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Is there a possibility of a marriage between Peyton's offense and Kubiak's?

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  • Is there a possibility of a marriage between Peyton's offense and Kubiak's?

    Hello all fellow posters. I just wanted to voice my concerns about how this season has progressed so far and ask a legitimate question (look at the thread title).

    Kubiak and Dennison insist on lining Manning up under center. So far this hasn't worked for either the running or passing game. I'll say this though, Kubiak's approach would be logical if the offensive line of the Bronco's was able to dictate a game or if C.J Anderson or Ronnie Hillman ran the ball effectively enough to make opposing defenses fear the run game. But (as has been the case the last two games) I don't think opposing defenses are wary of either the run or pass when Manning is under center. To my eyes, it looked like Baltimore and Kansas City teed off on Manning when he was under center as they played super aggressive to sack. It's clear when Manning lines up under center, neither the run or pass game is effective. I imagine Kubiak's system depends on an effective run game to be able to keep defenses honest which in turn opens play calling to west coast dunk passes with efficient yards after the catch. The problem is, when Manning lines up under center opposing defensive coordinators aren't concerned about running. So, instead of Kubiak's offense working fluidly the offense struggles with 2 yards gains and Manning is asked to convert long 3'rd down conversions.

    If there is a possibility of a marriage between Manning's preferred offense (shotgun) and Kubiak's offense (as described in the previous paragraph), I think it would be this. When Manning lined up in shotgun in a tight 3 w.r, 1 r.b formation the Bronco's ran well, passed well, and even threw in trick plays (reverses to Emmanuel Sanders). I'm just a couch potato coach, but maybe the Bronco's should run the spread and mix in the tight shotgun formations.. I say this because when Manning lines 5 yards deep, the opposing team is wary of passes. Manning see's this, reads the defense and audibles to another "OMAHA" play. Whatever the hell "Omaha" means.

    In short, I'm saying maybe instead of the running game dictating a game to open opportunities for the passing game. Maybe the Broncos should utilize a dictating passing game to open opportunities for the rushing game. Just my thoughts.

    Please respond, I've tried having this conversation with Bronco fans in my day-to-day life (and bless their hearts) they either don't know enough about football to follow me or they believe Manning for some magical reason looks bad and great in the same game without considering the formations he is operating. All feedback is appreciated.

  • #2
    A lot of it depends on CJ Anderson and Ty Sambraillo IMO. CJ needs to figure out how to plant and go on zone runs, Hillman has been more effective by far on zone runs. CJ looks good when there's someone pulling and leading him through the hole. Either he hasn't learned how to read his blockers or he isn't trusting his vision on zone plays, but he's looking indecisive as he approaches the hole.

    Ty on the other hand is a harder fix but it goes hand and hand with the run game getting going. He doesn't enough strength to anchor down when pass rushers bull rush, he's compensating by lunging out at the pass rusher which is causing him to get beat by everything. A better running game will result in pass rushers being less aggressive which should help him out. Keeping virgil on his side would help as well.

    I thought we'd see more of the under center plays converted to pistol plays honestly. There has been a few sprinkled in here and there but not enough IMO.

    Other than it's just experience and cohesion on the oline. No one on the oline has played next to each other before. Our tackles are concerning though. Harris looks like a shell of what he was his first stint here, hopefully Schofield takes over soon. Sambrailo can't be fixed though, he just needs help on his side and time in the weight room.

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    • #3
      The pistol formation seems like the best middle ground. But really the only way to help out this offense is to get the offensive line playing better and to get the run game going. The Kubiak offense is predicated on these two things, first and foremost and they're easily the two weakest points on offense currently.
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      • #4
        I'm honest enough to admit I don't know where the hell Sambraillo lines up on the offensive line. Offensive linemen are often the unsung heroes of a game (unsung villains as well). Where does Ty line up? I'm guessing the inside. Say Ty is the problem, is there a solution? Is his backup better suited? Maybe a shift in offensive line positions? Please enlighten me.

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        • #5
          Actually the biggest mess on the offensive line, surprisingly enough, is Mathis.
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          • #6
            I looked up the pistol formation, and while I do like how the qb is positioned deep behind center I think Manning operates better when the r.b is to his side rather than behind him. The pistol formation (i googled a quick x's and o's image) doesn't allow Peyton to constantly keep his eyes up field whether passing or handing the ball of. To my eyes, a pistol with a r.b to his side would help to add a blocker or run a cut-back or straight a ahead run (while also having Thomas, Sanders, Latimer, and Daniels as legitimate downfield threats). Additionally, a r.b behind Peyton might telegraph a run depending on how either C.J or Ronnie react after a snap. Just my thoughts. Thanks for your replies. I love being able to have a decent conversation about the Broncos.

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            • #7
              Mojo, you know more about the offensive line than i do (i don't know if that is saying much though) so I ask you this question. Is there a fix to this problem? Does the o-line gel better with time? Can we still sign free-agents? Are the backups better than Mathis or Ty? I ask only because I think this offensive line is the real weak link to the team. Granted the Bronco's have only played two games, and the two games were against stout defenses.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by justabroncosfan View Post
                Mojo, you know more about the offensive line than i do (i don't know if that is saying much though) so I ask you this question. Is there a fix to this problem? Does the o-line gel better with time? Can we still sign free-agents? Are the backups better than Mathis or Ty? I ask only because I think this offensive line is the real weak link to the team. Granted the Bronco's have only played two games, and the two games were against stout defenses.
                I'm by no means an expert. What I know is what I see and what I read/hear from experts such as Mark Schlereth and other former players who have commented on it.

                It's a very young, inexperienced offensive line that is being asked to play in a system in zone blocking that requires a lot of thinking and skill. It also requires the running back to be able to know where the gaps will be at all times, which our backs haven't been able to demonstrate so far (although Hillman has had better success than Anderson). My feeling tells me to put back in Max Garcia anywhere you can (preferably Guard since that appears to be the weakest point on the line), and just give them time to gel. There's no quick, easy fix that will steer this back on course right away. If it does begin to work, it probably won't be until after the bye week.
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                • #9
                  I honestly don't think a marriage is possible. First, Peyton has certain physical limitations. He is immobile and lacks the ability to bootleg effectively. Second, he is obviously much more comfortable in the shotgun. Of course, it is not all on him. Our O-line is atrocious. We sure as hell can't operate Kubiak's system if we can't run the ball. The line will get better, but how much? I think Kubiak will eventually acquiesce to Manning's system because we honestly can't score any other way.

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                  • #10
                    thank you for your reply mojo. I would agree fixing an offensive line is not a quick fix. Max Garcia, I'll have to look him up. But until then, do you think certain formations might alleviate the learning curve of the Bronco's young offensive line until they gel?

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                    • #11
                      Gerontion, i agree with your statement that we can't score unless we run Manning's preferred offense. But, a part of me wonders how much power Kubiak and Dennison wield in the play calling/game stategy. I am worried if the Bronco's try to run Kubiak's system and then resort to Manning running a hurry up offense when the Broncos are down or need a score. I'm pining for a game in which the Bronco's dictate a game and force the opposing team to change strategies rather than the other way around.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                        Actually the biggest mess on the offensive line, surprisingly enough, is Mathis.
                        I think a lot of his problems stem from the inexperience around him. Paradis is playing well but teams are testing him by overloading the middle. And with Ty struggling next to Mathis there's only so much he can do to help. With the ways teams have been overloading the middle, it's leaving our tackles on an island while our RB has to pick up a free blitzer. It also tests Mannings mobility/release (and the receivers as they have to get separation quickly) as they have simply been bringing more people than we have in to block.

                        Personally I think the interior will be fine and only get better. I'm very concerned about our OTs though. Green can help out big time, preferably Ty. Harris has got to step it up though(no excuse for him IMO), or Schofield needs to show something in practice and take over the starting RT spot.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by justabroncosfan View Post
                          I looked up the pistol formation, and while I do like how the qb is positioned deep behind center I think Manning operates better when the r.b is to his side rather than behind him. The pistol formation (i googled a quick x's and o's image) doesn't allow Peyton to constantly keep his eyes up field whether passing or handing the ball of. To my eyes, a pistol with a r.b to his side would help to add a blocker or run a cut-back or straight a ahead run (while also having Thomas, Sanders, Latimer, and Daniels as legitimate downfield threats). Additionally, a r.b behind Peyton might telegraph a run depending on how either C.J or Ronnie react after a snap. Just my thoughts. Thanks for your replies. I love being able to have a decent conversation about the Broncos.
                          I prefer the pistol to being under center with a QB like Manning. It gives him a little extra space and time to read the defense on play action plays as opposed to doing it from under center. It also gets the ball to the RB quicker and the RB gets to build some steam before he gets the ball as opposed to the shotgun.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by justabroncosfan View Post
                            Gerontion, i agree with your statement that we can't score unless we run Manning's preferred offense. But, a part of me wonders how much power Kubiak and Dennison wield in the play calling/game stategy. I am worried if the Bronco's try to run Kubiak's system and then resort to Manning running a hurry up offense when the Broncos are down or need a score. I'm pining for a game in which the Bronco's dictate a game and force the opposing team to change strategies rather than the other way around.
                            I think Kubiak certainly has much more authority in calling plays than Fox or Gase did last year. Elway wanted an offense that was tougher and more likely to succeed in the postseason, thus the new coach. That being said, Kubiak is not the type to keep forcing a square peg into a round hole. I think he will try to keep the run game going but will allow Manning to be Manning when it is necessary.

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                            • #15
                              Beastly, i agree with everything you've stated. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I'll ask anyways. Is there a pistol formation in which the rb lines up to the side of the qb versus behind the qb. I think with Manning, it makes a big difference where the rb is lined up. If the rb is behind Peyton, Peyton looks a bit awkward handing the ball of behind him versus to the side. Plus a rb to his side would be better suited to pick up blocking assignments.

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