Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Seven Years of #7

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Seven Years of #7

    John Elway joined the Broncos in an executive capacity in January of 2011 and the conclusion of the 2017 brings him to a completion of 7-years of executive service. Being a GM has got to be one of the hardest jobs on the planet as only success brings longevity and the only certainty is that more than half will fail each year. I always felt there is a true competitor with Elway as GM; someone that will fight tooth and nail to win at all costs. Seven years and two Super Bowl appearances is a good run by any measure.

    Frustrated with the uncertainty ahead I took a look back to reflect in the decision making processes that are Elway's and I think I came away more concerned.

    Since Elway's took his executive role in 2011 the Broncos have had 11-Quarterbacks-- most picked by Elway himself: Tim Tebow, Caleb Hanie, Brock Osweiler, Zac Dysert, Trevor Siemian, Paxton Lynch, Chad Kelly, Kyle Sloter, Peyton Manning, and Mark Sanchez. The crown jewel of his career obviously has to be the signing of Manning leading to a Super Bowl victory and two appearances. But what about the other 9? (Removing Tebow). I think by any measure the other 9 are big misses. Some might argue Sloter was the most capable. But, this is a horrible record. Osweiler maybe got close and he got lucky with Siemian, but this is overall a very very consistently poor identification of talent at quarterback. Nine misses in 7-years? By one of the best quarterbacks of all time? How does this happen? What is wrong?

    It cannot all be his fault, right? In his 7-years we have had five Offensive Coordinators. McCoy, Gase, Dennison, McCoy and now Musgrave. Three Head Coaches (likely to be four soon), Fox, Kubiak and Joseoh. And, three Defensive Coordinators, Del Rio, Philips, and Woods.

    A similar concerning discussion can be had about the blatant ignoring of the offensive line and the inside line backers.

    What I took notice of was that success as a coach on the Broncos was no assurance of longevity under Elway (i.e. Gase, Kubiak and Philips). I know Kubiak left for 'health reasons'.

    So, I am a little concerned about what lies ahead. On one hand, Elway always comes through-- always. There's more helicopter scores left in him. But on the other hand I am looking back at the turnstile of coaches and coordinators and the laughable choices at quarterback wondering if the helicopter has flown for the last time?

    What stands out to me is maybe the fans aren't the only ones with 'knee-jerk' reactions. There has been a lot of turnover at key positions with the Broncos and that all lies squarely on #7. With change imminent at Head Coach, Quarterback and Offensive Coordinator, it is only certain that the pattern will continue yet again. And that is concerning.
    sigpic

  • #2
    Originally posted by Rancid View Post
    John Elway joined the Broncos in an executive capacity in January of 2011 and the conclusion of the 2017 brings him to a completion of 7-years of executive service. Being a GM has got to be one of the hardest jobs on the planet as only success brings longevity and the only certainty is that more than half will fail each year. I always felt there is a true competitor with Elway as GM; someone that will fight tooth and nail to win at all costs. Seven years and two Super Bowl appearances is a good run by any measure.

    Frustrated with the uncertainty ahead I took a look back to reflect in the decision making processes that are Elway's and I think I came away more concerned.

    Since Elway's took his executive role in 2011 the Broncos have had 11-Quarterbacks-- most picked by Elway himself: Tim Tebow, Caleb Hanie, Brock Osweiler, Zac Dysert, Trevor Siemian, Paxton Lynch, Chad Kelly, Kyle Sloter, Peyton Manning, and Mark Sanchez. The crown jewel of his career obviously has to be the signing of Manning leading to a Super Bowl victory and two appearances. But what about the other 9? (Removing Tebow). I think by any measure the other 9 are big misses. Some might argue Sloter was the most capable. But, this is a horrible record. Osweiler maybe got close and he got lucky with Siemian, but this is overall a very very consistently poor identification of talent at quarterback. Nine misses in 7-years? By one of the best quarterbacks of all time? How does this happen? What is wrong?

    It cannot all be his fault, right? In his 7-years we have had five Offensive Coordinators. McCoy, Gase, Dennison, McCoy and now Musgrave. Three Head Coaches (likely to be four soon), Fox, Kubiak and Joseoh. And, three Defensive Coordinators, Del Rio, Philips, and Woods.

    A similar concerning discussion can be had about the blatant ignoring of the offensive line and the inside line backers.

    What I took notice of was that success as a coach on the Broncos was no assurance of longevity under Elway (i.e. Gase, Kubiak and Philips). I know Kubiak left for 'health reasons'.

    So, I am a little concerned about what lies ahead. On one hand, Elway always comes through-- always. There's more helicopter scores left in him. But on the other hand I am looking back at the turnstile of coaches and coordinators and the laughable choices at quarterback wondering if the helicopter has flown for the last time?

    What stands out to me is maybe the fans aren't the only ones with 'knee-jerk' reactions. There has been a lot of turnover at key positions with the Broncos and that all lies squarely on #7. With change imminent at Head Coach, Quarterback and Offensive Coordinator, it is only certain that the pattern will continue yet again. And that is concerning.
    You're really going to 3rd string QBs and training camp arms to look at the number of QBs the team has had? That seems like a lot of work, considering many of those guys were depth guys. How many QBs have the Patriots had during the same time? Starting QBs is the more accurate judge, and given this year it will reflect poorly on him, but throwing guys like Hanie, Dysert and Sloter in there to beef up the numbers is disingenuous.

    Also some of those coordinators left to become HCs, and some left before it was decided if they'd be retained. Gase left (and is still angry) because he wasn't named the Broncos HC, but look at his record with Miami (particularly how the offense has performed), no chance the Broncos win the Super Bowl with him.

    Also since you decided to put Kubiak's health reasons in quotations, if you believe he was forced out, does it really make sense that not only did the Broncos retain his son on staff but that he was willing to stay given that his father was forced out? Does it really make sense that 6 months after being "forced out" Kubiak returned to the organization to work beside (and for) the guy who supposedly just forced him out?

    Elway deserves plenty of blame (the actual QB mess, the o-line situation, Joseph) but there's no need to try and beef up things against him to do so.

    Comment


    • #3
      The skepticism towards Elway as a GM is understandable because his success has been tied to Peyton Manning. Yes, Elway deserves credit for signing Manning, but he's yet to prove he can build a good team without the Hall-of-Fame QB.

      With Peyton Manning: 13-3, 13-3, 12-4, 12-4.

      Without Manning: 8-8, 9-7, 3-9.

      This notion gets even stronger because of John Fox. Mostly an average head coach that never had consecutive winning seasons, Fox enjoyed great success with Peyton Manning and, when available, was quickly hired by the Bears as a top-notch coach that can turn franchises around. Without Manning, Fox instantly returned to his average status and is close to losing his job in Chicago after 3 consecutive losing seasons.

      The poor draft classes, which is a fair way to judge a GM, also don't help Elway's cause. A former QB himself, a Hall-of-Fame one, he identified Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch as his QBs.

      He will enjoy more job security than most GMs around the NFL because the Broncos don't even have an owner to put Elway on a hot seat and he is considered a football god in Denver. Elway will have plenty of time to fix this mess. I think it's fair to question if he will be able to do it.
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        The thing people don't get is, you can't really take the years with Manning as Elway, Elway was lucky he landed Manning, if he had not land Manning, the Broncos would be bad. How many of the players do you think would of came to us without Manning? Talib? Ward? Ware? I don't even think Harris would of sign with us for so cheap if we didn't have Manning. anning leaves the Broncos and now Elway finnally figue that you can't use the "We are a winning orginzation" to draw Free agents, they rather take the money or go to a team that has a franchise QB. Just look at his Draft picks, most his Drafts are Horrid, Broncos fan even gotten to the point were we want Elway to trade the 2nd round pick because of how badly he always fails with that pick.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
          The skepticism towards Elway as a GM is understandable because his success has been tied to Peyton Manning. Yes, Elway deserves credit for signing Manning, but he's yet to prove he can build a good team without the Hall-of-Fame QB.

          With Peyton Manning: 13-3, 13-3, 12-4, 12-4.

          Without Manning: 8-8, 9-7, 3-9.

          This notion gets even stronger because of John Fox. Mostly an average head coach that never had consecutive winning seasons, Fox enjoyed great success with Peyton Manning and, when available, was quickly hired by the Bears as a top-notch coach that can turn franchises around. Without Manning, Fox instantly returned to his average status and is close to losing his job in Chicago after 3 consecutive losing seasons.

          The poor draft classes, which is a fair way to judge a GM, also don't help Elway's cause. A former QB himself, a Hall-of-Fame one, he identified Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch as his QBs.

          He will enjoy more job security than most GMs around the NFL because the Broncos don't even have an owner to put Elway on a hot seat and he is considered a football god in Denver. Elway will have plenty of time to fix this mess. I think it's fair to question if he will be able to do it.
          How many good teams do you think were built without a HoF caliber QB? I mean if one looks at there are a lot more teams losing without a HoF Qb than with one.

          Super Bowl winners

          Tom Brady
          PM
          Tom Brady
          Wilson
          Flacco
          Eli Manning
          Rodgers
          Brees
          Big Ben
          Eli
          PM
          Big Ben
          Tom Brady
          Tom Brady
          Tampa Bay
          Tom Brady
          Baltimore
          Warner
          Elway
          Elway
          Favre
          Aikman
          Young
          Aikman
          Aikman

          I do not feel like doing the work but my guess is if I took the top 4 teams every year it would enforce this point even more

          Typically teams with good qbs win. Which means teams without good qbs are typically losing

          Not sure how good is it to evaluate a GM or Coach...if they can win consistently without a good QB
          Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chronoless View Post
            The thing people don't get is, you can't really take the years with Manning as Elway, Elway was lucky he landed Manning, if he had not land Manning, the Broncos would be bad. How many of the players do you think would of came to us without Manning? Talib? Ward? Ware? I don't even think Harris would of sign with us for so cheap if we didn't have Manning. anning leaves the Broncos and now Elway finnally figue that you can't use the "We are a winning orginzation" to draw Free agents, they rather take the money or go to a team that has a franchise QB. Just look at his Draft picks, most his Drafts are Horrid, Broncos fan even gotten to the point were we want Elway to trade the 2nd round pick because of how badly he always fails with that pick.
            He was lucky he landed him? The only reason Manning even considered Denver was because of Elway, and that was the reason he chose Denver.

            I would also point you to looking at the 2010 defense, then the 2012 defense, consider the 2012 defense was assembled almost entirely before anyone knew if Manning could even play. Elway turned the team around. He deserves blame for where they are now, but the revisionist history is ridiculous.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hadez View Post
              How many good teams do you think were built without a HoF caliber QB? I mean if one looks at there are a lot more teams losing without a HoF Qb than with one.

              Super Bowl winners

              Tom Brady
              PM
              Tom Brady
              Wilson
              Flacco
              Eli Manning
              Rodgers
              Brees
              Big Ben
              Eli
              PM
              Big Ben
              Tom Brady
              Tom Brady
              Tampa Bay
              Tom Brady
              Baltimore
              Warner
              Elway
              Elway
              Favre
              Aikman
              Young
              Aikman
              Aikman

              I do not feel like doing the work but my guess is if I took the top 4 teams every year it would enforce this point even more

              Typically teams with good qbs win. Which means teams without good qbs are typically losing

              Not sure how good is it to evaluate a GM or Coach...if they can win consistently without a good QB

              Finding a HOF QB is easy, every team is able to do it...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Rancid View Post
                John Elway joined the Broncos in an executive capacity in January of 2011 and the conclusion of the 2017 brings him to a completion of 7-years of executive service. Being a GM has got to be one of the hardest jobs on the planet as only success brings longevity and the only certainty is that more than half will fail each year. I always felt there is a true competitor with Elway as GM; someone that will fight tooth and nail to win at all costs. Seven years and two Super Bowl appearances is a good run by any measure.

                Frustrated with the uncertainty ahead I took a look back to reflect in the decision making processes that are Elway's and I think I came away more concerned.

                Since Elway's took his executive role in 2011 the Broncos have had 11-Quarterbacks-- most picked by Elway himself: Tim Tebow, Caleb Hanie, Brock Osweiler, Zac Dysert, Trevor Siemian, Paxton Lynch, Chad Kelly, Kyle Sloter, Peyton Manning, and Mark Sanchez. The crown jewel of his career obviously has to be the signing of Manning leading to a Super Bowl victory and two appearances. But what about the other 9? (Removing Tebow). I think by any measure the other 9 are big misses. Some might argue Sloter was the most capable. But, this is a horrible record. Osweiler maybe got close and he got lucky with Siemian, but this is overall a very very consistently poor identification of talent at quarterback. Nine misses in 7-years? By one of the best quarterbacks of all time? How does this happen? What is wrong?

                It cannot all be his fault, right? In his 7-years we have had five Offensive Coordinators. McCoy, Gase, Dennison, McCoy and now Musgrave. Three Head Coaches (likely to be four soon), Fox, Kubiak and Joseoh. And, three Defensive Coordinators, Del Rio, Philips, and Woods.

                A similar concerning discussion can be had about the blatant ignoring of the offensive line and the inside line backers.

                What I took notice of was that success as a coach on the Broncos was no assurance of longevity under Elway (i.e. Gase, Kubiak and Philips). I know Kubiak left for 'health reasons'.

                So, I am a little concerned about what lies ahead. On one hand, Elway always comes through-- always. There's more helicopter scores left in him. But on the other hand I am looking back at the turnstile of coaches and coordinators and the laughable choices at quarterback wondering if the helicopter has flown for the last time?

                What stands out to me is maybe the fans aren't the only ones with 'knee-jerk' reactions. There has been a lot of turnover at key positions with the Broncos and that all lies squarely on #7. With change imminent at Head Coach, Quarterback and Offensive Coordinator, it is only certain that the pattern will continue yet again. And that is concerning.
                I think we had a good situation going with Kubiak and Wade. Unfortunately Kubes health sidetracked that train.

                Not sure why we went total rebuild instead of keeping Wade and trying to rebuild the offense with a offensive head coach but in hindsight going another way Defensively with a defensive head coach was a horrible decision.

                I think Elway's biggest mistake was continuing his man-crush chase-down of VJ instead of evaluating the situation from a new perspective based on what went down since we had Wade and Kubiak.
                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                  Finding a HOF QB is easy, every team is able to do it...
                  No it is not. I lived in San Diego for most of my life. See their chase of Qbs from Fouts to Rivers.

                  Few teams are lucky like the 49ers of the 80s and 90s or Packers of the 90s to now.

                  Most teams struggle for years looking for a good qb.

                  It is why some teams like the Lions hold onto Stafford even tho I am pretty sure a lot of the time a qb like Stafford would not be good enough for Bronco fans.
                  Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hadez View Post
                    No it is not. I lived in San Diego for most of my life. See their chase of Qbs from Fouts to Rivers.

                    Few teams are lucky like the 49ers of the 80s and 90s or Packers of the 90s to now.

                    Most teams struggle for years looking for a good qb.

                    It is why some teams like the Lions hold onto Stafford even tho I am pretty sure a lot of the time a qb like Stafford would not be good enough for Bronco fans.
                    That was sarcasm my friend. And yes that's why the Lions will never let Stafford go, the Bengals keep the Red Rifle around, the Ravens hold onto Flacco etc.

                    The reason QBs like Lynch rocket up the draft boards are because QBs are hard to find, so their value sky rockets. A lot of people don't seem to understand that.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chronoless View Post
                      The thing people don't get is, you can't really take the years with Manning as Elway, Elway was lucky he landed Manning, if he had not land Manning, the Broncos would be bad. How many of the players do you think would of came to us without Manning? Talib? Ward? Ware? I don't even think Harris would of sign with us for so cheap if we didn't have Manning. anning leaves the Broncos and now Elway finnally figue that you can't use the "We are a winning orginzation" to draw Free agents, they rather take the money or go to a team that has a franchise QB. Just look at his Draft picks, most his Drafts are Horrid, Broncos fan even gotten to the point were we want Elway to trade the 2nd round pick because of how badly he always fails with that pick.
                      I am starting to think Elway's biggest problem in evaluating offensive talent has to do with his skills as a qb. He was able elevate the play of average OL and average WRs. Does he think we can get by with average OL and average Rbs?

                      I am starting to think he forgot how he was not Championship successful until we got Gary Zim, Tony Jones, Shannon Sharpe, Stink, Rod Smith TD, Howard Griffith and some very amazing offensive coaches.
                      Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
                        The skepticism towards Elway as a GM is understandable because his success has been tied to Peyton Manning. Yes, Elway deserves credit for signing Manning, but he's yet to prove he can build a good team without the Hall-of-Fame QB.

                        With Peyton Manning: 13-3, 13-3, 12-4, 12-4.

                        Without Manning: 8-8, 9-7, 3-9.

                        This notion gets even stronger because of John Fox.
                        I'll stop you right there. The "notion" that Manning is responsible for that final 12-4 season is ridiculous. He was plain terrible, an interception machine, he was out for a 1/3 of the season, and when he came back he was a shell of his former self, a glorified game manager. The defense that Elway assembled was the main reason we won all those games and the decisive factor in every playoff game including Superbowl 50.

                        Why are people trying to bend the truth so much to fit this Anti-Elway narrative?

                        Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                          He was lucky he landed him? The only reason Manning even considered Denver was because of Elway, and that was the reason he chose Denver.

                          I would also point you to looking at the 2010 defense, then the 2012 defense, consider the 2012 defense was assembled almost entirely before anyone knew if Manning could even play. Elway turned the team around. He deserves blame for where they are now, but the revisionist history is ridiculous.
                          It's deranged and the trollish repetition of it is getting tiresome.

                          Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LynchMobster View Post
                            I'll stop you right there. The "notion" that Manning is responsible for that final 12-4 season is ridiculous. He was plain terrible, an interception machine, he was out for a 1/3 of the season, and when he came back he was a shell of his former self, a glorified game manager. The defense that Elway assembled was the main reason we won all those games and the decisive factor in every playoff game including Superbowl 50.

                            Why are people trying to bend the truth so much to fit this Anti-Elway narrative?
                            I agree with you.

                            We essentially won the SB50 on the back of a strong defense with a great coaching job by Wade and staff.

                            PM was along for the ride more than a playmaker.

                            Like you I also do not understand why people keep trying to take this away from Elway but it is not the first time I have seen Bronco fans try to take things away from someone in effort to get rid of them.

                            Still think Elway's offensive talent decisions needs serious rework tho
                            Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hadez View Post
                              I am starting to think Elway's biggest problem in evaluating offensive talent has to do with his skills as a qb. He was able elevate the play of average OL and average WRs. Does he think we can get by with average OL and average Rbs?

                              I am starting to think he forgot how he was not Championship successful until we got Gary Zim, Tony Jones, Shannon Sharpe, Stink, Rod Smith TD, Howard Griffith and some very amazing offensive coaches.
                              I agree. One of the things both Wayne Gretzky and Magic Johnson said after their failed coaching careers was that they just couldn't understand how their players weren't able to see and do what they were able to do.

                              Elway probably looks at QBs with measurables and then just figures they'll be able to do what he could do.

                              EDIT: And down that road, when he first took over and drafted Von Miller he said that he was going to build the defense based on what he struggled against. He drafted Miller because it reminded him of Derrick Thomas.
                              Last edited by Butler By'Note; 12-04-2017, 08:07 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X