Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Can PFM still throw the deep ball?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Can PFM still throw the deep ball?

    With the recent addition of Sanders, will PFM be able to hit him say 30-40 yards down field without taking the chance of getting picked off??

    without a doubt ES is way faster than Decker is, but will this be any benefit to our receiving core if we only throw short / quick passes on the out or over the middle and hope our receivers break one like last year???

    this imo is why we got our butts handed to us in the SB as Seattle knew we could not throw the long ball and continued to play close to the LOS and clobbered our receivers as soon as they got heir hands on the ball.

    We must be able to keep the D off the LOS by throwing the deep pass!! anyone else see this as a potential problem this season?

  • #2
    It was more of a case of "Peyton never having the time to let routes develop with the tackles getting beat, mainly RT Franklin". Once the safeties laid out hits to begin with and Peyton was not getting the time to throw, Peyton never re-set his mental clock because Seattle would not let it happen. When he did get the deep route to throw, Peyton's arm was hit a tad early and a pick six happened.

    Besides, the OL could not even dominate a smaller DL in the run game department. Because they honed in on the shorter routes, they could keep one safety closer to the line of scrimmage thus aiding run support too.

    It all starts with the OL, IMO. It did not help that there was no defensive scoring with a lot of key defensive starters on IR. Field position could never be flipped. Heck, they generated ZERO turnovers in both the Chargers and Patriots games, and Peyton and the OL dominated time of possession and suppressed that weakness, IMO. So, once Peyton and the deck of cards that was the offense got owned, there was no Plan B with D or ST to assist.

    So, the long answer to your question is "yes, if his OL gives him time".

    Comment


    • #3
      Deep passes take time to setup, Seattle's d-line was on Manning the moment he snapped tha ball.

      Comment


      • #4
        I understand PM not having the time too throw due to the OL not holding up! but how you beat this quick pass rush is send WR to the post on go routes and hit them in stride, So I guess my question is can PM hit ES or DT on a long go/ post route, 3 step drop back and heave it to a sprinting receiver??

        Comment


        • #5
          This thread is awful.

          Comment


          • #6
            why? thought this is a honest question!

            Comment


            • #7
              I think PM was near the top last year in deep passes attempted and completed. I don't get the myth people continue to push that Manning is a conservative passer.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                bleacher report

                hmmmm, did you read this?http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-to-throw-deep

                Comment


                • #9
                  An article written by someone at bleacher report halfway through the season. Sorry, but I missed that one.

                  He was top 10 in completion percentage on deep passes and finished 3rd in the league in yards per attempt.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hawaiiiancrush View Post
                    I understand PM not having the time too throw due to the OL not holding up! but how you beat this quick pass rush is send WR to the post on go routes and hit them in stride, So I guess my question is can PM hit ES or DT on a long go/ post route, 3 step drop back and heave it to a sprinting receiver??
                    Absolutely wrong on so many levels.

                    The bolded parts above:

                    i) You negate the pass rush with 3 step drops, you got that part right but 3 step drop back and heave it to a sprinting receiver? Deep routes require deeper drops unless it is a blown coverage where the CB has passed the WR off to a safety thinking there is help and the WR is going scott free. Elite secondaries are too disciplined to do that.

                    Ever seen Brady go empty backfield vs Freeney and Mathis? I have. He used to get the ball released to his wideouts on the outside with quick slants / quick outs / comeback routes with a 2 or 3 step drop. You have to hold it for a few seconds for a post route to develop. You can throw the post all you want with a 3 step drop, chances are you will just be throwing it to no man's land with neither WR nor CB there. Arian's deep passing requires 5 to 7 step drops.

                    It takes a second or two against that physical-in-the-first-5-yards-with-LOTS-of-contact press coverage style the Seattle DBs play just to get any momentum going as a wideout. It is not like they are only physical and not fast. Earl Thomas has range in coverage and is speedy. Both Maxwell and Sherman have great recovery speed, so did Walter Thurmond III. So, you are NOT going to get a good clearance within the first 3 steps of your QB drop, I can bet you money on that. You can throw short and screen passes with that 3 step drop but not a post route unless it is a busted coverage or throwing a prayer you hope someone comes down with.

                    In order to hit them in stride, you have to have separation with clearance so that the DB who, if he is running step with step cannot high point the ball and throws to the sidelines to the outside shoulder still need some clearance against the taller DBs like Sherman. You accomplish the separation not by passing the ball right off the bat but with play action passes so that the CB slightly, just slightly bites on it and you hope your WR gets a free release because of that and completes the route.

                    The thing that milehighreport ran an article that I liked and that you Broncos fans should pay attention to is the comeback route. Emmanuel Sanders had an outstanding high percentage of catches in the comeback route due to his suddenness. So, contrary to people thinking he will blow the top off, what he can do like a Marvin Harrison is run those comeback routes by stopping on a dime and coming back. That ALSO can set up the double move. Double moves don't just happen, post routes don't just happen, they have to be set up with comeback routes and play action passing. DT's comeback routes can be better. Because he is so big, it takes time for that big body to build momentum and takes his body longer than a smaller wideout to do the comeback route. So, you will see his comeback routes involve him jumping and high pointing the ball instead of generating sudden separation on the comeback as much. But the sky is the limit for that guy as he evolves with Peyton, he is a treat to watch.
                    Last edited by chad72; 07-28-2014, 02:00 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      To "keep the D off the LOS" you have to make an attempt to run the ball- passing, any kind of passing won't keep the LBs and Dline from attempting penetration on every snap.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by chad72 View Post
                        Absolutely wrong on so many levels.

                        The bolded parts above:

                        i) You negate the pass rush with 3 step drops, you got that part right but 3 step drop back and heave it to a sprinting receiver? Deep routes require deeper drops unless it is a blown coverage where the CB has passed the WR off to a safety thinking there is help and the WR is going scott free. Elite secondaries are too disciplined to do that.

                        Ever seen Brady go empty backfield vs Freeney and Mathis? I have. He used to get the ball released to his wideouts on the outside with quick slants / quick outs / comeback routes with a 2 or 3 step drop. You have to hold it for a few seconds for a post route to develop. You can throw the post all you want with a 3 step drop, chances are you will just be throwing it to no man's land with neither WR nor CB there. Arian's deep passing requires 5 to 7 step drops.

                        It takes a second or two against that physical-in-the-first-5-yards-with-LOTS-of-contact press coverage style the Seattle DBs play just to get any momentum going as a wideout. It is not like they are only physical and not fast. Earl Thomas has range in coverage and is speedy. Both Maxwell and Sherman have great recovery speed, so did Walter Thurmond III. So, you are NOT going to get a good clearance within the first 3 steps of your QB drop, I can bet you money on that. You can throw short and screen passes with that 3 step drop but not a post route unless it is a busted coverage or throwing a prayer you hope someone comes down with.

                        In order to hit them in stride, you have to have separation with clearance so that the DB who, if he is running step with step cannot high point the ball and throws to the sidelines to the outside shoulder still need some clearance against the taller DBs like Sherman. You accomplish the separation not by passing the ball right off the bat but with play action passes so that the CB slightly, just slightly bites on it and you hope your WR gets a free release because of that and completes the route.

                        The thing that milehighreport ran an article that I liked and that you Broncos fans should pay attention to is the comeback route. Emmanuel Sanders had an outstanding high percentage of catches in the comeback route due to his suddenness. So, contrary to people thinking he will blow the top off, what he can do like a Marvin Harrison is run those comeback routes by stopping on a dime and coming back. That ALSO can set up the double move. Double moves don't just happen, post routes don't just happen, they have to be set up with comeback routes and play action passing. DT's comeback routes can be better. Because he is so big, it takes time for that big body to build momentum and takes his body longer than a smaller wideout to do the comeback route. So, you will see his comeback routes involve him jumping and high pointing the ball instead of generating sudden separation on the comeback as much. But the sky is the limit for that guy as he evolves with Peyton, he is a treat to watch.


                        Thank you for your well thought out response.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hawaiiiancrush View Post
                          Thank you for your well thought out response.
                          You're welcome.

                          I always wondered why with Harrison and Wayne, Peyton ran many more comeback routes while he did not do as much with DT and Decker in year 1, but more with DT in year 2 than Decker. Year 1, I still think he was regaining more of his arm strength and did not want to chance DBs jumping it as much.

                          The fade routes to the back of the pylon, short area low throws to Welker (whose center of gravity stays lower too helping him with those low balls), or seam routes that he starting use more in year 2 with JT and Welker together have been added.

                          What you Broncos fans should expect is more comeback routes with Sanders. But then, good DBs will take notice and start jumping, and that is when the double move should/will happen.

                          2 things will give the Broncos a slight edge the next time they play Seattle. They probably will run more 2 TE looks to run against that NASCAR Package with Virgil Green playing more. Next, with slot CB Walter Thurmond III leaving for the Jags, I expect Welker/JT to exploit the seams more. Most importantly, they will have no option to huddle up, slow it down and play the Seahawks patiently because the 12th man will not give them any other option .
                          Last edited by chad72; 07-28-2014, 02:17 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Seattle doesnt get many passes over the top of them b/c Earl Thomas has insane range.

                            And as others have said, it's hard to go deep when you have 2, maybe 3 seconds to throw.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I actually think the 2 TE look against Seattle is a pretty darn good idea. Keeps them out of that NASCAR package that they ran in the Super Bowl and should give us a chance for some good run blocking. Best way to shut up a crowd is march down the field early with both running and passing taking 5-10 minutes off the clock. Not easy to do against Seattle in Seattle but when you can it at least takes the crowd out a bit and demoralizes the defense. We did this throughout the playoffs where we didn't do the high flying offense but focused on running the ball. Not sure why all of a sudden Super Bowl we decided to change that up.

                              As for the deep ball Peyton is just fine with the deep ball. Sanders though as much as people like to think of him as our deep ball guy I don't think was brought in for that reason. His quick first step and separation ability work great for those quick slants and comebacks that Peyton loves to throw. Decker was at his worst when he had to fight off a defender and then try to cause separation. Sanders from what I have seen has the ability to beat that. If you remember correctly probably the WR that gave Seattle the most fits last year other than DT doing pretty well in the Super Bowl was that of TY Hilton (quick and fast receiver). I've watched him in that game and the guy was open quite a bit as they struggled to press him at the LOS so they even started playing off zone coverage on him and he still made them pay. I think that is what the Broncos are envisioning for Sanders.

                              Now really for the whole offense the Super Bowl just cannot be how you judge this offense. They were not the record breaking offense they were out of sheer luck. The Super Bowl they met up with a defense more prepared for the game and a hostile crowd that was unexpected. They got thrown off their game plan early and just never recovered. You have to remember we pretty much now have 3 different OL players, a new starting WR (plus Welker is actually healthy as I Don't think he ever was fully recovered last year from his concussions), and a new starting RB. This is year 2 or year 3 depending for almost all of these guys with Manning so should see a better jump in production. Mostly we just need the OL to show up much better than what they were. I watched someone break down the game and showed how if Manning and even half a second more on a lot of plays receivers were actually running to open field. Seattle took some major chances that they were going to get to Manning but if the OL holds up he would have lit them up big time.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X