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Given Rumors and The State Of The Team, Whats The Best Direction?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Broncos-R-Great View Post
    I can see the appeal of a total rebuild, draft a QB, start him day 1, drop some of the veterans, save some cap space, roll it into next year.

    On the opposite end, are we overreacting to one bad season? This has been one of the most successful teams since the 80's, they never had an all out rebuild, do we change that strategy now? The team committed 34 turnovers (a horrible -17 turnover differential), most of those by the QBs, get a better QB and RT, cut the turnovers in half and we likely see a much better team next year.

    By keeping VJ there's no way they're thinking total rebuild, they desperately want him to succeed, and will give him all the pieces he needs in 2018 to succeed. VJ will not survive a rebuild, he liklely wouldn't make it past week 8 on rebuilding team. If they wanted a total rebuild, they needed to start with a new coach.

    They'll likely drop a couple veterans (Talib, Sanders), try their hardest to get Kirk Cousins and a new RT, then probably draft somebody like Barkley. It'll be a reboot (or whatever VJ called it), not a rebuild
    I'm more inclined to back your logic. The thing I do not foresee is going all out on a rookie QB. It could happen, but I am still in between 1) Cousins, a solid effort to sign FAs - Oliner and WR for starters, and, best use of the #5 pick, to include trading down for extra goodies OR 2) signing a decent vet (Keenum may be available, as an example), still being as active in FA, and then working a deal to land someone like Mayfield, in which we move back a wee bit for draft capital. In either case, we strengthen our QB situation in 2018, secure it long term, fix our Oline, WR corps, and hopefully find a decent young RB and ILB.

    And as you say.....if we do the above, we are in playoff contention in my opinion. We were not that far off this past season, and for me, it will only take an upgrade on O to get the ball rolling. But we can also clean up our D to some degree as well.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by FR Tim View Post
      Maybe that is true. Maybe a rookie can earn that respect and patience. I am skeptical.

      But I am not opposed to a rookie. If expectations can be tempered. Because all the top have significant flaws and will need time to develop.

      Also the Broncos fanbase will “take sides” no matter who is on the roster. Cousins will be “overpaid” , the rookies all “busts” or “not the right pick” and the invariable “ late rounder should get his shot “ mantra .

      Cousins is really the only FA QB I have much enthusiasm for. He stabalizes the position for the next five years. Even if overpaid.

      None of the other FAs or possible vet trades have that cache or my interest If not him then fine with drafting a rookie as the day one starter. Going to trust the scouts and coaches make the right choice and give him the best system to succeed
      I think the QB play was so bad this year that expectations will be lower. As long as whoever we put in the position at least looks halfway competent, and isn't giving away turnovers like they're Halloween candy, "most" will be happy.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by CanDB View Post
        I'm more inclined to back your logic. The thing I do not foresee is going all out on a rookie QB. It could happen, but I am still in between 1) Cousins, a solid effort to sign FAs - Oliner and WR for starters, and, best use of the #5 pick, to include trading down for extra goodies OR 2) signing a decent vet (Keenum may be available, as an example), still being as active in FA, and then working a deal to land someone like Mayfield, in which we move back a wee bit for draft capital. In either case, we strengthen our QB situation in 2018, secure it long term, fix our Oline, WR corps, and hopefully find a decent young RB and ILB.

        And as you say.....if we do the above, we are in playoff contention in my opinion. We were not that far off this past season, and for me, it will only take an upgrade on O to get the ball rolling. But we can also clean up our D to some degree as well.
        People tend to ingnore just how bad the QB play was this year, and how it really magnified other problems. Our QBs threw 22 INTs, 19 TDs, while our opponents threw 29 TDs and just 10 INTs, our QBs had a 73 rating while our opponents had a 92, then 9 fumbles from our QBs was the cherry on top. The QBs were badly outplayed week after week.

        We were down 2+ scores during the majority of almost every game, this allowed opposing teams to play conservative, this affected the pass rush and turnovers. Opposing offenses never had to take any risks.

        They need to find ways to limit turnovers (better QB play would help tremendously) and build early leads. Our defense is a completely different animal when playing with a lead.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Broncos-R-Great View Post
          People tend to ingnore just how bad the QB play was this year, and how it really magnified other problems. Our QBs threw 22 INTs, 19 TDs, while our opponents threw 29 TDs and just 10 INTs, our QBs had a 73 rating while our opponents had a 92, then 9 fumbles from our QBs was the cherry on top. The QBs were badly outplayed week after week.

          We were down 2+ scores during the majority of almost every game, this allowed opposing teams to play conservative, this affected the pass rush and turnovers. Opposing offenses never had to take any risks.

          They need to find ways to limit turnovers (better QB play would help tremendously) and build early leads. Our defense is a completely different animal when playing with a lead.
          So true. And no doubt, which I think you'll agree, even into the 2nd half of the season, our D was hanging in there.....but eventually it caught up with them. No D can play game after game after game, doing all they can and then watch as their O sags, and gives up the ball without making much of a dent. Motivation declines. And it's not that they are aren't motivated....but anyone can feel what they feel by considering this simple example: you work on a project where everyone ends up with the same score, and you do your very best every day, but your team does not respond accordingly. Instead of getting A's, like you deserve, you get mostly D's. But you give it your all, and each morning you start off with a very positive mindset, only to come home with little to show. The wind gets kicked out of you, and not because of your effort. Eventually you can break a little....maybe a lot. You might resort to doing more than you can, which further deteriorates the situation.

          I felt for our D. They just needed some help. And some help will bring back the A team.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
            I agree that, since he's on the roster getting paid like a starting RB, he should carry the load and that's how our offense worked best: with the #1 RB, Anderson, getting plenty of carries. I even have posts asking for that instead of a 3-RB rotation. However, with a $4.5 salary, he might become a cap casualty because we can get a more explosive runner with better big-play ability in this strong draft class and let Booker grind it out on inside runs. We can upgrade at RB and save some money to build the roster and that's what Elway might do.
            And the problem with the "big play, explosive" RB is that you have to center the offense around them and get them 20+ carries/game as well. Zeke doesn't just break 23/30 yard runs from snap #1. That offense goes through him. So we could take the #1 RB in the draft, but unless the commitment to give him the ball, instead of splitting carries with Henderson and Booker, he's not going to look so hot either. So unless we get away from the "committee" nonsense, the RB situation will continue to be a weak spot.
            #swapping

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            • #21
              Originally posted by flosstein View Post
              And the problem with the "big play, explosive" RB is that you have to center the offense around them and get them 20+ carries/game as well. Zeke doesn't just break 23/30 yard runs from snap #1. That offense goes through him. So we could take the #1 RB in the draft, but unless the commitment to give him the ball, instead of splitting carries with Henderson and Booker, he's not going to look so hot either. So unless we get away from the "committee" nonsense, the RB situation will continue to be a weak spot.
              Yes. We have to establish the run. We have to make teams adjust to our getting 4+ yds a carry and get ourselves in better down and distance for our QB. This makes even average QB's look great. A great RB or 2 can do this if, we emphasize run first.

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              • #22
                I'd be interested in a mix of #2 and #4.

                Minor rebuild with a Rookie starting day 1 if that rookie is either Darnald, Rosen or Allen

                I cannot get excited about Cousins with the kind of contract he'll demand and no thanks to Mayfield unless it's in the 2nd round

                Start a Rookie at QB, drop the dead weight, re-tool the D and O-line, let the young guys play on offense. I'll be patient

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by WYBRONCO View Post
                  Yes. We have to establish the run. We have to make teams adjust to our getting 4+ yds a carry and get ourselves in better down and distance for our QB. This makes even average QB's look great. A great RB or 2 can do this if, we emphasize run first.
                  That's the problem, CJ is more than capable of doing that. Our win percentage is insane when he's 20+carries. We don't need a great RB, just need to utilize what we have better. That's the problem with the entire offense and most of the team! We paid a stud LG........played him on the right. We have a massive AP/PB WR that's ALWAYS been a RZ threat........let's make the main read this season the 5th WR. We draft a DE......Let's make him a LB! And who need a TE! KR/PR proves to be fumble prone.......He'll work his way through it!

                  And the list goes on and on of the backwards way this team prepared week after week. But hey, we won the Practice SB!
                  #swapping

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                  • #24
                    I don't mean to be negative but I think we are in for a few more bad seasons before we get better

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                    • #25
                      Re-Building is a must, a QB and the O-line is top on the list.

                      Read this article about Tyrod Taylor and of all the speculation floating around Teams and there FA Quarterbacks this seems likely.

                      Prediction: Trade to Broncos

                      Perhaps the Bills are just forced to cut Taylor before his $6 million roster bonus is due in March. But he has done enough, I believe, to merit a pick in return on a contract that is very team friendly. John Elway's right-hand man, Gary Kubiak, knows Taylor well from his time with him in Baltimore and he fits the model of offense they would like to run there. He could hold things down while Lynch tries to finally get over the hurdles that have stalled his progress. Elway could still draft another quarterback, as well. But with the defense they still have there, landing a functional veteran QB who protects the football above all else seems like a good fit. And it won't cost much in terms of salary or trade compensation.

                      Question is How much input Kub's will have in the rebuild ( I believe Elway did bring him back to assist). As for the draft, they very well may go for that QB they feel is the future for the broncos unless they believe they can risk waiting for a later pick. There is a lineman that I like from Notre Dame (Nelson) who would be a starter for many teams (An we could use him).

                      LB, RB, FS, D-line are other needs and best available would be best. I think T.E. we have some guys that have not matured or been given their chance. OH-Yes, a young wideout that has that winiing attribute.

                      This I have seen with all the Hungry players that have played in the playoffs. Something some Bronco players have lost, and wonder if our coach can even show some enthusiasm on the sidelines.

                      It helps to be Lucky, But Skill is needed for the future.
                      Last edited by colowoz; 01-24-2018, 09:30 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
                        I'd go with major rebuild.

                        1) Draft a QB. We're in a special position with the #5 pick in a draft that's top-heavy at QB. If we get a QB at #5, the money saved with the rookie contract can be spent on several reinforcements and this team has a lot of needs. Sign a veteran backup to serve as a mentor, but the rookie QB starts from day one.

                        I don't think Elway can convince Kirk Cousins to come to Denver with this offensive line, this group of WRs that might not include D. Thomas and/or Sanders, no proven TE, no impact RB and a defense that might lose Talib, Wolfe (injury/cap casualty) and other pieces as the team makes moves to fit Cousins' salary into the cap.

                        2) Overhaul the offense. D. Thomas is not worth his salary and Sanders has become a distraction, one or both of them will be gone. The team needs an impact TE and we haven't seen Jake Butt yet. RT is a major need. There's no impact RB on the roster, only plodders and the unknown Henderson. The offense needs a lot of work besides QB, it will take a bunch of draft picks and salary cap to fix this.

                        3) Retool the defense. Talib is gone. We have to find a quality CB that can either play nickel or beat Roby for a starting job. Langley is a joke. a practice-squad project. Wolfe is constantly injured and might retire or become a cap casualty. There is a major need for inside pass rush. The LBs are gone in free agency and we need coverage LBs badly. We also need another edge rusher to stop wasting DeMarcus Walker at OLB.

                        4) But no, Vance Joseph is not safe, not even short term. He will be on the hot seat, coaching for his job this next season. If we start a rookie QB, the expectations will be lower, but Elway will pay attention to Joseph's decisions and how he's preparing this team. Another season with a bunch of blowout losses and the impression of an unprepared team will mean the end for Vance Joseph.
                        I really hope we have enough fire power to attract Cousins, here... this concerns me a lot-

                        I voted the second option, minor retool.

                        I swear, if we cut Talib, our defense will need to start over from scratch, it'll kill the entire operation. Roby should go before Talib. Talib has 2+ good years left. He is a lion, and a ball hawking game changer. Roby is a good athlete no doubt, but he doesn't have the "it" factor that Talib has... which is heart and soul to our defense.

                        A nasty defense. As much as Talib embarrasses us sometimes... we need him out there. Crabtree needed his chain yanked. Good for Denver VS. Raiders lore.

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                        • #27
                          Try and trade;
                          Thomas
                          Sanders
                          Marshall
                          Talib
                          Wolfe
                          For whatever you can get.

                          Either sit at #5 and get your QB or maneuver up a couple spots if needed. Build a team around your young QB. Get a real coach.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Zealander View Post
                            I really hope we have enough fire power to attract Cousins, here... this concerns me a lot-

                            I voted the second option, minor retool.

                            I swear, if we cut Talib, our defense will need to start over from scratch, it'll kill the entire operation. Roby should go before Talib. Talib has 2+ good years left. He is a lion, and a ball hawking game changer. Roby is a good athlete no doubt, but he doesn't have the "it" factor that Talib has... which is heart and soul to our defense.

                            A nasty defense. As much as Talib embarrasses us sometimes... we need him out there. Crabtree needed his chain yanked. Good for Denver VS. Raiders lore.
                            Torally agree. He just sets the tone and has an absolute mean streak

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                            • #29
                              Remember, football is won and lost in the trenches. Yes, that is still true today. Any quarterback looks better behind a strong line and a running game. If he has 4.5+ seconds to find a receiver, that will help greatly. Any defense will look much better is our defensive line can stop the run and give opposing quarterbacks 2.5 of less time to find a target.
                              As I have stated before, UNTIL our coaches show they can work with a young QB and change their system to match that young quarterbacks strength, there is no use drafting any quarterback in the first two or three rounds! He will just be a "bust" because he will spend his time running for his life! Please, fix the trenches FIRST!

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                              • #30
                                I can get both sides to it, but. The team was -17 in turnover differential, basically impossible to win like that. Having a QB who doesnt turn it over, can extend drives, keep the defense fresh would go a long way ala Cousins.Other thing on Cousins if they got him is they could go BPA or trade down a few spots with a QB needy team or just pick a different posiiton at 5. Get a QB with Kirk, and another position that is needed as well at 5.

                                The OL is better, not elite but much better than 15 and 16 seasons where it was bad, provided the team keeps adding to the OL.

                                Regarding the defense, they were top 5 in yards, and vs the run, and pass. Sacks were down but you cant get very creative on defense when you never have a lead in games. The PPG is a bit off base since they factor in pick sixes, and kick returns for PPG. Throw in short fields with all the turnovers and the defense is in an impossible chance to win games.

                                I'm a huge Mayfield fan but the nightmare scenario with needing a QB is let's say Browns go Darnold, Giants go Rosen (not buying them sticking with Eli), and Jets trade up with Indy for Mayfield then you pretty much have to take Allen who has a ton of flaws. He's a much better prospect than Lynch is but he isnt ready to play as a rookie.

                                Cap wise, i think Watson and CJ are probably cap casualties. Wont take much to upgrade over Watson and this is a very strong RB class in the draft.

                                I think they''ll work something out with DT.
                                Sanders i can see either way, there isnt a ton of savings in a trade or cut.
                                Talib will be interesting, as great as he is, i dont know if you can have your top 3 corners counting a combine 30 mil against the cap, thats a massive number.
                                Woods said this week Wolfe should be fine, and Marshall played with a torn labrum and there's absolutely nothing behind him although i'd figure they draft an ILB or two.

                                I get both sides if they wanna rebuild the roster and trade some veterans or re-work some contracts to try and win with Cousins who is a young 30 (only played 3.5 seasons, no real injury concerns to speak of)
                                Last edited by ERoyal248; 01-27-2018, 07:47 AM.

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