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Why is the talk about who is better more dependent on Super Bowls than MVPs?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by RandomVariable View Post
    Clutch doesn't imply perfection. Even Montana lost playoff games.
    8 postseasons in a row with a playoff loss? I don't think that falls under the imaginary rules of "clutch".
    sigpicthanks Freyaka

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Hawaii007 View Post
      It just hit me that the arguments put forth by Brady fans and the media that he is better than Manning because of the Super Bowl disparity makes no sense in light of the fact Manning has way more MVPs. In all seriousness, which "award" or result is more dependent on the overall team versus a single player's skills? Winning a Super Bowl or winning an MVP? I can't imagine ANYONE saying that winning a Super Bowl more accurately reflects an individual player's greatness than the MVPs because MVPs are defined as the Most Valuable (Individual) Player. I guess that is why they try to distinguish Manning as the greatest regular season QB of all time, however, again, isn't it disingenuous to say that Brady deserves the post-season title over Manning when their post-season stats are very similar, except for the most team-dependent stat, wins?
      I wonder if this is a carry-over because of Jordan, and how everyone said he was the greatest ever because of the championships. Of course there is a huge difference in this argument, because basketball is a lot different of a sport than football, AND Jordan won his own share of MVPs, along with championships.
      While both are very impressive, I think that the relative value can be answered relatively easily by; How many MVP awards do you think that Peyton would give for one more SB win?

      I think winning when it counts is the most important value for a player. That is the reason I still like Tebow, still, like Plummer, never liked Cutler and always loved Elway. Manning for right or wrong has not gotten it done enough in the biggest games and that is a blemish on his reputation. I think that Manning needs another SB win to fairly be put on par with Brady. They are both at such a high level and have been there for so long, but when you put together the 4-10 in head to head, and Manning's comparatively poor play off record, objectively you have to give the upper hand to Brady.

      Is Brady the better QB - it is not really possible to answer - but as of now achievements weigh heavily in Brady's favour.

      Comment


      • #48
        Brady, Brady, Brady...blah, blah, blah.

        SB victories is a far less accurate gauge of QB quality than the (league) MVP award. SB is a team victory, MVP, OF THE LEAGUE, says more about player quality.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by mray View Post
          Brady, Brady, Brady...blah, blah, blah.

          SB victories is a far less accurate gauge of QB quality than the (league) MVP award. SB is a team victory, MVP, OF THE LEAGUE, says more about player quality.
          MVP's are fan fare. They're an award that's voted on and a matter of opinion. Some people think Peyton is the MVP, some people think Brady is the MVP, some people think Rodgers is the MVP, some people think someone else is MVP.

          Superbowl championships aren't opinion, and the winner of the Lombardi isn't decided on by people casting a vote based on an opinion.

          Comparing MVPs with Superbowl rings is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

          Comment


          • #50
            You know what else gets me? It's almost as though you are better off not even making the postseason than getting a postseason loss. Look at Eli. 8-3 in the playoffs right? Yeah, well he's missed the playoffs entirely like half his career. Playoff record is so flawed. Unless you win the Superbowl every year, you are guaranteed to have a playoff loss. Manning has made the postseason what like 13 out of 15 years? Pretty consistent .... 2 Superbowl appearances, 3 AFC title games, a ring, even postseason stats with the like of the "great" Tom Brady. Let's not forget how unlucky Manning is in the postseason. 5 times he gave his team the lead in elimination games with a minute or less left and special teams and or defense blew it and they lost.

            Superbowls is a team effort as is every game in the NFL. If you want to judge a player on what they've done, you have to look at there individual accomplishments. Manning and Brady both are about even statistic wise in the playoffs. Regular season Manning edges him out. Manning is on his way to a record 5 MVPS!! That's insane. To be awarded 5 MVP's (Almost 6 where he would've won if it weren't for AP) means you are pretty much voted as the NFL's best that year.

            I'm sorry, but as a pure QB Manning is the best I ever seen. Few unlikely things in the postseason is what hurts him by the medias standards, but I pay no mind.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by PManningTKO View Post
              You know what else gets me? It's almost as though you are better off not even making the postseason than getting a postseason loss. Look at Eli. 8-3 in the playoffs right? Yeah, well he's missed the playoffs entirely like half his career. Playoff record is so flawed. Unless you win the Superbowl every year, you are guaranteed to have a playoff loss. Manning has made the postseason what like 13 out of 15 years? Pretty consistent .... 2 Superbowl appearances, 3 AFC title games, a ring, even postseason stats with the like of the "great" Tom Brady. Let's not forget how unlucky Manning is in the postseason. 5 times he gave his team the lead in elimination games with a minute or less left and special teams and or defense blew it and they lost.

              Superbowls is a team effort as is every game in the NFL. If you want to judge a player on what they've done, you have to look at there individual accomplishments. Manning and Brady both are about even statistic wise in the playoffs. Regular season Manning edges him out. Manning is on his way to a record 5 MVPS!! That's insane. To be awarded 5 MVP's (Almost 6 where he would've won if it weren't for AP) means you are pretty much voted as the NFL's best that year.

              I'm sorry, but as a pure QB Manning is the best I ever seen. Few unlikely things in the postseason is what hurts him by the medias standards, but I pay no mind.
              I'm sorry but this is just crazy and sounds like you're trying to convince yourself more so than speak the truth. Whether you think Peyton is the GOAT or not, his play off record is a huge blow to his legacy.

              Joe Montana, Tom Brady and Terry Bradshaw are the NFL post season legends, and no amount of rationalizing anything other than that is going to make it different. John Elway gets an honorable mention.

              Play off wins and championships are what matters after people hang up their boots. Ten years after a player calls it quits, all the individual stats go out the window. They aren't remembered.

              Remember, when Marino first retired, he was in the GOAT discussion, but that was because he was a prolific passer that was fresh in everyone minds. As time goes by, we see how irrelevant that stuff becomes because it is forgotten, and rightfully so. Its Superbowls, Superbowl appearances and play off wins that make a great a great. Stats only count in the moment. After retirement, ten, twenty years down the line, nobody pays them a lick of attention next to rings, championships and post season victories.

              Just ask Dan Fouts and Dan Marino.

              Peyton is a great quarterback, but after him and Brady retire, time is going to erode Peyton's legacy without more championships and he's going to fall out of the GOAT discussion completely, just like Dan Marino did.

              Future generations that have never seen him play aren't going to talk about how his defense didn't make a stop, or how he didn't have home field advantage, or how a receiver bumbled his pass into an interception. They're not going to talk about MVPs. These are all discussions that take place in the present, like the arguments that used to take place for Marino. 15 years after retirement, they vanish completely outside very small circles and people look at championship rings and wins.

              Time is not on Peyton's side.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post

                Peyton is a great quarterback, but after him and Brady retire, time is going to erode Peyton's legacy without more championships and he's going to fall out of the GOAT discussion completely, just like Dan Marino did.
                I have to disagree with you. I have absolutely no idea why you think Peyton Manning's legacy will "erode" as time goes by. If for no other reason, one would have to believe that Peyton's legacy will live on simply because the Manning family will forever be cemented into football's history.

                I have a strong feeling that Peyton will do some other great football related things after he's finished playing, too. Sorry to burst your bubble -- Peyton won't be forgotten.

                Also, I think you should ask Miami Dolphins fans if they've forgotten about Marino. For that matter, anybody with knowledge of the game remembers Marino.
                Last edited by Conner13; 12-06-2013, 01:30 PM.

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                • #53
                  Uh, no one thinks Dan Marino is out of the GOAT talks -- no one intelligent, anyway.

                  The NFL Top 10 Players of all time was voted on by current and former NFL coaches, players and front office personnel, as well as noted NFL media members, Hall of Fame voters and league historians. The top ten QBs on the list, with their placement on the list in parenthesis --
                  Joe Montana (#3)
                  John Unitas (#6)
                  Peyton Manning (#8)
                  Sammy Baugh (#14)
                  Otto Graham (#16)
                  Brett Favre (#20)
                  Tom Brady (#21)
                  John Elway (#23)
                  Dan Marino (#25)
                  Sid Luckman (#33)

                  http://forums.footballguys.com/forum...owtopic=552157

                  So there you have it. Manning is in the top three, Brady isn't even top five. Marino is in the top ten. And if you're going to say the panel of current and former NFL coaches, players and front office personnel, as well as noted NFL media members, Hall of Fame voters and league historians don't know as much about football as you -- well, you just don't have any credibility and sound a bit foolish.

                  Boom.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    And see, this is why the Pats fans are obsessed with Manning and come to this board to hate on him -- because in their world, rings equals talent and greatness, and that's it.

                    But out there in the real world, among football experts and people who know what they're talking about, rings don't mean someone is great or the greatest.

                    Joe Theissman, Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams and many more have one ring. Jim Plunkett and Ben Rothlesberger have two rings. Troy Aikman has three rings. Terry Bradshaw has four.

                    No one that knows anything about football considers any of them as great as Dan Marino.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Conner13 View Post
                      I have to disagree with you. I have absolutely no idea why you think Peyton Manning's legacy will "erode" as time goes by. If for no other reason, one would have to believe that Peyton's legacy will live on simply because the Manning family will forever be cemented into football's history.

                      I have a strong feeling that Peyton will do some other great football related things after he's finished playing, too. Sorry to burst your bubble -- Peyton won't be forgotten.

                      Also, I think you should ask Miami Dolphins fans if they've forgotten about Marino. For that matter, anybody with knowledge of the game remembers Marino.
                      I never said he would be forgotten. He won't be forgotten. No quarterback that has been in the league as long as Peyton has, with a Superbowl championship, will be forgotten. What I'm telling you is, he will fall out of the GOAT discussion without more championships.

                      I understand Peyton is well liked, and for his biggest fans this sounds like an impossibility, but quarterbacks are not remembered as GOATs for great regular seasons.

                      If you argue Peyton versus Joe Montana you're going to lose. Four Superbowl victories and 16 play off wins completely dominates one Superbowl victory with double digit post season losses and single digit post season wins. No matter why, how, or for who, that just doesn't cut it.

                      Again, once upon a time people argued Marino was the GOAT... when he was in the league. Dan Fouts was "the greatest regular season quarterback of all time" before people referred to Peyton Manning as such. 20 years after Manning hangs it up, the future NFL fan is just not going to see the accomplishments to even put him into any GOAT conversation, even if old 50 and 60 year old Colt fans tell their grandchildren that he was a great quarterback, just like 50 and 60 year old Dolphin fans say the same today about Marino. The world at large, however, doesn't even remotely consider Marino the best of all time despite all the fan fare about him being one of the best when he hung it up.

                      It just isn't solid enough down the stretch.

                      The measure of greatness changes dramatically after retirement. MVP's and passing records simply don't cut it in the long haul. It's hard to see that now while in the moment, but they don't last, not in the record books, not in the conversation.

                      Dolphin fans, Bronco fans, and 49'er fans used to argue about how their QB was the best when they played. After the lights go out and the ride ends, only Montana survived posterity on the topic of greatest of all time, even if older Bronco and Dolphin fans still have their favorites.

                      It's just the way it is.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I think most reasonable people understand that Super Bowl championships don't decide who the best quarterback is.

                        The use of MVP awards is also unfair as it is very obvious that those who vote for the award are looking to give it to a quarterback unless a player at another position just has too good of a season to ignore.

                        The talking heads push the idea of Super Bowls being the measuring stick because the quarterback position is the sexy topic. They are selling personalities over the game and the quarterback is the personality that most people want to here about.
                        My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                        You Mad Bro?
                        Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post
                          I never said he would be forgotten. He won't be forgotten. No quarterback that has been in the league as long as Peyton has, with a Superbowl championship, will be forgotten. What I'm telling you is, he will fall out of the GOAT discussion without more championships.

                          I understand Peyton is well liked, and for his biggest fans this sounds like an impossibility, but quarterbacks are not remembered as GOATs for great regular seasons.

                          If you argue Peyton versus Joe Montana you're going to lose. Four Superbowl victories and 16 play off wins completely dominates one Superbowl victory with double digit post season losses and single digit post season wins. No matter why, how, or for who, that just doesn't cut it.

                          Again, once upon a time people argued Marino was the GOAT... when he was in the league. Dan Fouts was "the greatest regular season quarterback of all time" before people referred to Peyton Manning as such. 20 years after Manning hangs it up, the future NFL fan is just not going to see the accomplishments to even put him into any GOAT conversation, even if old 50 and 60 year old Colt fans tell their grandchildren that he was a great quarterback, just like 50 and 60 year old Dolphin fans say the same today about Marino. The world at large, however, doesn't even remotely consider Marino the best of all time despite all the fan fare about him being one of the best when he hung it up.

                          It just isn't solid enough down the stretch.

                          The measure of greatness changes dramatically after retirement. MVP's and passing records simply don't cut it in the long haul. It's hard to see that now while in the moment, but they don't last, not in the record books, not in the conversation.

                          Dolphin fans, Bronco fans, and 49'er fans used to argue about how their QB was the best when they played. After the lights go out and the ride ends, only Montana survived posterity on the topic of greatest of all time, even if older Bronco and Dolphin fans still have their favorites.

                          It's just the way it is.
                          You'll be in the minority if you don't consider Peyton as one of the all time greats once he retires.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Hanzo the Razor View Post
                            Uh, no one thinks Dan Marino is out of the GOAT talks -- no one intelligent, anyway.

                            The NFL Top 10 Players of all time was voted on by current and former NFL coaches, players and front office personnel, as well as noted NFL media members, Hall of Fame voters and league historians. The top ten QBs on the list, with their placement on the list in parenthesis --
                            Joe Montana (#3)
                            John Unitas (#6)
                            Peyton Manning (#8)
                            Sammy Baugh (#14)
                            Otto Graham (#16)
                            Brett Favre (#20)
                            Tom Brady (#21)
                            John Elway (#23)
                            Dan Marino (#25)
                            Sid Luckman (#33)

                            http://forums.footballguys.com/forum...owtopic=552157

                            So there you have it. Manning is in the top three, Brady isn't even top five. Marino is in the top ten. And if you're going to say the panel of current and former NFL coaches, players and front office personnel, as well as noted NFL media members, Hall of Fame voters and league historians don't know as much about football as you -- well, you just don't have any credibility and sound a bit foolish.

                            Boom.
                            You don't at all think it's a little bit silly to link me to a forum post from 2010 based on a long all time list? That isn't meaningful at all.

                            I'm not sure how that's relevant. People making up lists isn't GOAT, and nothing that is said while these guys are still playing the game of football matters. I don't think you're understanding what I am saying at all.

                            And I'm not sure someone who thinks that MVP awards are better than rings should be calling anyone foolish.

                            The fact that Bret Favre is where he is says plenty about your list.

                            I have no idea when that list was made up, or who voted on it, or what it was based on, but it was a mere ten years after Marino retired. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are still playing football. Where people rank in an all time list before they're even retired is pretty silly. If you had all the same people who voted on that list in 2010 (or 2009 when it was in production) and had them vote again, it would look a lot different, and it still wouldn't be useful because these people are still playing football.

                            I'm not really understanding the purpose of posting that link to a forum post from a vote that took place 4 seasons ago but it seems mildly ridiculous to think that is going to stand in 30 years.

                            There can also only be one greatest of all time.

                            Also, Terry Bradshaw not making that list with four Championships basically completely discredits it.
                            I have no idea who voted on it, but it looks pretty pointless given the conversation and the fact it's almost 2014.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Conner13 View Post
                              You'll be in the minority if you don't consider Peyton as one of the all time greats once he retires.
                              An honorable mention isn't the same as greatest of all time.

                              Lots of people get honorable mentions. They're just not all compared to Joe Montana. Nobody is saying people now think Dan Marino was a bad quarterback, or that Dan Fouts was a bad quarterback. They just don't consider them the GOAT. Why is Joe Montana considered the best quarterback of all time? Because he was a four time world champion.

                              Dan Marino was probably a better pure passer than Joe Montana. Know what? It doesn't matter. Montana had the intangibles. His skill set at the end of the day hoisted Lombardi trophies. Dan Marino's didn't.

                              Championships are what they play for. That is, in the long term, the measuring stick.

                              People who were born in 1990 and never saw Joe Montana throw a single touchdown pass will say that he was the greatest. Why? Because he was a four time world champion. He played the best and beat the best.

                              Lebron is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan, and yet he'll never touch Jordan as the GOAT because Jordan was a six time champion and played his best against the best when it mattered most.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by LikeABoss View Post
                                I never said he would be forgotten. He won't be forgotten. No quarterback that has been in the league as long as Peyton has, with a Superbowl championship, will be forgotten. What I'm telling you is, he will fall out of the GOAT discussion without more championships.

                                I understand Peyton is well liked, and for his biggest fans this sounds like an impossibility, but quarterbacks are not remembered as GOATs for great regular seasons.

                                If you argue Peyton versus Joe Montana you're going to lose. Four Superbowl victories and 16 play off wins completely dominates one Superbowl victory with double digit post season losses and single digit post season wins. No matter why, how, or for who, that just doesn't cut it.

                                Again, once upon a time people argued Marino was the GOAT... when he was in the league. Dan Fouts was "the greatest regular season quarterback of all time" before people referred to Peyton Manning as such. 20 years after Manning hangs it up, the future NFL fan is just not going to see the accomplishments to even put him into any GOAT conversation, even if old 50 and 60 year old Colt fans tell their grandchildren that he was a great quarterback, just like 50 and 60 year old Dolphin fans say the same today about Marino. The world at large, however, doesn't even remotely consider Marino the best of all time despite all the fan fare about him being one of the best when he hung it up.

                                It just isn't solid enough down the stretch.

                                The measure of greatness changes dramatically after retirement. MVP's and passing records simply don't cut it in the long haul. It's hard to see that now while in the moment, but they don't last, not in the record books, not in the conversation.

                                Dolphin fans, Bronco fans, and 49'er fans used to argue about how their QB was the best when they played. After the lights go out and the ride ends, only Montana survived posterity on the topic of greatest of all time, even if older Bronco and Dolphin fans still have their favorites.

                                It's just the way it is.
                                No one else has said it so I will, I think you are nuts if you dont think that Marino is still in the conversation for GOAT.... He was and is probably the most prolific pure passer this league has ever seen. His numbers were astronomical in a league where every other QB was considered great with 3k seasons, meanwhile Marino was approaching or surpassing 4k, and 5k once... His TD numbers were only topped by two players and still only topped by a couple maybe three or four, his comeback wins are third or fourth in all tie history, all of those numbers and I challenge you to name more than two of his receivers of any worth. I am an Elway homer and I still think Marino was as will be the GOAT so I guess I am one of the only... I doubt that...
                                GO BRONCOS AFC Champs!!!
                                sigpic

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