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At some point we have to start questioning Elway

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  • Still find it hard to believe that we have no Plan B .

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    • Is it me, or is Ryan Ramczyk the more impressive OT this year? Looks like he's having a much better season than Flag-me Bolles.

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      • Originally posted by RobertR View Post
        Apparently, the guy you're responding to believes the team would have won the Super Bowl even if Manning had never been signed.
        Never said that.

        But hey, whatever you want to believe.
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        • Originally posted by GiddyupGetEm View Post
          After last year, the Broncos were the top destination for any new NFL coach. Great defense. One year from a Super Bowl. It would be the shortest journey for a coach to get to the promised land.

          Despite being the top destination, Elway chose Vance Joseph. Not McVay or Shanahan.

          Could it be Elway wanted someone who could never eclipse him and agreed to follow orders??? That is the most likely scenario.
          No.

          Elway may not be perfect, but there is one thing and only one thing that drives him,

          The competitive drive to win.

          This whole "ego" thing has been brought up before. It was a trash idea then, its a trash idea now.
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          • Originally posted by Rich_C View Post
            If I may try and perhaps add to what the poster you responded to is trying to say (I am guessing here). Manning, like it or not, commanded respect on the field. He was so mentally sharp that even with his aging arm he STILL commanded respect on the field. Trevor, Brock & Lynch simply do not command that much respect. Why well it is simple Manning has put on film plays which make players and DC's hesitate. question yourself even. None of our QBs have ever done that. Teams are playing us accordingly.

            So did Manning have a ton to do with our SB50 win...NOPE. Did he force the opposing defense to constantly think and not play a similar scheme ALL game. You bet. Did that constant mental strain on our opposing teams play a role - I believe so. It is no different than TB, AR, DB, BR etc. They are all students of the game and all of them can read defenses, with precision, accurately.
            That, is exactly my point.
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            • Originally posted by Rich_C View Post
              If I may try and perhaps add to what the poster you responded to is trying to say (I am guessing here). Manning, like it or not, commanded respect on the field. He was so mentally sharp that even with his aging arm he STILL commanded respect on the field. Trevor, Brock & Lynch simply do not command that much respect. Why well it is simple Manning has put on film plays which make players and DC's hesitate. question yourself even. None of our QBs have ever done that. Teams are playing us accordingly.

              So did Manning have a ton to do with our SB50 win...NOPE. Did he force the opposing defense to constantly think and not play a similar scheme ALL game. You bet. Did that constant mental strain on our opposing teams play a role - I believe so. It is no different than TB, AR, DB, BR etc. They are all students of the game and all of them can read defenses, with precision, accurately.
              Seen from the opposing side that statement is probably as wrong as can be. The Ghost of Manning did not get defenses to back off, they were not scared to blitz, they were not scared of being burned for huge gains.The thing that Peyton still brought was an amazing ability to help the players around him play better, get into the right protections.... Trevor, Brock, Lynch... commands different defensive strategies, but what opposing defenses bank on is that they can confuse them and trick them into poor plays. Right now they know that they can get burned for 30 yards and still make up for it.

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              • Originally posted by Rich_C View Post
                If I may try and perhaps add to what the poster you responded to is trying to say (I am guessing here). Manning, like it or not, commanded respect on the field. He was so mentally sharp that even with his aging arm he STILL commanded respect on the field. Trevor, Brock & Lynch simply do not command that much respect. Why well it is simple Manning has put on film plays which make players and DC's hesitate. question yourself even. None of our QBs have ever done that. Teams are playing us accordingly.

                So did Manning have a ton to do with our SB50 win...NOPE. Did he force the opposing defense to constantly think and not play a similar scheme ALL game. You bet. Did that constant mental strain on our opposing teams play a role - I believe so. It is no different than TB, AR, DB, BR etc. They are all students of the game and all of them can read defenses, with precision, accurately.
                Seen from the opposing side that statement is probably as wrong as can be. The Ghost of Manning did not get defenses to back off, they were not scared to blitz, they were not scared of being burned for huge gains.The thing that Peyton still brought was an amazing ability to help the players around him play better, get into the right protections.... Trevor, Brock, Lynch... commands different defensive strategies, but what opposing defenses bank on is that they can confuse them and trick them into poor plays. Right now they know that they can get burned for 30 yards and still make up for it.

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                • When I look at the Saints, a team that bounced back from a 7-9 season, I see the impact their rookies are having in games. Ryan Ramczyk looks like the best rookie OT, CB Marshon Lattimore and FS Marcus Williams are starters and the 3rd-round RB Alvin Kamara is a stud with 6 touchdowns already.

                  Broncos 2017 draft: Bolles is starting, mixed results with too many penalties, playing worse than Ramczyk and Cam Robinson. DeMarcus Walker was a productive inside rusher for FSU but is practicing out of position and has been inactive, zero impact from the 2nd-round pick. Carlos Henderson was so bad in training camp and preseason that Elway stashed him on IR with a minor injury. Brendan Langley: no impact at all. Jake Butt and Chad Kelly: IR. McKenzie was drafted to be the returner and he can't do the job, 5 fumbles in 8 games. RB Henderson has 1 carry for 1 yard despite a promising preseason.

                  Elway drafted Carlos Henderson ahead of Kareem Hunt.

                  So, with such a small impact from the draft class, the team continues to have the same issues from last season, with only a couple of free agents like Leary and Peko as the difference. The inside pass rush remains non existent despite the addition of Walker. The slot receiver remains an issue despite the addition of Carlos Henderson. The return game remains an issue despite the addition of McKenzie. The offense remains without an impact TE because Jake Butt won't play a snap this season.

                  Besides the evident bad coaching by Joseph, Olivo, etc, it's hard to turn things around when you're getting so little from the draft. We don't have one single rookie making enough impact to improve the chances of winning games. I see Kareem Hunt, Kamara, Smith-Schuster and other rookies making a big impact for their teams, while the Broncos have nearly the entire rookie class away from the field waiting for next season.
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                  • Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
                    When I look at the Saints, a team that bounced back from a 7-9 season, I see the impact their rookies are having in games. Ryan Ramczyk looks like the best rookie OT, CB Marshon Lattimore and FS Marcus Williams are starters and the 3rd-round RB Alvin Kamara is a stud with 6 touchdowns already.

                    Broncos 2017 draft: Bolles is starting, mixed results with too many penalties, playing worse than Ramczyk and Cam Robinson. DeMarcus Walker was a productive inside rusher for FSU but is practicing out of position and has been inactive, zero impact from the 2nd-round pick. Carlos Henderson was so bad in training camp and preseason that Elway stashed him on IR with a minor injury. Brendan Langley: no impact at all. Jake Butt and Chad Kelly: IR. McKenzie was drafted to be the returner and he can't do the job, 5 fumbles in 8 games. RB Henderson has 1 carry for 1 yard despite a promising preseason.

                    Elway drafted Carlos Henderson ahead of Kareem Hunt.

                    So, with such a small impact from the draft class, the team continues to have the same issues from last season, with only a couple of free agents like Leary and Peko as the difference. The inside pass rush remains non existent despite the addition of Walker. The slot receiver remains an issue despite the addition of Carlos Henderson. The return game remains an issue despite the addition of McKenzie. The offense remains without an impact TE because Jake Butt won't play a snap this season.

                    Besides the evident bad coaching by Joseph, Olivo, etc, it's hard to turn things around when you're getting so little from the draft. We don't have one single rookie making enough impact to improve the chances of winning games. I see Kareem Hunt, Kamara, Smith-Schuster and other rookies making a big impact for their teams, while the Broncos have nearly the entire rookie class away from the field waiting for next season.
                    This is an excellent post. Despite what some may say, you really should expect some return from your rookies, especially if the current position they play was filled by someone who was not performing well. The fact that only Garrett Bolles is showing anything at all shows how little talent we not only have, but little talent at scouting players. Unless each rookie has a turnaround sophomore year, the 2017 draft may have been one of the worst drafts in Broncos history. I look at players like Cooper Kupp wonder why the heck we didn't go for him and what they saw in Carlos Henderson. And drafting Brendan no name Langley...in the third? Seriously? This is why I seriously doubt our future even if we have a top 5 pick.
                    Superbowl 50 Champions!

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                    • Originally posted by TheAsianPA View Post
                      This is an excellent post. Despite what some may say, you really should expect some return from your rookies, especially if the current position they play was filled by someone who was not performing well. The fact that only Garrett Bolles is showing anything at all shows how little talent we not only have, but little talent at scouting players. Unless each rookie has a turnaround sophomore year, the 2017 draft may have been one of the worst drafts in Broncos history. I look at players like Cooper Kupp wonder why the heck we didn't go for him and what they saw in Carlos Henderson. And drafting Brendan no name Langley...in the third? Seriously? This is why I seriously doubt our future even if we have a top 5 pick.
                      I agree 100%

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                      • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
                        Seen from the opposing side that statement is probably as wrong as can be. The Ghost of Manning did not get defenses to back off, they were not scared to blitz, they were not scared of being burned for huge gains.The thing that Peyton still brought was an amazing ability to help the players around him play better, get into the right protections.... Trevor, Brock, Lynch... commands different defensive strategies, but what opposing defenses bank on is that they can confuse them and trick them into poor plays. Right now they know that they can get burned for 30 yards and still make up for it.
                        No the ghost of Manning did not get teams to back off. What he did do and this is mainly play-offs is chess match the opposing defense into allowing a route of his choosing to develop post-snap. So no that route may not have been 30 yards downfield but a large portion of the time the play call he ran generally worked. Now as you said because Peyton was so detailed and was so meticulous and more importantly has a long proven history of winning - he did force all others around him to prepare at his level. When you continue to play against someone who played the game like Manning as an opposing defender it is mentally taxing. If you don't believe me go back and watch the NFL top 100 clips and listen to the guys speak about him. That was their general consensus about him too.


                        Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
                        When I look at the Saints, a team that bounced back from a 7-9 season, I see the impact their rookies are having in games. Ryan Ramczyk looks like the best rookie OT, CB Marshon Lattimore and FS Marcus Williams are starters and the 3rd-round RB Alvin Kamara is a stud with 6 touchdowns already.

                        Broncos 2017 draft: Bolles is starting, mixed results with too many penalties, playing worse than Ramczyk and Cam Robinson. DeMarcus Walker was a productive inside rusher for FSU but is practicing out of position and has been inactive, zero impact from the 2nd-round pick. Carlos Henderson was so bad in training camp and preseason that Elway stashed him on IR with a minor injury. Brendan Langley: no impact at all. Jake Butt and Chad Kelly: IR. McKenzie was drafted to be the returner and he can't do the job, 5 fumbles in 8 games. RB Henderson has 1 carry for 1 yard despite a promising preseason.

                        Elway drafted Carlos Henderson ahead of Kareem Hunt.

                        So, with such a small impact from the draft class, the team continues to have the same issues from last season, with only a couple of free agents like Leary and Peko as the difference. The inside pass rush remains non existent despite the addition of Walker. The slot receiver remains an issue despite the addition of Carlos Henderson. The return game remains an issue despite the addition of McKenzie. The offense remains without an impact TE because Jake Butt won't play a snap this season.

                        Besides the evident bad coaching by Joseph, Olivo, etc, it's hard to turn things around when you're getting so little from the draft. We don't have one single rookie making enough impact to improve the chances of winning games. I see Kareem Hunt, Kamara, Smith-Schuster and other rookies making a big impact for their teams, while the Broncos have nearly the entire rookie class away from the field waiting for next season.
                        This is an excellent post. To take that a step further though we are also playing many of our current defenders out of position and out of their general comfort zone. Look no further than your comment on Walker. Then look at the percentage of snaps we are playing zone when most of our players are among the best in the league at man-to-man. What is also quite important about your post and the draft stats is that nearly the entire 2017 draft was offensively focused. Now we look at the players we picked up and we have nearly zero contributors and to make matters worse we cut some of the players who did fairly well at those same positions last year (I am mainly thinking about K.Raymond).

                        1st- Bolles - Played decent but as you said penalties
                        2nd - Walker - Been inactive for AT LEAST 2-3 games and was played out of position for the first bunch of games
                        3rd- Carlos Henderson- IR
                        3rd- B.Langley - ST mostly and hasn't seen much of the field.
                        5th- J.Butt- IR
                        5th- Isaiah McKenzie- by all accounts has not been great
                        6th- D.Henderson- hasn't played a game
                        7th- C.Kelly - IR


                        6 Picks we offensive players. 4 of those 6 are not playing or haven't played at all this season. One of those 6 replaced a player who overall played better at the same position (McKenzie vs Raymond).

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                        • The five-game losing streak sucks, there isn't even the positive of the likes of Walker and D. Henderson gaining experience due to them being inactive.

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                          • Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
                            When I look at the Saints, a team that bounced back from a 7-9 season, I see the impact their rookies are having in games. Ryan Ramczyk looks like the best rookie OT, CB Marshon Lattimore and FS Marcus Williams are starters and the 3rd-round RB Alvin Kamara is a stud with 6 touchdowns already.

                            Broncos 2017 draft: Bolles is starting, mixed results with too many penalties, playing worse than Ramczyk and Cam Robinson. DeMarcus Walker was a productive inside rusher for FSU but is practicing out of position and has been inactive, zero impact from the 2nd-round pick. Carlos Henderson was so bad in training camp and preseason that Elway stashed him on IR with a minor injury. Brendan Langley: no impact at all. Jake Butt and Chad Kelly: IR. McKenzie was drafted to be the returner and he can't do the job, 5 fumbles in 8 games. RB Henderson has 1 carry for 1 yard despite a promising preseason.

                            Elway drafted Carlos Henderson ahead of Kareem Hunt.

                            So, with such a small impact from the draft class, the team continues to have the same issues from last season, with only a couple of free agents like Leary and Peko as the difference. The inside pass rush remains non existent despite the addition of Walker. The slot receiver remains an issue despite the addition of Carlos Henderson. The return game remains an issue despite the addition of McKenzie. The offense remains without an impact TE because Jake Butt won't play a snap this season.

                            Besides the evident bad coaching by Joseph, Olivo, etc, it's hard to turn things around when you're getting so little from the draft. We don't have one single rookie making enough impact to improve the chances of winning games. I see Kareem Hunt, Kamara, Smith-Schuster and other rookies making a big impact for their teams, while the Broncos have nearly the entire rookie class away from the field waiting for next season.
                            Great post, but the structural problems extend beyond this draft and the rookie output. The entire model Elway developed since he came is biased toward winning one big game but not sustaining a long-term franchise.

                            Elway went all in for Peyton. Along with Peyton came Wes Welker, some decent TEs (Tamme, Owen Daniels) and you have to give Elway credit for getting Talib, Ware, Ward, etc. He adopted the Seattle model well and helped build a strong defense, even if Wade took it to the next level.

                            But now most of those players are gone, and there won't be a second wave of Mannings and Wares and Welkers, etc. We got really lucky just landing several legends in the game, and there had to be a positive feedback in that the presence of strong players makes other strong players want to come here.

                            Most of those players are gone, and there isn't a looming FA list that looks anything remotely like those guys I mentioned-- so we're left with our draft selections as the backbone of the team. But we've drafted just two pro bowlers since 2011 when Elway took over, Von Miller and Julius Thomas (he's gone), we've missed on a few first round picks and most of our second and third round picks have been busts. You covered this draft, but other early picks since 2011-- Paxton, Ty Sambrailo, Cody Latimer, Schofield, Heuerman, Montee Ball, Nate Irving, etc are failed picks. Wolfe panned out and Gotsis might. Even some of the "better" players drafted early (Decker, Hillman, Rahim Moore, Kayvon Webster, Orlando Franklin) are off the team now. Some of the better late round picks (Julius, Malik, Trevathan) are off the team.

                            So we're left with lingering remnants of good free agents (Sanders, Stewart), including some guys who are nearly done (Talib), the veterans/leaders consist of only a couple players that were drafted 5+ years ago (DT, Chris Harris) and a lot of guys just filling in spots because we can't do any better. Sanders is 30 and we don't have any other WRs or TEs after DT/ES that can do anything resembling NFL level play. We lack young playmakers /future studs, and the culture of accountability and discipline that came with Manning has been lost.
                            Last edited by cmc0605; 11-15-2017, 11:08 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
                              When I look at the Saints, a team that bounced back from a 7-9 season, I see the impact their rookies are having in games. Ryan Ramczyk looks like the best rookie OT, CB Marshon Lattimore and FS Marcus Williams are starters and the 3rd-round RB Alvin Kamara is a stud with 6 touchdowns already.

                              Broncos 2017 draft: Bolles is starting, mixed results with too many penalties, playing worse than Ramczyk and Cam Robinson. DeMarcus Walker was a productive inside rusher for FSU but is practicing out of position and has been inactive, zero impact from the 2nd-round pick. Carlos Henderson was so bad in training camp and preseason that Elway stashed him on IR with a minor injury. Brendan Langley: no impact at all. Jake Butt and Chad Kelly: IR. McKenzie was drafted to be the returner and he can't do the job, 5 fumbles in 8 games. RB Henderson has 1 carry for 1 yard despite a promising preseason.

                              Elway drafted Carlos Henderson ahead of Kareem Hunt.

                              So, with such a small impact from the draft class, the team continues to have the same issues from last season, with only a couple of free agents like Leary and Peko as the difference. The inside pass rush remains non existent despite the addition of Walker. The slot receiver remains an issue despite the addition of Carlos Henderson. The return game remains an issue despite the addition of McKenzie. The offense remains without an impact TE because Jake Butt won't play a snap this season.

                              Besides the evident bad coaching by Joseph, Olivo, etc, it's hard to turn things around when you're getting so little from the draft. We don't have one single rookie making enough impact to improve the chances of winning games. I see Kareem Hunt, Kamara, Smith-Schuster and other rookies making a big impact for their teams, while the Broncos have nearly the entire rookie class away from the field waiting for next season.
                              Elway's drafting is horrific and your post makes me sad, because it's 100% correct

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                              • Originally posted by BroncosIsLife View Post
                                VJ was not a Rooney Rule hire. He was someone Elway has had a man crush on for a while. It's documented. He wanted VJ. He was not a 'we need a black coach because reasons' hire.

                                Stupid hire? Yes.

                                Your reasoning? No.

                                I think you have deeper issues here.
                                You’re right - this has nothing to do with the Rooney rule. Elway went cheap & threw long but it was IN-COM-PLETE!

                                He @ coaches don’t so well.... and he’s public lambasting of the team is a sign that he struggles to communicate with coaches (see Reeves, Dan).

                                If he & Shanny were so synchronized, just hire him already
                                Hate List for 2016-2017 Season: 1. Oakland, 2. New England, 3. Kansas City, 4. Pittsburgh and 5. Houston (yes, Houston....)

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