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  • PFF O-line rankings

    Denver #23 with Ronald Leary as our best lineman.


    https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...017-nfl-season

  • #2
    Years ago I used to chart Denver's offensive plays for each game. In 2011, I posted a summary each week. Using DVR, I often replayed each play at least five times to see what each O-Lineman did. When PFF posted their grades for O-Linemen in each game, I often wondered what they had observed. Their rankings didn't confirm what I had observed.

    This summary seems to emphasize pass protection. IMO evaluating O-Line play must include run blocking as well as pass protection. This PFF ranking focuses on pressures. Pass protection is not solely the function of the five O-Linemen. Ends and Backs are part of it, too. Some pressures and sacks are a result of coverage, or receivers not running routes properly not getting open. The game plan and play call is another factor.

    PFF just doesn't seem to take a comprehensive approach to their grades, evaluations and rankings. Besides pressures, how many sacks are surrendered and ypa in the rushing attack should be included. Maybe add pressures, sacks, rushing and passing ypa would give a more accurate number.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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    • #3
      Originally posted by gerontion View Post
      Denver #23 with Ronald Leary as our best lineman.


      https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...017-nfl-season
      Bolles...14 penalties...2nd most in the league.

      as far as PFF grades go...Ramczyk listed as saints best Olineman....why don't they listen to me????
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      • #4
        Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
        Bolles...14 penalties...2nd most in the league.

        as far as PFF grades go...Ramczyk listed as saints best Olineman....why don't they listen to me????
        i do feel like a bolles pentalies will go away if he doesn't have to cover the Garcia's pass blocking
        sigpic
        oakland raders gm
        latavis murray trade bait

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
          i do feel like a bolles pentalies will go away if he doesn't have to cover the Garcia's pass blocking
          I doubt it. It may improve with maturity and experience but I don't think it has much to do with garcia. that was his rep in college too.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
            I doubt it. It may improve with maturity and experience but I don't think it has much to do with garcia. that was his rep in college too.

            we can agree to disagree all i am gonna say Garcia was terrible last season and has never been a good pass protector and probably never will.
            sigpic
            oakland raders gm
            latavis murray trade bait

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            • #7
              Ram was a better, more polished lineman coming out of college AND several years younger. The Bolles pick wasn't a great one.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Joshua2585 View Post
                Ram was a better, more polished lineman coming out of college AND several years younger. The Bolles pick wasn't a great one.
                It wasn’t necessarily a bad one either though. Just appears to not have been the best we could do.

                But you also have to factor in that Brees makes his line look a lot better than our qbs did.

                I’m not excusing Bolles but I specifically recall a few sacks/holds on qbs holding the ball for an eternity. The colts game Siemian dropped himself ridiculously far back into a sack 13 yards behind the Los. When Bolles thought he had run the defender on around behind Siemian.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DenverBlood View Post
                  It wasn’t necessarily a bad one either though. Just appears to not have been the best we could do.

                  But you also have to factor in that Brees makes his line look a lot better than our qbs did.

                  I’m not excusing Bolles but I specifically recall a few sacks/holds on qbs holding the ball for an eternity. The colts game Siemian dropped himself ridiculously far back into a sack 13 yards behind the Los. When Bolles thought he had run the defender on around behind Siemian.
                  agreed
                  ....
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MH Stampede
                    Ask that again in a couple of years.

                    It is incredibly premature to rate the future of players who have played only 1 year. Some improve, some dramatically improve. Some never do improve. Honestly, there is just no way to know, in advance. We can speculate. We can...guess. We can hope for one or the other, but in the end, we CANNOT *know*.
                    Originally posted by Butler By'Note
                    After one year would people of rather had Eddie Royal or DeSean Jackson? One year does not make a career. Not saying which player will end up being better, but there's a lot of room for improvement from both players.
                    never said they wouldn't improve. However, Ramczyk was the better prospect coming out of college and so far has shown it on the field. Come on now....Bolles was 2nd in the league with Penalties and we all saw him struggle for whatever reason. the other was voted as best Oline on the team as a rookie. You really want to stand up and defend that?

                    Ramczyk is also 2 years younger than Bolles who will be 26 in a couple months. I want Bolles to be a successful long term option as much as you guys do. It's a rare thing for a 26 year old, 2nd year player, to overcome the same problems he was having in college.


                    Blurb about Ramczyk

                    Just 11 games into his bright career, the Saints’ “other” first round pick is playing at a Pro Bowl level as the offensive line has given up the fewest sacks (10, 3.6% Adj Sack Rate) in the league in addition to producing the fourth most rush yards (1440) and highest yards per average rush (4.8) as well.

                    Zach Strief was drafted in the seventh round of the 2006 NFL draft, but didn’t start in more than two games until 2011. In half a decade less of professional development, Ramzcyk is already so much better than Strief, it’s not even funny. With injuries to Strief, Terron Armstead, and Larry Warford throughout the season, Ramzyck has been an absolute god send by providing durability and efficiency as in invaluable cog in the Saints’ dominant offensive line which now ranks first in run blocking and third in pass protection.

                    If Ramzyck keeps playing at the same level, he will prove to be the best lineman from the 2017 NFL draft. C+, my ass, Pete Prisco.


                    Here is a blurb On Bolles from MHR:

                    Nothing kills an offensive drive for the Denver Broncos faster than an offensive holding penalty and rookie tackle Garett Bolles has been the most egregious repeat offender in 2017.

                    His technique has significantly degraded as the season has gone on as well, which makes you wonder if he has hit the dreaded rookie wall. I can recall on really bad play last week that resulted in a sack in which he came out of stance off balance and was completely blown up by Ryan Kerrigan.

                    Can he hold down the left tackle position long-term? I’m having my doubts, but he can certainly play right tackle if he can clean up his technique issues here lately.
                    Last edited by broncos SB2010; 03-13-2018, 05:05 PM.
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                    • #11
                      Are We Full Value For The Money?

                      I welcome you to discuss this topic with an open mind, which is what we should be doing naturally. And to clear the record, I am not saying we are not getting good value for the salaries we pay, but I am apprehensive.

                      You see, I keep hearing about our salary cap, and that we can not afford some FAs....so in that case, I would hope that we have a good roster overall, one that lives up to the contracts we have negotiated.

                      Just to expand a little on this topic, lets place our players in just 4 categories: Pro Bowler, Between Pro Bowl and Average (or simply Above Average), Average, and Below Average. I am not breaking down Below Average into more categories because anyone that falls here is one too many for my simple assessment. In fact, as you will see, I will hardly talk about the latter 2 categories.

                      So, how many Pro Bowlers do we have going forward. I would say 2 at least, Von and Harris. Talib was going to be borderline for '18, but he's gone.

                      Now, the next category - Above Average, and this is the one that really matters imo. Without carefully looking thru all the stats, I'd say we have somewhere between 5 and 10. I put Wolfe and Roby there, along with 3 weapons who may be slipping towards Average - CJ, DT and Sanders. Too early to tell with Case, and some others, who may take that next step upward. Our Oline is not all bad. But overall, not too many, and some are going south if you get my drift. Hopefully some of the youngins will pick it up in '18.

                      I will not tread in the Average and Below Average waters other than to say that every team has their share of average players, because that's what parity brings. As for Below, each one is one too many.

                      So my argument goes like this....if we are near capped out, and we have 10 or less Above Average and/or Pro Bowlers, are we getting our money's worth? Now, fair enough, maybe I am not thinking too hard about a few players, who might actually be AA after all. But I would suggest there are only a few more at most.

                      BUT even if I am basically correct about the talent level we have, it matters not in '18, because it only matters when they take the field. And hopefully a number of them will shine in the coming year. And for me, it's not how many Pro Bowlers we have, but it's how many we can slide into that Above Average category. That's the sweet spot, given PB is not something to be expected.

                      And for some, you may think that Average players can achieve great things. And I would concur...primarily if you have top quality coaching. I can not endorse that possibility based on what I know today.

                      What do you folks say?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
                        Bolles...14 penalties...2nd most in the league.

                        as far as PFF grades go...Ramczyk listed as saints best Olineman....why don't they listen to me????
                        How much does the QB factor into how good an Oline looks? I saw many plays where Bolles had his guy blocked and Trevor would leave the pocket and run right into the pass rush. Paxton can't read defenses so he consistently held the ball, allowing the pass rush to get to him. I didn't see Bolles get flat out beat often.

                        Also, consider the division and all the great pass rushers the AFC West has. It's a tough division for a rookie LT with only 2 years of Div. 1 college football experience.

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                        • #13
                          Are we forced to focus on value? Yes. Are we getting our money’s worth, you ask? No.

                          Here is where I think our players land.

                          Top tier: Von, CHJ, Leary

                          Second tier: D Stew, Peko, DT, Sanders, Paradis,

                          Third tier: Wolfe, Boles, C.J., Roby, Simmons, Marshall

                          Everyone else belongs in the bottom tiers, and would not be considered starter-caliber.

                          If we embrace value, we need to do a better job identifying and developing talent.

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                          • #14
                            Good post Can. You bring up a very interesting discussion.

                            I love the point that above average players are the biggest focal point in value addition.

                            I feel like we have 3 or 4 players on each side of the ball that are either below average or have significant deficiencies. Not necessarily "starters" only, but guys that play a lot.

                            The Todd Davis resigning symbolizes this issue that we're facing right now.

                            Todd is good in his role, and seems like a great guy. But he's truly terrible in pass coverage. He is definitely not an above average player. We had an opportunity to really improve at a vital position and we spent money to resign a player that hurts us as much as he helps us.

                            I have a feeling that we have lost sight of being a "Championship" caliber team for only wanting to be good enough to fairly evaluate Vance Joseph.

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                            • #15
                              If I were to start from scratch and had no feelings about any one team, and went thru a process of picking "my team", from a value perspective I would not rank Denver anywhere near the top. Now, we do not choose teams based on that parameter, usually it's because it's a geographic thing, or because we like players on a team. But if I was looking at value alone, this would not be my team. Just not enough Pro Bowl/Above Average players to date, for all that money, and minus top tier coaching overall.

                              However, that can change. If Case Keenum is the 2017 version, and we give him a little more talent around him, this team could exceed my expectations. On the downside, we have not signed anyone other than Case of note, and if we go QB at pick #5, we will still be looking for help. In some ways I almost hope we tie ourselves to Case for the next 2 years, and use our draft picks to firm up other key areas.....Oline/ILB/CB/RB/WR (pending FA signings/trades).
                              Last edited by CanDB; 03-15-2018, 11:56 AM.

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