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The Mythical "Athletic QB"

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  • #16
    Anyone else remember Shanahan doing the QB draw from a 5 WR set at around the 3-7 yard line 5 or 6 times a year?

    Mobility is just one more weapon in the arsenal. As long as the QB avoids taking hard shots and injuries, it just makes them a more dangerous QB to the defense.

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    • #17
      I think there are 2 qualities that are really important in the NFL: release quickness and pocket quickness. Downfield running ability is nice, but only if release and pocket quickness are there. Otherwise, they're a running back (Tebow). Release quickness is partly physical, but mostly mental - can the QB quickly diagnose the defense and find the optimal target? Peyton and Brady turned that into an art and can get away with lesser pocket quickness. For other athletic QB's, it's their downfall - think Jeff George and Cutler. Pocket quickness is about feel and shiftiness to extend plays, not necessarily tuck and run. Elway was great at this, Rogers and Cam obviously, Wilson too, though he tends to run it more often. The caution is a QB with pocket quickness won't be great if he can't also release quickly. That's just an athletic guy who runs around while missing the play. I'd put Lynch of last year in that category (not permanently I hope, but you often see rookies rely on athleticism because the mental part isn't developed yet).

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
        Steve Young and John Elway were both running QBs, both are in the HOF. Rich Gannon ran for 529 yards in 2000 in Oakland, 231 in 2001 and 156 in 2002. This year was Russell Wilson's lowest rushing total at 259 yards (due to injury), the year the Seahawks won the Super Bowl he rushed for 849 yards. In Aaron Rodgers years as a starter he's failed to eclipse 200 yards rushing only once.

        Teams should stay away from QBs with nothing but their legs, but I fail to see how any of the issues with "athletic QBs" as you originally put it, and now running QBs, as it's been changed to.

        It's great to have a pocket QB, but you need someone with athleticism to keep plays alive, and having a QB who can also scramble and pick up yards when needed is a very good thing to have. If you have a mobile QB thee defense has to account for them, if you don't then they don't and they've got the numbers advantage.

        I don't want a QB who runs QB Power 5 times a game (or even 5 times a season) but I do want a QB who can move and gain yards. And I know you've tended to prefer Siemian, and this thread was probably intended to be a pick Siemian over Lynch thread (if it's not I apologize and stand corrected) but in talking about athletic QBs and how the Broncos don't need that you're discounting the athleticism that Siemian does have, and showed a little bit of early in the season.
        I like the discussion about these QBs. I agree with the consensus that we all want a QB that can escape and/or extend a play when necessary. I also agree that the running can be too much of a good thing.

        Yes, I am a Siemian supporter. As you noted I saw a lot of good things in the beginning of the season, enough to be impressed. I held my opinion on Lynch until he got his chances. Even though he had some problems, I didn't see the tangibles that I saw in Siemian's play. I'm sure the offseason these two will (should) be closer, especially if Siemian has to rehab his shoulder for up to six months total. So, why did I make this thread? When I hear discussions about these two QBs many say they would rather have Lynch because he has a higher ceiling and they call out his athleticism and that is what I don't get. If this was last Summer, I'd probably agree because I didn't even know anything about Siemian. I will still give Lynch a chance to develop through next season; funny thing is that I was super excited when we draft Lynch but then I was excited to see some really cool traits in Siemian. I don't know if others have seen what I saw, I tried to be fair about it but I am fine to wait out another year.

        Butler By'Note, kudos to you for doing a little research and knowing what was really on my mind! I appreciate you being respectful about it as well!
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        My new favorite Bronco - KJ Hamler Guy plays inspiring football!.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by haciendadad View Post
          I like the discussion about these QBs. I agree with the consensus that we all want a QB that can escape and/or extend a play when necessary. I also agree that the running can be too much of a good thing.

          Yes, I am a Siemian supporter. As you noted I saw a lot of good things in the beginning of the season, enough to be impressed. I held my opinion on Lynch until he got his chances. Even though he had some problems, I didn't see the tangibles that I saw in Siemian's play. I'm sure the offseason these two will (should) be closer, especially if Siemian has to rehab his shoulder for up to six months total. So, why did I make this thread? When I hear discussions about these two QBs many say they would rather have Lynch because he has a higher ceiling and they call out his athleticism and that is what I don't get. If this was last Summer, I'd probably agree because I didn't even know anything about Siemian. I will still give Lynch a chance to develop through next season; funny thing is that I was super excited when we draft Lynch but then I was excited to see some really cool traits in Siemian. I don't know if others have seen what I saw, I tried to be fair about it but I am fine to wait out another year.

          Butler By'Note, kudos to you for doing a little research and knowing what was really on my mind! I appreciate you being respectful about it as well!
          Early in the offseason (and before the 2016 season) I was very anti-Siemian, no particular reason why, I just didn't think he was the guy. But as the offseason has gone on I realized I've probably graded him unfairly, there were some definite bright spots in his play, and I've said many times, to me it looked like the game slowed down for him in the second half of the first KC game, and that's always something you want to see from a young QB. There were some rough spots as well, but that's also something you expect from just about every young QB.

          I haven't seen enough of him to say whether he is the guy or whether he isn't, but I do think he deserves the chance to keep competing, and if the Broncos bring in a veteran for him to learn behind that vet, like Lynch will. One season behind Manning probably taught him a lot, but these two QBs need a veteran mentor (whether it's a backup or a starter) for 2-3 seasons, to really help them learn. A coach can tell you technically where you made a mistake, but a mentor QB can calmly talk to you on the sidelines and explain where you made the mistake, why you made it, and how they have done things to eliminate that mistake.

          And I appreciate your points of view, and always enjoy a good respectful discussion!

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          • #20
            So I think we're mixing up athletic QBs vs a running QB. When I think of an athletic QB, I think of John Elway, Russell Wilson, Roethlisberger, etc., who extend plays and can escape pressure and tackles. Think of when Eli Manning was being grabbed by 2 or 3 linemen in the SB against the Pats, and he escaped pressure and made a huge play to win the game. That's athleticism. When I think of a running QB, I think of Tebow and Cam Newton. Here's a video to show you how athleticism is important:

            Superbowl 50 Champions!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by TheAsianPA View Post
              So I think we're mixing up athletic QBs vs a running QB. When I think of an athletic QB, I think of John Elway, Russell Wilson, Roethlisberger, etc., who extend plays and can escape pressure and tackles. Think of when Eli Manning was being grabbed by 2 or 3 linemen in the SB against the Pats, and he escaped pressure and made a huge play to win the game. That's athleticism. When I think of a running QB, I think of Tebow and Cam Newton. Here's a video to show you how athleticism is important:

              I think that's an appropriate observation as well. I'd like a guy like you describe, basically Aaron Rodgers, a guy who can throw from the pocket, move around to extend plays and when needed run for 10 yards if the defense is willing to give that up. But I don't want a run first QB, who's looking to run constantly.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                I think that's an appropriate observation as well. I'd like a guy like you describe, basically Aaron Rodgers, a guy who can throw from the pocket, move around to extend plays and when needed run for 10 yards if the defense is willing to give that up. But I don't want a run first QB, who's looking to run constantly.
                Agreed. Here's a play I like from Trevor, who I think we can all agree is most certainly not a run first QB (dry laugh). I like this play from him a lot because it tells me he has the mental capacity to sense the pressure coming from his right, and then backtrack his steps and instead of running for the first down like most would, he actually threads a needle to Taylor for a touchdown. For all his faults, you can't deny that he has potential to become something great:

                Superbowl 50 Champions!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by TheAsianPA View Post
                  Agreed. Here's a play I like from Trevor, who I think we can all agree is most certainly not a run first QB (dry laugh). I like this play from him a lot because it tells me he has the mental capacity to sense the pressure coming from his right, and then backtrack his steps and instead of running for the first down like most would, he actually threads a needle to Taylor for a touchdown. For all his faults, you can't deny that he has potential to become something great:

                  That was honestly his best game all season. He took a beating, but hung in there and did everything as close to perfect as u could want. He played loose that night and just balled out on what has been a very good defense the past few seasons.

                  And even his faults aren't that bad. He didn't give us that 4 int / 2 fumble clusterchuck that u know JC is good for about 4-5 gam s out of the season. Bad Trev is when he's playing tight and not taking advantage of his windows with his receivers, thus causing more 3 and outs. And personally, can deal with that far better than I can with h a guy giving the opposing a short field and putting our defense against the wall all game long.
                  #swapping

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by flosstein View Post
                    Bad Trev is when he's playing tight and not taking advantage of his windows with his receivers, thus causing more 3 and outs.
                    I agree - and playing tight has a lot to do with not trusting the line and Trevor's decision making quickness. If the line improves, those 3 and outs will drop, and Trevor should also get more comfortable with shorter clocks as he gains experience. I like his potential behind a better oline. He will just never be a physical freak who can carry a team without decent protection (Elway, Rodgers, Wilson). I'm OK with that as it often doesn't end well anyway (see Elway's first 3 SB's).

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                    • #25
                      Not everyone is going to be Mike Vick but you just want a qb who can scramble when protection breaks down

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