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  • Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
    Yes... I would rather have any other combo as our HC-QB duo, in the NFL today, over Joseph/Keenum. Both crumbled under the weight of minimal expectations in early Oct... there’s no hope for success with these 2. We have the worst, this is reality, and this means the best we can hope for is the be a 7-9 type of scrappy club.
    Well said. This combo has proven crappy, especially Joseph who should never had made it through last year. This year is a wash and hopefully we clean house.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Humberg View Post
      Just a reality check. Looking at what Mahomes did tonight, what Mayfield has been doing, what Rosen looked like (even in a loss) yesterday, to some extent Allen and Darnold, Trubisky, it seems worth reflecting on our lack of participation in the "draft a young franchise QB game."

      So I keep hearing about what a great draft we had (this year of course, we can ignore the previous years drafts that have been horrid and not even worth defending). I'll agree our young draft picks seem promising. Ok, so the question is does good drafting of other positions make up for ignoring the QB position?

      For the game tonight would you rather have had a young, gunner franchise QB fresh off your #1 draft choice (Rosen for instance) or was it enough to see Chubb doing nothing, Sutton giving the game away, Freeman doing well but invisible in the second half, Hamilton catching punts reliably (which is not insignificant after the awful experiment last year with our draft pick) and Jewell being good but not impact? I would have traded all of these guys for a good QB.

      You know what, lets look at our last years draft - oh wait, its entirely forgettable featuring only one player, Bolles, and him being quite possibly the worst LT we have EVER had. Just where exactly are our draft choices showing up and someone explain to me why we didn't draft a #1 QB when we had the chance this year? And based on how our draft is going, I almost think it would have been worth packaging any combination of draft picks to move up and select the QB that Denver wanted, whomever it was. Because, frankly, it's more likely than not that we will bungle most of our upcoming picks based on past history. Does someone really want to make the argument that we are likely to strike gold with any future draft pick and its so precious that we had to hold onto it instead of using it to get a franchise QB?

      Since 2010, we have had roughly 72 draft picks, 16 are playing on the active roster. That's a hit rate of 22%. I wish I were the GM because I know what my pitch would be - "Please, someone take our draft picks and give us a franchise QB. Take whatever you feel its worth and leave the franchise QB at the door." I find myself red with Mahomes envy, Black with Trubisky envy, Green with Darnold envy, orange with Mayfield envy (although the Browns really gotta upgrade that color scheme IMO), and deeper red with Rosen envy. I would even be a little blue with Allen envy I suppose, although I think he's the least promising.

      A good QB could even make this ridiculous coaching staff look good.

      The high 1st round draft choice comes along so rarely, unless you are perpetually bad (which we might be headed for), you gotta make it count when you have it, especially in a year like last year with a bunch of QBs that have a decent shot of being special. We bungled it. Chubb has 1.5 sacks this year...........and we have no future at QB on this roster. If that hurts a bit, it should.
      Ransom our future for a QB , huh? Let me remind you of something. The 2015 Denver Broncos won the SUPER BOWL, with a QB who didn't even rank in the TOP 50!! A rating of 69%, Peyton didn't have a great year at ALL! The moves that Elway made that year, on Defense , and the coaches we had who could coach better than this staff in their sleep, more than made up for not having a "franchise QB"!

      I have faith he can do it again! Not this year, but he will. They will get an adequate QB, the core they have right now on Offense, at the skill positions, I wouldn't trade. The O line is playing better than they have in years. They need to pick it up on defense. And they need to totally retool the secondary.


      Does ANYONE, seriously,,,, really think KC is going to the Super Bowl, with THAT defense??? Not me.
      sigpicoh YEAH?

      Comment


      • I mentioned this in another thread but id be fine with them trying to go all out for tua or fromm. Seems this year is a good year to get oline,cb, lb and dline help in first round. I would say wr too but thats not an immediate need. Stidham, grier, lock and herbert are qbs this year. Can you point to any of them at this point and go "thats my fanchise qb"?

        With tua and fromm, you know they arent 8 play overachievers in college. They stepped onto biggest college stage and showed that it wasnt too big for them.
        Glen Haven Fire

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        • I would rather see what we have in Chad Kelly before trading draft picks.

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          • Originally posted by armedequation View Post
            I mentioned this in another thread but id be fine with them trying to go all out for tua or fromm. Seems this year is a good year to get oline,cb, lb and dline help in first round. I would say wr too but thats not an immediate need. Stidham, grier, lock and herbert are qbs this year. Can you point to any of them at this point and go "thats my fanchise qb"?

            With tua and fromm, you know they arent 8 play overachievers in college. They stepped onto biggest college stage and showed that it wasnt too big for them.
            i agree completely. i feel Tua and Fromm are franchise QB i'd build an offense around. i really like tua i have been watching them both from the elite 11 to now. they have elite talent, but what else they have that will put them over is Elite Work Eithic and they are both very inteligent. i was very impressed by Tua and Tualia from the elite. i know one hasn't taken a snap in college, but i bet they are the next set very successful brothers.
            sigpic
            oakland raders gm
            latavis murray trade bait

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            • DEN has drafted their "franchise QB" numerous times. How many times did it work out?
              "Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion." Jimmy Ruffin

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              • KAreem Hunt Fined for a hit that should has been illegal but wan't flagged

                Chiefs running back Kareem Hunt was fined $26,739 for unnecessary roughness, stemming from what the NFL's head of officiating deemed illegal lowering of the helmet, NFL Network's Tom Pelissero reported.


                Even the nfl officials are addmiting that was terribly officiated game.
                sigpic
                oakland raders gm
                latavis murray trade bait

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Humberg View Post
                  I think I've made it pretty clear with all the other posts, and I've responded to you even if my ire for you came out at Humcalc, but you intrigue me with your healthy discussion invite. The game is afoot. So here goes:

                  1) We need a QB if we are really going to be serious about winning (QB is the most important position on the team)
                  2) We are most likely to find a good QB by drafting one in the first round (not a guarantee I realize, but most likely odds of doing so)
                  3) We should prioritize this above all else given that it is the most important position on the team.

                  In simple terms, find your guy in the draft. Once you find him, you may have to move up to ensure nobody else gets him. Be willing to pay for this.....and we wouldn't be in this situation had the Broncos drafted wisely in this past draft.

                  I don't see how anyone can argue with this, so to you it goes......
                  Originally posted by 18Broncos View Post
                  Alrighty.
                  I see that you had backed off the original premise a bit; you have now settled for ANY QB in the first round (if I'm mistaken, let me know).
                  ....

                  Now, as I had said, I was originally in the club of "drafting a QB high in the first, but not if you have to sell the farm to trade up" some years ago, but I had since changed my "strategy" to "explore all venues and make a decision with both a long-term view and a shor-term plan; you win with a team - not with just the QB - and there are different ways to build a team".

                  .....

                  So, my first counterpoint to the "draft high in the first philosophy" is to look at all the QBs that had ever played in the Super Bowls.
                  I had looked at them all, but had never saved the "study".

                  Let me just go over the first five Super Bowls at this time.
                  - Bart Starr, Packers (17th Rounder - ie. drafted in the 17th round)
                  - Len Dawson, Chiefs (FA). Chiefs was his third team.
                  - Bart Starr (second SB)
                  - Daryle Lamonica, Raiders (12th Rd)
                  - JOE NAMATH, New York Jets (TRUE 1st Rd) - The first true first round QB that played in a SB.
                  - Earl Morrall, Baltimore Colts (FA); Colts was his fifth team.
                  - LEN DAWSON, Chiefs (FA); Dawson's 2nd trip to the SB as a free agent.
                  - Joe Kapp, Minnesota Vikings (18th rd)
                  - JOHNNY UNITAS, Baltimore Colts (9th rd)
                  - Craig Morton, Dallas Cowboys (TRUE 1st Rd ***).
                  ........

                  So through the first five Super Bowls, there were just 2/10 QBs that were drafted in the first round.

                  *** And Morton was a special case.
                  He was a back-up during his first 4 years in the league. He only got the start in his fifth year because Don Meridith abruptly decided to retire.
                  Morton led the Cowboys to the playoffs, but lost the first game (going 8-24 for 92 yards, 0TD and 2 Ints).

                  Morton was a starter for 13 games the next year.
                  The Cowboys went to the playoffs again, and reached the SB despite of Morton; his pissed-poor performance in the playoffs can be seen on a statistic site like ProFootballReference.
                  Get Craig Morton 1970 game log for regular season and playoff games on Pro-football-reference.com.


                  Morton lost the starting gig the next year to Staubach.
                  He became the starter again when Staubach got injured the year after that.
                  The Cowboys finally traded him in 1975.
                  He became a journeyman that would come to Denver later on for that last hurrah.

                  So, even though Morton was a firsr rounder, he was never entranched as a franchise QB.

                  ......

                  In another word, out of the 10 QB spots in the first 5 SBs, only one (Joe Namath) is a true franchise QB that was drafted in the first round.

                  .....

                  You can continue with more SBs, or you could wait until I get to them later.
                  OK, so now I'm up to Super Bowl 25.
                  Of the 50 QB spots in those games, just 17 were occupied by 1st round draft choices.
                  8 were Free Agents (being with their third to fith team at the time they play in the SB.)
                  25 were drafted in the 2nd round or lower.

                  The 17 spots occupied by first rounders were:
                  Joe Namath, Craig Morton, Bob Griese (3 times), Terry Bradshaw (4 times), Dan Marino, Jim McMahon, Tony Eason, Phil Simms, John Elway (3), and Jim Kelly.

                  That's only 10 QBs.
                  And out of those 10, at most 7 would qualify as franchise QBs.
                  Morton, McMahon, and Eason are journeymen.
                  Also, Bradshaw and Simms had had fairly rocky starts to their career.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 18Broncos View Post
                    OK, so now I'm up to Super Bowl 25.
                    Of the 50 QB spots in those games, just 17 were occupied by 1st round draft choices.
                    8 were Free Agents (being with their third to fith team at the time they play in the SB.)
                    25 were drafted in the 2nd round or lower.

                    The 17 spots occupied by first rounders were:
                    Joe Namath, Craig Morton, Bob Griese (3 times), Terry Bradshaw (4 times), Dan Marino, Jim McMahon, Tony Eason, Phil Simms, John Elway (3), and Jim Kelly.

                    That's only 10 QBs.
                    And out of those 10, at most 7 would qualify as franchise QBs.
                    Morton, McMahon, and Eason are journeymen.
                    Also, Bradshaw and Simms had had fairly rocky starts to their career.
                    Wow. I really appreciate the time you are taking to do this. But let me help you out because I think a different strategy would work better. You are going back like 30 years and working forward. Today's pass happy NFL is so much different than it was back then and it's much more dependent on the quarterback. So what Bradshaw or Simms did back in the day (which I will disagree with you, I think they were quite impressive), isn't relevant.

                    Instead, find me the franchise qbs of the NFL today and tell me how many were first round draft picks. Or tell me of the recent past, say since 2007, how many Superbowl qbs were first rounders (I'll help you out, of the 24 quarterbacks 13 were first rounders, 6 were Tom Brady who is a statistical outlier and deeply skews the analysis, anyone who knows modeling would say he should not be factored into any kind of predictive model, so only 5 of the Superbowl qbs were drafted outside the first round not named Tom Brady). Or just tell me where is the most likely place to find a franchise qb if not in the first round (since that seems to be your argument). Or simply tell me why you don't want a good quarterback because I guess that's the last thing you could argue.

                    I guess I'm having a hard time with your posts, you seem to be arguing against my suggested approach without really suggesting one yourself. Or is this current version of the Broncos your ideal approach? Lesser qbs we overpay for to get mediocre results? Tell me what you know.
                    The only place that success comes before work is in the dictionary. - Vince Lombardi

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Humberg View Post
                      Wow.....

                      Instead, find me the franchise qbs of the NFL today and tell me how many were first round draft picks. Or tell me of the recent past, say since 2007, how many Superbowl qbs were first rounders (I'll help you out, of the 24 quarterbacks 13 were first rounders, 6 were Tom Brady who is a statistical outlier and deeply skews the analysis, anyone who knows modeling would say he should not be factored into any kind of predictive model, so only 5 of the Superbowl qbs were drafted outside the first round not named Tom Brady). Or just tell me where is the most likely place to find a franchise qb if not in the first round (since that seems to be your argument). Or simply tell me why you don't want a good quarterback because I guess that's the last thing you could argue.....

                      I guess I'm having a hard time with your posts, you seem to be arguing against my suggested approach without really suggesting one yourself. Or is this current version of the Broncos your ideal approach? Lesser qbs we overpay for to get mediocre results? Tell me what you know.
                      I don't think anyone is debating that if you have the #1 pick in the draft you have a greater chance of getting an elite QB, but the selling the farm for a high draft pick QB has tremendous flaws, as most high draft pick QB's flame out or fail rise above mediocrity. The last 5 SB's have been won by one #1 draft pick signed as a FA, two have been won by a 6rd pick and two have been won by 3rd round picks.

                      After pick 11 in the draft there is very little success in drafting elite QBs! In the last 15 drafts has only produced three QBs drafted with picks 12-32 that have won playoff games - Aaron Rogers, Joe Flacco and Tim Tebow.

                      Andrew Luck was the highest rated QB going into the draft after Elway and as great as he is and as much as he has achieved it is the "too short" 3rd rounder on a low contract with a generational defense that has had the most success. How do you think a team that sold their future in 2010 to draft Bradford would fare compared to the route Broncos took? Which QB in the 2011 draft would you have sold the farm for - would you have given Von Miller + a 1st ex for Cam Newton?

                      The key to winning it all is balance and that is on the team. History has shown that an elite QB - like Peyton Manning, John Elway, Andrew Luck, Aaron Rogers.... can carry a team to the playoffs pretty much every year, but when you meet the "Big Boys" you have to have the complete team and getting that requires deep draft success, great coaching and complete team.

                      A simple fact is no QB making top 10 QB salary has won the Superbowl for a very long time, and a huge part of Tom Brady's success is that he lets his team have money to pay non QBs.
                      Last edited by BroncoFanDK; 10-07-2018, 04:02 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
                        http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...or-illegal-hit

                        Even the nfl officials are addmiting that was terribly officiated game.

                        Yeah I remember that play.

                        Hell every time I see an offensive player lower his head I just sit there like "I bet he won't get flagged for lowering his head"...and so far I haven't seen it flagged once.

                        And I'm not talking about offensive players that reflexively lower their heads just before absorbing a hit, I'm talking about the offensive players that purposely lower their heads to use as battering rams just before they 'truck' the defensive tackler.

                        A lot good these 'admitted' bad/missed calls do after the fact. Something better needs to be done in-game like having NFL Offices calling in to stop play when obvious calls are 'missed'.
                        Last edited by Mel B.; 10-07-2018, 06:53 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Forget using "pay" as a criteria. Player contracts, particularly the supersonic QB contracts, are really difficult to gauge. They are often back end loaded with all sorts of guarantee clauses, etc. My point being that deciding who is the top paid QBs are can only be figured for a particular year and if you do that, how do you then account for guaranteed money, next years contract, etc. You could argue there is limited correlation to what you pay to a QB to his performance, but I think you'd lose that. The only way that doesn't correlate is those on a rookie contract. If you have a good QB, you will pay him regardless of where he was drafted (Kirk Cousins).
                          Outside of Tom Brady as the ultimate outlier, the ONLY QBs not drafted in the first round to be really good are functions of weird circumstances. While Derek Carr has yet to be "great" with his 87 passer rating to date, he is good. He went early in the 2nd round because he put up so-so numbers at Fresno St and the way his brother tended to flame out.
                          Drew Brees and Russel Wilson both had the too short problem, but Brees was drafted high in the second round and Wilson was not only short but only 2 college seasons of note and messed around with baseball. Brees wasn't a surprise but Wilson was. And, btw, K Cousins was drafted after Wilson and one could argue had he not gone to the Redskins with a RGIII flameout, he might have been on the dust heap of low drafted QBs and been a backup.
                          Actually, I don't know why anyone would argue against selecting a QB high (not necessarily #1 overall as that means your team is junk) or even trading draft capital to run up in the draft to get your guy - a franchise QB is worth about anything you pay to get him.
                          As far as the balance issue, sure having a complete team gets you closer to the SB win, but of the teams with great QBs you mentioned that didn't win the SBs, I can guarantee the reason the Broncos didn't have a complimentary running game or defense to go along with a great offense in those years they lost the SB was NOT because of what they paid in draft stock or salary to Elway and Manning. First off, you'll note those QBs were also the ones who GOT SB wins, and second, Elway's teams didn't miss on defensive stars because of him, and Manning's loss to Seattle was more of a crappy set of EXTREMELY overpaid wide receivers going against Seattle.
                          BTW, we still have the 4th highest paid receiver corps in the NFL (in 2016 we were #1 paying receivers) and pay more than double teams like the Steelers, Chiefs, Pantehrs, Saints...
                          Bottom line, it's nearly impossible to draft a great QB outside the first round. Teams gamble on those 1st rounders every year, passing up good Dlinemen, etc, to get a chance at striking gold with a QB. We could kid ourselves because of our Paxton Lynch disaster, but we'd be better off just admitting we made a mistake with Lynch but we need to SWING at that next pitch

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                          • I just reread your post and think I was attacking the drafting a QB as the only take on it - and that was wrong. You make a great point that you MUST have a deep draft every year. I don't recall the stats but a relatively large percentage of any NFL team turns over every year. True the big time starters do tend to stay but the backups and ST players change a lot. And with a tight salary cap its critical you find some gems in the later rounds. To get a complete team, you are right, that you need to draft well in ALL rounds.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mel B. View Post
                              Yeah I remember that play.

                              Hell every time I see an offensive player lower his head I just sit there like "I bet he won't get flagged for lowering his head"...and so far I haven't seen it flagged once.

                              And I'm not talking about offensive players that reflexively lower their heads just before absorbing a hit, I'm talking about the offensive players that purposely lower their heads to use as battering rams just before they 'truck' the defensive tackler.

                              A lot good these 'admitted' bad/missed calls do after the fact. Something better needs to be done in-game like having NFL Offices calling in to stop play when obvious calls are 'missed'.
                              They don’t call them because they don’t help to add to the point total and that’s all the league is worried about because to them points equal more money. Until ratings start to go down they won’t listen to the hardcore fans that care about the actual integrity of the game.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
                                i agree completely. i feel Tua and Fromm are franchise QB i'd build an offense around. i really like tua i have been watching them both from the elite 11 to now. they have elite talent, but what else they have that will put them over is Elite Work Eithic and they are both very inteligent. i was very impressed by Tua and Tualia from the elite. i know one hasn't taken a snap in college, but i bet they are the next set very successful brothers.
                                I doubt we would have to trade up. The only bad teams that would draft a QB in the first round would be Broncos and Miami. Everyone else already has a quality starters or young QBs that their team has invested in.

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