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  • Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
    Yup the Broncos want their first round pick that they traded up to be successful.
    I never use this name, but getting Tebow flashbacks. Who cares where a guy was drafted or that he was traded up for. Need this offense to click now with the defense we have in place. Lynch needs to be better, not close, but better than the next guy to get the keys to the O...just my 2 cents.
    Ravens GM 2016 - Ravens are looking to trade down 4-8 spots

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    • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
      That completely ignores the most important difference between Siemian and Lynch. And that is on the field "experience". As to "natural ability and skills", I would suggest that Lynch's poor mechanics completely neutralizes any advantage he has over Siemian from an athletic point of view. And with Siemian being another year past his ACL surgery, I expect his natural athleticism to be more evident moving forward.

      From what I'm hearing, the McCoy offense is likely to utilize the "up-tempo" style that requires QBs to have knowledge, experience, and be able to think on their feet by calling plays at the line of scrimmage. If McCoy and Musgrave can get Lynch up to speed doing those things, then we might see a competition. But, in my opinion, it's close to 95% certain that Lynch won't be able to step up. Just my opinion from watching the Broncos since becoming a Bronco fan in 1968, and my opinion only. Should be fun to watch.
      First off I'm making the assumption that the reason Lynch is working with his own QB coach right now is to work on his mechanics. So I'm going that being less of or a non factor as the offseason progresses.

      As for on the field experience, that's an advantage to a point, but it only goes so far. At some point talent shines through. If on the field experience made up for everything you would never see a rookie QB or young QB beat out someone with that experience. But one just needs to look to 2016 when Siemian beat out Sanchez to know that's not a huge factor. Unless you believe Siemian's one kneel down snap in 2015 was all he needed?

      If they're truly going uptempo no huddle (just a rumour since McCoy has run offenses that are both no huddle and offenses that huddle) it probably works to Lynch's advantage, because it does away with long winded play calls and goes to hand signals and key word play calls which was what he did in college.

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      • Originally posted by TheAsianPA View Post
        If McCoy makes this offense Tebow-simple, won't that be easy for any Defensive coordinator to find a counter to?
        It's not going to be that offense, not by a long shot. What will be simplified is the way plays are called, not the plays that are run. And if Tebow was even just a capable passer (he was not) that offense would have been pretty deadly. Both QBs in Denver right now are better passers than Tebow, so teams will actually have to worry about the pass, so it's not as easy to defend as that was. And having said that, the Broncos were the number 1 rushing O that year despite everyone knowing they were going to do that.

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        • Originally posted by TheAsianPA View Post
          If McCoy makes this offense Tebow-simple, won't that be easy for any Defensive coordinator to find a counter to?
          People have a misunderstanding of the "simplification" of the Tebow offense.

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          • Originally posted by TheAsianPA View Post
            If McCoy makes this offense Tebow-simple, won't that be easy for any Defensive coordinator to find a counter to?
            That certainly is my thinking. I will give credit to McCoy for changing the offense in the middle of the season to suit Tebow. But, didn't the regular season end with 3 straight losses after opposing DCs figured things out? It just means that our Defense has to be that much better when we play a team like New England.

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            • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
              First off I'm making the assumption that the reason Lynch is working with his own QB coach right now is to work on his mechanics. So I'm going that being less of or a non factor as the offseason progresses.

              As for on the field experience, that's an advantage to a point, but it only goes so far. At some point talent shines through. If on the field experience made up for everything you would never see a rookie QB or young QB beat out someone with that experience. But one just needs to look to 2016 when Siemian beat out Sanchez to know that's not a huge factor. Unless you believe Siemian's one kneel down snap in 2015 was all he needed?

              If they're truly going uptempo no huddle (just a rumour since McCoy has run offenses that are both no huddle and offenses that huddle) it probably works to Lynch's advantage, because it does away with long winded play calls and goes to hand signals and key word play calls which was what he did in college.
              Considering that Lynch is working with the same guy that he worked with before the Combine, last year, I don't have a lot of confidence that it will help. And we all saw it before with Tebow. Tebow attempted to change his throwing motion, only to revert to his old, more natural way of throwing. That's probably a stretch of an example because I think Paxton Lynch has much better technique. Just an example.

              Where I disagree is in the "balance" equation. I don't believe that Lynch's advantages in "talent" comes anywhere near Siemian's advantage in "football smarts" and experience. And, the Siemian that I saw last season has good athletic ability and an NFL arm. In fact, I believe he looked better than Osweiler, in Siemian's rookie season. We may have to agree to disagree on that.

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              • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                That certainly is my thinking. I will give credit to McCoy for changing the offense in the middle of the season to suit Tebow. But, didn't the regular season end with 3 straight losses after opposing DCs figured things out? It just means that our Defense has to be that much better when we play a team like New England.
                Simplifying doesn't mean making it an all run or an all pass offense. It means making it easier to learn and understand. West Coast Offenses (which the Shanahan/Kubiak O is an offshoot of) is known for being wordy and play calls will have everything involved, from formation to pass pro to motions, to pass play to pass pattern by the backs. So you can have plays with 15 to 16 words in the play call. That's pretty complicated. Now if we compare that to an Air Coryell style offense (which is similar to what McCoy has been running) it becomes much less wordy and streamlined. And then if you do go uptempo no huddle it becomes even simpler because you split things, you call the formation and then as people are lining up you'll call the play using keywords (with a fake or two thrown in) and hand signals.

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                • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                  Considering that Lynch is working with the same guy that he worked with before the Combine, last year, I don't have a lot of confidence that it will help. And we all saw it before with Tebow. Tebow attempted to change his throwing motion, only to revert to his old, more natural way of throwing. That's probably a stretch of an example because I think Paxton Lynch has much better technique. Just an example.

                  Where I disagree is in the "balance" equation. I don't believe that Lynch's advantages in "talent" comes anywhere near Siemian's advantage in "football smarts" and experience. And, the Siemian that I saw last season has good athletic ability and an NFL arm. In fact, I believe he looked better than Osweiler, in Siemian's rookie season. We may have to agree to disagree on that.

                  Whether you or I have confidence in Lynch, or Siemian, and how we view them won't matter in the end. It'll be up to the coaches, and there's a reason they said it was an open competition and not that Siemian was the starter going into the offseason. That was the easy answer, but saying it's an open competition does say a lot about the views of the organization.

                  However it'll be up to the players, the best player will play, so they both need to go prove they're that guy.

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                  • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                    He wasn't ready at that point, but players learn, players mature, players get better in the offseason. Thinking that he's not ready now because of what happened then is crazy.

                    The offense will be different but it won't be "dumbed down" as some claim, but say it's dumbed down and both grasp the offense the same, then the likelihood is that Lynch wins the competition and it's not even close, the reason being it will come down to natural ability and skills. The biggest advantages Siemian had on Lynch this year were that he had been in the league for a year and knew the system. Now Lynch will also have been in the league for a year and will understand the speed. With the offense changing, and assuming it's "dumbed down" where's Siemian's advantage?

                    If Lynch puts in the work this offseason he wins this competition.
                    Siemian will be able to (allegedly) digest the offense quicker, meaning learning the ins and out, why this and why that. Why this in is cut at 7 on this play and the out is at 5 on this play. He's shown he can spin the ball and his (and lynch's) footwork got better and better. He had good metrics when the game was close and didn't seem to get flustered by everything falling apart around him. The players respect him and like him. They stood up for him (because he was the starter, imo, but just the same)

                    Uptempo offenses require the QBs to have a firm grasp of the offense, what, with dealing with two play calls sent in on this key and this read, etc. I think Siemian would have a leg up there too.

                    As our favorite first round pick said, "hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard".

                    Lynch can get there, I don't think he's ready in 2017. As early as 2 months ago he was throwing cross legged, throwing off his back feet, tripping over his linemen, overthrowing or underthrowing everything. We shall see.

                    I'm personally hoping for Romo because you're not gonna win the SB in the next two years with Siemian or Lynch, no matter what they do on offense.
                    sigpic

                    Hooray, beer!

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                    • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                      Whether you or I have confidence in Lynch, or Siemian, and how we view them won't matter in the end. It'll be up to the coaches, and there's a reason they said it was an open competition and not that Siemian was the starter going into the offseason. That was the easy answer, but saying it's an open competition does say a lot about the views of the organization.

                      However it'll be up to the players, the best player will play, so they both need to go prove they're that guy.
                      All it means to me is that we have a new Head Coach, a new OC, and a new QB coach, who have never worked with either QB, who want to come in here and see for themselves what we've got in a fair competition. If people want to read into it that this is somehow a move to get Siemian out as the starter and hand the starting job to Lynch, that's up to them.

                      If it were Peyton Manning instead of a QB who is coming off his 1st season as a Starter, then maybe I would agree. I take Vance Joseph at his word that this is going to be an "Open" competition, and that Lynch will have the same chance of winning the job as Siemian.

                      I'm simply voicing my opinion that without a "Miracle" it's going to be Siemian. That's all.

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                      • Just hope that whoever is the best person to win will do so. But I like Trevor S. Give Paxton one more year to learn the system.
                        Ready for October Falls

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                        • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                          All it means to me is that we have a new Head Coach, a new OC, and a new QB coach, who have never worked with either QB, who want to come in here and see for themselves what we've got in a fair competition. If people want to read into it that this is somehow a move to get Siemian out as the starter and hand the starting job to Lynch, that's up to them.

                          If it were Peyton Manning instead of a QB who is coming off his 1st season as a Starter, then maybe I would agree. I take Vance Joseph at his word that this is going to be an "Open" competition, and that Lynch will have the same chance of winning the job as Siemian.

                          I'm simply voicing my opinion that without a "Miracle" it's going to be Siemian. That's all.
                          Agreed. (10 char.)

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                          • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                            It's not going to be that offense, not by a long shot. What will be simplified is the way plays are called, not the plays that are run. And if Tebow was even just a capable passer (he was not) that offense would have been pretty deadly. Both QBs in Denver right now are better passers than Tebow, so teams will actually have to worry about the pass, so it's not as easy to defend as that was. And having said that, the Broncos were the number 1 rushing O that year despite everyone knowing they were going to do that.
                            New Offensive Coordinator, QB Coach, O-Line coaches and TE coach. Four of those guys have been NFL OCs. They will try to install a balanced attack. Elway will try to get them what they need. It will be interesting to see it unfold.
                            "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                            • Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
                              Siemian will be able to (allegedly) digest the offense quicker, meaning learning the ins and out, why this and why that. Why this in is cut at 7 on this play and the out is at 5 on this play. He's shown he can spin the ball and his (and lynch's) footwork got better and better. He had good metrics when the game was close and didn't seem to get flustered by everything falling apart around him. The players respect him and like him. They stood up for him (because he was the starter, imo, but just the same)

                              Uptempo offenses require the QBs to have a firm grasp of the offense, what, with dealing with two play calls sent in on this key and this read, etc. I think Siemian would have a leg up there too.

                              As our favorite first round pick said, "hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard".

                              Lynch can get there, I don't think he's ready in 2017. As early as 2 months ago he was throwing cross legged, throwing off his back feet, tripping over his linemen, overthrowing or underthrowing everything. We shall see.

                              I'm personally hoping for Romo because you're not gonna win the SB in the next two years with Siemian or Lynch, no matter what they do on offense.
                              I guess we'll see, but I'm not convinced Siemian learns the offense faster. Now that Lynch has learned an NFL offense (a wordy one at that) and knows what it's like, it should be easier for him to learn a second one. The cuts at 5 or 7 will actually change depending on the defense, so the key is learning to diagnose a defense and realizing what the defender is doing and understanding how the receiver is going to react to that.

                              A lot of times when you see a QB throw the ball and the defender is just standing there to intercept it with no offensive player in sight, it's because the QB and receiver read different things.

                              I honestly don't care which QB it is, as long as the battle is won because that QB is excelling not because he won it by default. But I just think everyone who keeps saying Lynch was bad this year so he's years away will be shocked at the big steps he takes this offseason. He's still going to make mistakes in camp and preseason games, and if he plays regular season games, but you're gonna see him noticeably better in a lot of different areas and trending up.

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                              • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                                All it means to me is that we have a new Head Coach, a new OC, and a new QB coach, who have never worked with either QB, who want to come in here and see for themselves what we've got in a fair competition. If people want to read into it that this is somehow a move to get Siemian out as the starter and hand the starting job to Lynch, that's up to them.

                                If it were Peyton Manning instead of a QB who is coming off his 1st season as a Starter, then maybe I would agree. I take Vance Joseph at his word that this is going to be an "Open" competition, and that Lynch will have the same chance of winning the job as Siemian.

                                I'm simply voicing my opinion that without a "Miracle" it's going to be Siemian. That's all.

                                Fair enough, I just think a "miracle" in this case will be experience in learning an NFL playbook and hard work. The biggest advantage the team and Lynch himself have right now compared to last year is that they know all of the areas he needs to get better in. They know how they have to teach him the playbook, they know what he needs to do footwork wise etc. So knowing that they can taper his offseason program to improve those things. Same with Siemian, he's faced a lot more live bullets, they've got the game tape, they can see and know exactly where he needs to get better. I hope that both QBs get significantly better this offseason (and I think both will) and I hope that the QB competition extends on into camp because both players are doing things so well that it makes it hard on the coaches to decide, rather than last year where it was about who can they trust the most to make the fewest mistakes.

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