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  • LikeABoss
    replied
    Originally posted by broncolee View Post
    The argument for who is the greatest quarterback can never be adequately settled because football is the ultimate team sport.

    Evaluating any football player is extremely subjective. If it were an exact science or even a reasonably accurate science, there wouldn't be as many draft busts as there are.

    Stats, championships, and MVP awards just can't objectively prove that one quarterback is greater than any other to have played the game, especially given the different eras in which many of the greats have played.
    MVP's don't even belong in the discussion. MVP's aren't fought for in a football game with a monster defense trying to stop you. They're voted on purely subjectively. I don't value the worth of MVP awards at all, because who votes? And who is to say his opinion is more valid then yours? Or more valid than mine? MVP awards are ribbons, pinned on your chest like a 2nd grade prize. I could care less about Manning's, Brady's Montana's, etc. It's just a little celebration. It isn't a tangible feat.

    Stats matter. I'm not trying to say they're not - they are. But your dismissal of championships reeks of agenda.
    It's wanting something to be true for a purpose so bad you're really reaching and essentially dismiss the Superbowl and the warpath it requires to get there.

    There is a huge difference in playing the absolute best from the opposite conference on the greatest stage of them all. Winning that game has required some of the most unbelievable plays in NFL history. The Superbowl trophy is the supreme end all for immortality in the National Football League.

    Stats too, but stats usually come with a story as well.

    I would never take Dan Marino over Elway for that reason. The greats blaze their way through the gauntlet.

    Edit: Oh sorry, didn't mean to direct "your" to the quote author. I was addressing others more generally after throwing my two cents in about MVPs
    Last edited by LikeABoss; 12-06-2013, 03:44 PM.

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  • ERoyal248
    replied
    Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post

    There are no purely individual stats in a team sport. To say championships don't determine who the greatest is but some stat does is completely ridiculous.
    Flacco/Dilfer/Brad Johnson > Marino?

    If rings are the end all.

    IF Eli won another SB, would he be equal to Brady, your logic.

    Leave a comment:


  • duhyaj
    replied
    Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post
    He was. He was one of, if not the single greatest passer in NFL history, doing it at a time when quarterbacks were actually treated like football players, but there is more to being a great quarterback than passing if his talents as a passer weren't enough to win championships. Why did post season defenses defeat his prolific passing abilities and not John Elway? Why didn't Joe Montana wilt under the pressure of a last minute game winning touchdown drive?

    Not everything is measurable in numbers, especially numbers that come against regular season opponents that aren't necessarily that good at football.

    If you and I are deciding between Marino and Montana for which quarterbacks we're going to take for our franchises, and I take Montana, and you take Marino for his prolific passing abilities, history says I will go on to win four Superbowls and you won't go on to win any.

    LOL history doesnt say that at all, Montana won Superbowls with Roger Craig, John taylor, jerry rice, Brent jones, an all most all, all pro offensive line, and three of the top defenses in the league as well... Dan Marino had Mark clayton and Mark duper, never had a 1000 yard rusher, never had a pocket to stand in he had the quickest release in nfl history, almost always got the ball out within 2 seconds... Also they did beat up on Elway's abilities until we added a great running back and an amazing offensive line that went on to block for like 7 1000 yard rushers in the years after Elway and TD... History says nothing about how great QBS are Joe Montana was average at best on an AMAZING TEAM.. I would and most would take Elway, Marino, Manning, Fouts Farve over Montana if they were gonna put them on the 49ers of the 80/90s....

    Leave a comment:


  • broncolee
    replied
    The argument for who is the greatest quarterback can never be adequately settled because football is the ultimate team sport.

    Evaluating any football player is extremely subjective. If it were an exact science or even a reasonably accurate science, there wouldn't be as many draft busts as there are.

    Stats, championships, and MVP awards just can't objectively prove that one quarterback is greater than any other to have played the game, especially given the different eras in which many of the greats have played.

    Leave a comment:


  • LikeABoss
    replied
    Originally posted by one_bad_55 View Post
    The only people who see it the way you are describing are casual football fans. The casual fan will only know the players based on records as you describe and are not familiar with football history.

    A purest would know that a player cannot be determined by how many rings he has. There are a lot of football players that never got a ring that are MUCH better than some that did. Football is a team sport and you win and lose as a team.
    You throw touchdown passes, gain rushing yards, and get sacks as a team too (unless you're Barry Sanders).
    You do everything as a team. To say stats belong exclusively to the individual and not also the team mates, but world championships are a team effort only, is to be hypocritical.

    How many times this season has Peyton Manning's offensive line protected him while he dumped a 10 yard pass off to a WR who ran for 60 yards and a TD that had little to do with Manning?

    How many touchdown passes did Brady throw up into double (and even tripple) coverage to have Randy Moss pull it down where no other receiver would?

    How many rushing yards would Emmit Smith have gained if his offensive line was horrible? Or if teams didn't need to defend against Michael Irving?

    There are no purely individual stats in a team sport. To say championships don't determine who the greatest is but some stat does is completely ridiculous.
    Last edited by LikeABoss; 12-06-2013, 03:20 PM.

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  • ERoyal248
    replied
    Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post
    He was. He was one of, if not the single greatest passer in NFL history, doing it at a time when quarterbacks were actually treated like football players, but there is more to being a great quarterback than passing if his talents as a passer weren't enough to win championships. Why did post season defenses defeat his prolific passing abilities and not John Elway? Why didn't Joe Montana wilt under the pressure of a last minute game winning touchdown drive?

    Not everything is measurable in numbers, especially numbers that come against regular season opponents that aren't necessarily that good at football.

    If you and I are deciding between Marino and Montana for which quarterbacks we're going to take for our franchises, and I take Montana, and you take Marino for his prolific passing abilities, history says I will go on to win four Superbowls and you won't go on to win any.
    Because it's a team game?

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  • LikeABoss
    replied
    Originally posted by duhyaj View Post
    No one else has said it so I will, I think you are nuts if you dont think that Marino is still in the conversation for GOAT.... He was and is probably the most prolific pure passer this league has ever seen. His numbers were astronomical in a league where every other QB was considered great with 3k seasons, meanwhile Marino was approaching or surpassing 4k, and 5k once... His TD numbers were only topped by two players and still only topped by a couple maybe three or four, his comeback wins are third or fourth in all tie history, all of those numbers and I challenge you to name more than two of his receivers of any worth. I am an Elway homer and I still think Marino was as will be the GOAT so I guess I am one of the only... I doubt that...
    He was. He was one of, if not the single greatest passer in NFL history, doing it at a time when quarterbacks were actually treated like football players, but there is more to being a great quarterback than passing if his talents as a passer weren't enough to win championships. Why did post season defenses defeat his prolific passing abilities and not John Elway? Why didn't Joe Montana wilt under the pressure of a last minute game winning touchdown drive?

    Not everything is measurable in numbers, especially numbers that come against regular season opponents that aren't necessarily that good at football.

    If you and I are deciding between Marino and Montana for which quarterbacks we're going to take for our franchises, and I take Montana, and you take Marino for his prolific passing abilities, history says I will go on to win four Superbowls and you won't go on to win any.

    Leave a comment:


  • one_bad_55
    replied
    Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post
    I never said he would be forgotten. He won't be forgotten. No quarterback that has been in the league as long as Peyton has, with a Superbowl championship, will be forgotten. What I'm telling you is, he will fall out of the GOAT discussion without more championships.

    I understand Peyton is well liked, and for his biggest fans this sounds like an impossibility, but quarterbacks are not remembered as GOATs for great regular seasons.

    If you argue Peyton versus Joe Montana you're going to lose. Four Superbowl victories and 16 play off wins completely dominates one Superbowl victory with double digit post season losses and single digit post season wins. No matter why, how, or for who, that just doesn't cut it.

    Again, once upon a time people argued Marino was the GOAT... when he was in the league. Dan Fouts was "the greatest regular season quarterback of all time" before people referred to Peyton Manning as such. 20 years after Manning hangs it up, the future NFL fan is just not going to see the accomplishments to even put him into any GOAT conversation, even if old 50 and 60 year old Colt fans tell their grandchildren that he was a great quarterback, just like 50 and 60 year old Dolphin fans say the same today about Marino. The world at large, however, doesn't even remotely consider Marino the best of all time despite all the fan fare about him being one of the best when he hung it up.

    It just isn't solid enough down the stretch.

    The measure of greatness changes dramatically after retirement. MVP's and passing records simply don't cut it in the long haul. It's hard to see that now while in the moment, but they don't last, not in the record books, not in the conversation.

    Dolphin fans, Bronco fans, and 49'er fans used to argue about how their QB was the best when they played. After the lights go out and the ride ends, only Montana survived posterity on the topic of greatest of all time, even if older Bronco and Dolphin fans still have their favorites.

    It's just the way it is.
    The only people who see it the way you are describing are casual football fans. The casual fan will only know the players based on records as you describe and are not familiar with football history.

    A purest would know that a player cannot be determined by how many rings he has. There are a lot of football players that never got a ring that are MUCH better than some that did. Football is a team sport and you win and lose as a team.

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  • ERoyal248
    replied
    Originally posted by duhyaj View Post
    LOL he has 8 post and a join date of just around the New england game... Im guessing a Tom Brady/Pats homer and thus Tom Brady has 20 more years and will be the most amazing player any sports team has ever seen... just a guess though...
    I'll confess and agree Brady has longer but hes not superhuman and can play at an elite level at 45.

    Every great player breaks down at some point, we're unfortunately seeing it with Champ, and others have as well.

    Father time catches up to everyone.

    I'd say Manning has 2-3 more good years left, Brady 4-5.

    Leave a comment:


  • LikeABoss
    replied
    Originally posted by broncolee View Post
    I think most reasonable people understand that Super Bowl championships don't decide who the best quarterback is.

    The use of MVP awards is also unfair as it is very obvious that those who vote for the award are looking to give it to a quarterback unless a player at another position just has too good of a season to ignore.

    The talking heads push the idea of Super Bowls being the measuring stick because the quarterback position is the sexy topic. They are selling personalities over the game and the quarterback is the personality that most people want to here about.
    What on earth would you measure it by? I actually think you have it exactly backwards. It's MVP awards and the stats of people that are hitting the golf course come Superbowl time that's the rubbish of the talking heads.

    It's a team sport, through and through. Individual stats and even MVP awards are as much a result of your team as world championships are. If you gave Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, and Tom Brady four Calvin Johnsons, they would throw 70 touchdown passes in a single season and reach 7,000 passing yards.

    The only difference between stats, MVPs and championships, is championships are forever, immortalized and unable to be taken away, and they're earned against the highest level of competition.

    Stats and MVP awards is exactly what you amazingly say world championships are, which is hogwash for the talking heads to have discussions over. If Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were surrounded by trash receivers, and had to play post season defenses every week for the entire season, neither would of ever thrown for record seasons.

    Everyone plays different schedules, different strengths of schedules, and in different divisions.
    2007 is a perfect example. Eli Manning and the NYG played in one of the hardest divisions in football, and emerged with a record of 9-7, but battle hardened for the tournament. Brady played an entirely different schedule and threw 50 touchdown passes and went undefeated.

    When it was all said and done, who got what they wanted out of the 2007 season? Eli's championship is forever. Tom Brady's TD record is temporary, like all records before it and all records that will come after it.

    The Lombardi is what matters. That's why they play. That's what puts them to the test.

    If John Elway didn't win those back to back Superbowls before retiring, he would be remembered completely differently, and his legacy would be more along the lines of Jim Kelly, good as Jim Kelly was.

    Winning is winning. Losing is losing.

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  • duhyaj
    replied
    Originally posted by ERoyal248 View Post
    Yet it's on Brady's side?

    He probably has 2 more good years more than Manning does.

    Not much longer than Manning does.

    Neither have much time on their side.
    LOL he has 8 post and a join date of just around the New england game... Im guessing a Tom Brady/Pats homer and thus Tom Brady has 20 more years and will be the most amazing player any sports team has ever seen... just a guess though...

    Leave a comment:


  • ERoyal248
    replied
    Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post
    I

    Time is not on Peyton's side.
    Yet it's on Brady's side?

    He probably has 2 more good years more than Manning does.

    Not much longer than Manning does.

    Neither have much time on their side.

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  • duhyaj
    replied
    Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post
    An honorable mention isn't the same as greatest of all time.

    Lots of people get honorable mentions. They're just not all compared to Joe Montana. Nobody is saying people now think Dan Marino was a bad quarterback, or that Dan Fouts was a bad quarterback. They just don't consider them the GOAT. Why is Joe Montana considered the best quarterback of all time? Because he was a four time world champion.

    Dan Marino was probably a better pure passer than Joe Montana. Know what? It doesn't matter. Montana had the intangibles. His skill set at the end of the day hoisted Lombardi trophies. Dan Marino's didn't.

    Championships are what they play for. That is, in the long term, the measuring stick.

    People who were born in 1990 and never saw Joe Montana throw a single touchdown pass will say that he was the greatest. Why? Because he was a four time world champion. He played the best and beat the best.

    Lebron is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan, and yet he'll never touch Jordan as the GOAT because Jordan was a six time champion and played his best against the best when it mattered most.
    lol that is laughable as well... LeBron isn't in the same ball park as Bird and Jordan, and Magic, even Zeke.... Maybe when LeBron loses his me first attitude but with this post I can tell you have about zero real knowledge and its not worth reading any ore posts ... LOL Lebron Better than Jordan....

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