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what did willie mcginest say?

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  • #61
    No more Manning please....he got carried to both his superbowls, let him retite in my opinion as the most overrated qb of all time, next to favre and terry bradshaw. He almost cost us the superbowl and left 20 points on the field

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    • #62
      if a 39 yr old QB who throws for 143 and gets a ring... that should be the answer... how many D does Elway have to sign?
      heck Tebow could get a ring... the formula that Fox and Elway could not agree on to get us over the hump has been discovered... and its not 55TD passes... its our legion of boom... our D...

      you can find a decent team manager for 10 mil or less... Brian Griese, Kyle Orton would have won with this D....

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      • #63
        Maybe 10 million is too much for a QB with 7 starts. To be more accurate though, 7 starts, 4 years learning from a HoF two-time Superbowl winning legend, 4 years of knowing the organisation, the staff, the offense, the coaches, and his teammates...

        and by all accounts a well-liked member of the team who people speak highly of, and handles himself well both on the field, and off it.

        I hope Elway can hammer out a deal with Osweiler. There's more upside to him than just the raw statistic of the 7 starts... 7 starts behind a dodgy offensive line too. Not much protection for the kid, who stood in there under pressure and contributed greatly to clinching 1st seed, home field advantage, and at the end of it all Superbowl No3.

        I hope we are at the start of the Osweiler era, I hope he becomes the long-term face of the franchise, and I hope he develops into a fine QB.
        Renfrewshire Scotland - Colorado USA

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        • #64
          if a 39 yr old QB who throws for 143 and gets a ring... that should be the answer... how many D does Elway have to sign?
          heck Tebow could get a ring... the formula that Fox and Elway could not agree on to get us over the hump has been discovered... and its not 55TD passes... its our legion of boom... our D...

          you can find a decent team manager for 10 mil or less... Brian Griese, Kyle Orton would have won with this D....
          Amen......

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          • #65
            Originally posted by cmc0605 View Post
            I don't agree with you. There's different types of mobility.

            Usually, when people speak of QB mobility they are envisioning Russell Wilson or Mike Vick, guys who make and extend plays with their legs, or who routinely throw on the run and can do so outside the pocket consistently. Certainly, Brock cannot do that as a routine part of his game. At most, you get a handful of seven yard runs up the middle if there's a lane to run in.

            Putting aside all the other reasons people had, some people thought Brock would be the better option this year because his "mobility" would help mask a very bad o-line by extending plays, but of course that was a confused argument...what we needed was a QB who could shorten plays with quick decisions-- we did not have a QB on our roster who could "extend plays" in the way people were thinking.

            But "mobility" in Kubiak's system means something else. The mobility in this sense is not about when plays break down, or even running very much. It's about "mobility by design" for bootlegs, rollouts, play action fakes, and just enough threat to run that you actually force the defense to contain the backside of runs instead of over-pursuing to one side...that in principle should make one defender in the box irrelevant

            Certainly, I think Brock is mobile enough to run what Kubiak wants. It's not like Flacco or Schuab were that mobile. Even Peyton could boot and was almost at that level of mobility, but they are both statues for the purposes of pocket throwing.

            The one area Brock needs to improve at with respect to "extending the play" is stepping up in the pocket. Those 1-2 seconds are critical for a vertical passing game and for the success of any pocket passer. This year, Brock tended to stand still or drift a bit side to side and made it even more difficult on the already-struggling tackles.

            Having said that, I still don't think Kubiak's system is right for Brock. He has a big arm and can throw darts in that intermediate range (say 8-20 yards) rather consistently, and he is poised in the pocket. I don't think he executes the horizontal game very well. But I do agree with McGinest that he can run the system and that there's tons of value in just the mere fact that he does not need to be developed in the system or in NFL life in the way a rookie does.
            Great post. I appreciate how you talked about the differences between the two types of mobility. Made a lot of sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to write this.

            Originally posted by rst08tierney View Post
            Brock is worth 7-10, 10 being MAX. If hes interested in being a repeat champion but this time at the helm he will need to ride that defense and the defense needs every dollar possible to retain that talent.

            If he is selfless here and takes a "small check", his pay day will be greater down the road
            Agree with this as well. I would hope that Brock would consider more things than money in this decision. I guess that might be easier for me to say. However, in my mind there are more things to consider...the type of team you have surrounding you, the type of organization you are in, whether the team is a legitimate contender to make the playoffs and has a shot to win a SB, etc.

            Brock has a powerhouse of a team around him. He has the #1 defense and I'm sure Elway will do everything he can to keep as many pieces so the defense remains as such, he has outstanding WRs in Thomas and Sanders (yes, Thomas will get his act in gear), and Elway will fix the Oline issues through the draft and FA.

            Chasing the money, which is his right, but landing on a team that might be a bottom dweller for years, such as CLE, BUF or any of those types of teams might not be as appealing. So, we will see what is more important to him.

            I hope he stays. But on another note, the amount of money these guys make compared to the rest of the world is almost obscene to me.
            Last edited by broncoslover115; 02-19-2016, 03:44 AM.
            Adopted Bronco: DeMarcus Ware

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
              Even $10 million is way too high for his actual resume, 7 games is a small sample size, even Matt Cassel played well for 15 games. I'm thinking that Osweiler is going to get a massive pay day, and people on here will freak out that the Broncos didn't pay it, but based on what he's done so far, it's the right call.
              I don't think 10 is too high for Brock. The cap space if being raised again this year, I don't know exactly what the amount is but every team has to use 95% of the cap space available to them. We have seen enough out of Brock to know that we can win with him. If you give him an entire offseason to work with his recievers there is no question that he improves. Imo.....pay the man

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                I agree he probably got a few decent reps, and going against the league's best defense will help make a player better. But you and I both know, a scout team is expected to give a certain look. It's all about "run this play, on this play the QB will look here or there, that's where the ball needs to go." So he wouldn't have gotten a lot of great reps where he gets to scan the D pre snap, read how the defense is lining up and then after the snap, read the D and get the ball where it's supposed to go. Scout team is all about giving looks and to a degree feeding egos.

                I've got a firm belief that a scout team is a great place for a player to develop and get noticed, except for QBs and WRs. Those 2 positions have to basically do exactly what the other team does, and just run what's drawn up on the card. Whereas for other players, especially the defense, you may have to line up differently and you may give a different look every now and then, but really you're just playing football. A cover 3 drop is a cover 3 drop, a LB covering the back as he releases on a pass route is the same as it would be anywhere else, you're just doing what comes naturally.

                Probably the single biggest benefit Siemian got from the scout team this year (aside from going against the number 1 D) is that it gave him a lot of reps taking snaps from under centre and working not he footwork of taking drops and looking downfield as he does that. He didn't do that much in collagen the spread system, so doing that here would be a good learning tool. Actually I'm changing my mind a little bit, if he got those reps doing that and maximized it, really focusing on getting better at those things, it could have been a good year for his development. I still don't think he's ready to start, but if he can get those two things down, it gives him a much better chance of competing for the backup spot in 2016.
                Right. I doubt if Trevor Siemian was drafted to be anything more than a backup QB just as Gary Kubiak was. Denver saw a smart guy with a good arm coming off an injury and they spent a 7th round pick to see how he was. IIRC Greg Knapp was sent to scout him.

                We'll find out what Denver's coaching staff thinks about Trevor during free agency and the draft. One might reasonably assume that if Osweiler is re-signed, the Broncos will want an experienced QB to be the game day backup. I think that's where all the RG3 talk originated. In that scenario, Trevor might still be running scout team. Anything more could be considered icing on the cake.
                "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by snewguy View Post
                  if a 39 yr old QB who throws for 143 and gets a ring... that should be the answer... how many D does Elway have to sign?
                  heck Tebow could get a ring... the formula that Fox and Elway could not agree on to get us over the hump has been discovered... and its not 55TD passes... its our legion of boom... our D...

                  you can find a decent team manager for 10 mil or less... Brian Griese, Kyle Orton would have won with this D....
                  Let's not get carried away, here.

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                  • #69
                    QB is the most important position on the field. It was a magical year that ended with a SB, but I don't think counting on your D to get you turnovers in the openents end of the field in order to win the game is a great plan for long term success. Having a great D sure is a great start, but the offense needs to be able to contribute and help put games away when the D is in control. This team is going to run Kubes offense and needs a qb who fits it and can run it. I think Oz does and will. He has experience in it and showed that he can play. We will see what the coaches and FO think very soon. I personally don't think he will be playing for 10 million or under, I think he will be more in the range of 12-15 mil. We have invested in him and trained him from day one. I personally hope that investment starts paying off now. It would be nice if we could get him for less, but my guess is if you are a team that is paying your qb under 10 mil a year and its not on his rookie contract, you are probably a team that is still looking for a qb. We had a lot of success this year with our D , but imo that does not mean qb is not the most important position on the team. It still is and it can still make a huge difference one way or the other.
                    My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Atwnbroncfan View Post
                      He earned 20 million over 3 years. 9 million guaranteed. Basically he earned 9 with the chance to get 20.
                      I'd be open to that sort of a deal. Performance escalators. X mil for winning X number of games. X million for making it to the play-offs and x dollars for both winning the afcCG & Sb....I can get there.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post
                        Let's not get carried away, here.
                        Orton would have pooped his pants and handed Mack over the ball after the first hit....

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                        • #72
                          Dude... I feel like Brock's contract discussion is pretty easily resolved. Make it largely incentive-based. I understand that an athlete wants gauranteed money, but do something like this:

                          8 mil/y for 3 years. All guaranteed. (24 mil)

                          1 mil bonus for making playoffs, 2 mil for winning AFCCG (or 1 mil additional $ for each playoff win), 5 mil for winning SB. That bonus is in place every year.

                          He has a good chance of making minimally 9 mil a year, upside 15 mil if he brings home a championship... put in a clause that he can re-negotiate if they win another SB.
                          Last edited by Joshua2585; 02-19-2016, 09:09 AM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by haciendadad View Post
                            As far as mobility, Brock was scouted by Gonzaga for basketball, so I think his mobility is at least good enough to be in the top 5 rushing QBs if Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers can be in that group. Brock doesn't need to drag 3 defenders and weight 260lbs to be a good mobile QB, just enough to roll out when the pressure calls for that or a run to make the first down to keep the drive alive.
                            Well...I didn't see him keep too many drives alive with his feet. He doesn't seem to have the pocket awareness or the aggressiveness as a runner that Alex Smith has, so I would say there is no evidence whatsoever that he will be a top 5 rushing QB. This mobility talking point is getting silly.

                            Originally posted by haciendadad View Post
                            Finally, $15M may not be the new $10M, but it isn't that far off, especially when the salary cap keeps on getting increased. Next year it increases to $155M which is a $12M increase, so why throw away a good fit talent for a difference of a couple of million. If we need to, Elway can always ask for Brock to do a deal like he asked Peyton after the first two years.
                            Yes...the cap is going up, and so will the price of more proven players on the team. Guys like Trevathan, Marshall, and obviously Von Miller. I am honestly more on board with the idea of signing a retread veteran than giving Osweiler 15 mill. Anything above 12 mill is a too much at this point IMO.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by haciendadad View Post
                              Even if they are on the team there is no guarantee they won't get hurt or suspended like Von's 6 game suspension 2 years ago or Clady's perpetual injuries. Add a mediocre QB and what will you have? Most likely a team that misses the playoffs.
                              And yet you want to hand a mediocre QB 15 million?

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Jason Sitoke View Post
                                And yet you want to hand a mediocre QB 15 million?
                                Not as a base salary but sure why not if the other 5 were based on performance escalators?

                                1 Mil if you get the team to more than 12 wins
                                2 Mil if you win the AFCCG
                                2 Mil if you win the SB.

                                So sure why not have a 10 mil base or a 9 mil base with performance bonuses...

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