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  • This is crazytrain....

    On the eve of what will, mark my words, go down as another poor decision in a long line of them, I am reflecting on the state of the organization. A lot has been written about ownership, Elway's decisions as GM, the rotating coaching door, lack of a QB etc. But my beef tonight is how they are going about this new coaching hire. And I'm talking about the process here instead of the actual people (because it won't matter). This situation that they've created to hire the next head coach is just downright screwy. It's bonkers. It's madhouse.

    We are retaining coaches on the current coaching staff before we even have a HC in place? Kubiak has been promised a position on the offensive side coaching, perhaps even offensive coordinator? What gives?

    It seems like the talk around the media and their sources around the league is that this is insane. You hire a coach but don't even let him choose his right hand men and coaches/coordinators? Do you want to hamstring them and let them start with one hand tied behind their back from the get-go?

    From what I've heard, and admittedly I'm no expert, you have to have extreme solidarity and trust at the coaching level across the coordinators, position coaches and the head coach. You can't have guys that are Fangio/Munchak guys and guys that are Elway guys. You can't have the head coach looking over their shoulder every time they say something at a players meeting wondering if Elway's guys are going to tell the boss.

    The whole thing just smacks of fail. We certainly saw elements of this throughout the past 2 years when Vance was handed his coaching staff and that didn't work. I think there are plenty of examples around the league of owners or GMs that fail to stay in the box and instead want to be a part time head coach. It doesn't work. That's the stuff of the Raiders, that's very Al Davis (although a very respectful RIP is placed here).

    This Kubiak situation is wonkers. We block him from going anywhere, but he doesn't want the HC position, so what promise him OC? Just either stay in the front office, or be the head coach, but don't straddle the fence and undercut the new guy. Yeah, that's awesome.

    If we have a lot of our positional coaches staying in place, and potentially have someone slotted in as offensive coordinator (who you could argue is the most important coach on the team second to the head coach), then it's no wonder we aren't getting the better coaching candidates coming here to interview. Who would want to come here without even close to the usual authority afforded a head coach? Neither Fangio nor Munchak have any other HC options, and other big name coaches didn't even consider us. That's where we are. Now, both might be great as coordinators, but we are the ONLY team that is considering making them a HC. We are the ONLY team that considered Taylor as a HC. Am I missing something? Why does our list seem to be different than everybody else's? Could it be that this is a terrible situation for any head coach to come into?

    Back when Elway came to this team it was a similar situation, they hired Fox as one of the only reputable coaches that would come here (and didn't have any other options) because the organization was in the pooper. We praised Elway for salvaging a sinking ship. Now, this mess is all John Elway's. And there is no adult in the organization to slap his hand.

    Elway, Ellis and whatever Bowlen happens to be in the house needs to wake up and tell the GM of this organization to, in the words of Brandon Stokely, "make the hire John and get out of the way."

    If he doesn't, and it doesn't look like he will, I give this next head coaching regime 2 years, 3 years tops before we are doing this all over again. The reason? Fail before it even begins.
    To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

  • #2
    OMG...if a coach can't pick his entire staff he can't possibly succeed!

    It's like...impossible to work within constraints!

    Utterly inconceivable that an incoming coach might actually be excited about some of the existing staff!

    Comment


    • #3
      There is a lot to take in here, I'm just going to point out that the candidates obviously want Kubiak or they wouldn't be excepting the job. The positional coaches are staying only until the new HC determines if he wants to retain them or not. They arent being against their will or anything stupid like that. The new HC will put together his own staff once hes in house and it will be his call on the current coaches

      Comment


      • #4
        Interesting read and confirms the problem is bigger than not having a QB or HC. It starts at the top and they may just not have it right.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post
          There is a lot to take in here, I'm just going to point out that the candidates obviously want Kubiak or they wouldn't be excepting the job. The positional coaches are staying only until the new HC determines if he wants to retain them or not. They arent being against their will or anything stupid like that. The new HC will put together his own staff once hes in house and it will be his call on the current coaches
          Well...to be fair the candidates they chose were chosen in part because of their willingness to accept Kubiak as an assistant or coordinator.
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Humberg View Post
            On the eve of what will, mark my words, go down as another poor decision in a long line of them, I am reflecting on the state of the organization. A lot has been written about ownership, Elway's decisions as GM, the rotating coaching door, lack of a QB etc. But my beef tonight is how they are going about this new coaching hire. And I'm talking about the process here instead of the actual people (because it won't matter). This situation that they've created to hire the next head coach is just downright screwy. It's bonkers. It's madhouse.

            We are retaining coaches on the current coaching staff before we even have a HC in place? Kubiak has been promised a position on the offensive side coaching, perhaps even offensive coordinator? What gives?

            It seems like the talk around the media and their sources around the league is that this is insane. You hire a coach but don't even let him choose his right hand men and coaches/coordinators? Do you want to hamstring them and let them start with one hand tied behind their back from the get-go?

            From what I've heard, and admittedly I'm no expert, you have to have extreme solidarity and trust at the coaching level across the coordinators, position coaches and the head coach. You can't have guys that are Fangio/Munchak guys and guys that are Elway guys. You can't have the head coach looking over their shoulder every time they say something at a players meeting wondering if Elway's guys are going to tell the boss.

            The whole thing just smacks of fail. We certainly saw elements of this throughout the past 2 years when Vance was handed his coaching staff and that didn't work. I think there are plenty of examples around the league of owners or GMs that fail to stay in the box and instead want to be a part time head coach. It doesn't work. That's the stuff of the Raiders, that's very Al Davis (although a very respectful RIP is placed here).

            This Kubiak situation is wonkers. We block him from going anywhere, but he doesn't want the HC position, so what promise him OC? Just either stay in the front office, or be the head coach, but don't straddle the fence and undercut the new guy. Yeah, that's awesome.

            If we have a lot of our positional coaches staying in place, and potentially have someone slotted in as offensive coordinator (who you could argue is the most important coach on the team second to the head coach), then it's no wonder we aren't getting the better coaching candidates coming here to interview. Who would want to come here without even close to the usual authority afforded a head coach? Neither Fangio nor Munchak have any other HC options, and other big name coaches didn't even consider us. That's where we are. Now, both might be great as coordinators, but we are the ONLY team that is considering making them a HC. We are the ONLY team that considered Taylor as a HC. Am I missing something? Why does our list seem to be different than everybody else's? Could it be that this is a terrible situation for any head coach to come into?

            Back when Elway came to this team it was a similar situation, they hired Fox as one of the only reputable coaches that would come here (and didn't have any other options) because the organization was in the pooper. We praised Elway for salvaging a sinking ship. Now, this mess is all John Elway's. And there is no adult in the organization to slap his hand.

            Elway, Ellis and whatever Bowlen happens to be in the house needs to wake up and tell the GM of this organization to, in the words of Brandon Stokely, "make the hire John and get out of the way."

            If he doesn't, and it doesn't look like he will, I give this next head coaching regime 2 years, 3 years tops before we are doing this all over again. The reason? Fail before it even begins.
            You're definitely incorrect about Munchak not having HC options.

            https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...hing-vacancies

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree with the OP. Hire a coach and give the autonomy. It’s bigger than that though because if the coach were fired, Kubs would be likely replacement so the new coach will be looking over his shoulder. Not exactly a recipe for success imo.
              Bronco Fan from DC (previously Baltimore)

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't have a problem with Elway holding the assistant coaches to their contracts as long as the new HC has final say over his staff. The new HC will be announced in the next 48 hours, and then it's time to build the staff. What if he wants to keep Bill Kollar, one of the top DL coaches in the game? What if he wants to work with Sean Kugler, who did a good job working with an OL filled with injuries and is drawing interest from other teams? We do have some good assistant coaches that can be retained. I would not like to see them leave until the new HC says who he wants. What's absurd is for Elway to build the staff instead of the HC. I hope that does not happen.

                I think the Kubiak situation is being blown out of proportion. Adam Schefter said Kubiak would like to stay in Denver anyway. It would sound better if the reports indicated that Kubiak has declined the requests for interviews, but I don't believe Elway would make Kubiak a prisoner if he wanted to leave and be an OC elsewhere. Kubiak will stay with the Broncos because he wants to. Will he become the OC? I hope the HC makes this decision, not Elway.

                To be honest, I think Elway is close to deserving to be fired based on what he's done the last 3 seasons. He conducted a HC search and put his stamp of approval on a coach that he fired after 2 seasons, and that's because Ellis prevented Elway from firing Joseph after 1 season. He can't find a serviceable QB after Peyton Manning, missed on QBs in the draft twice, back-to-back losing seasons, 5 out of his last 6 first-round picks were misses and he has not drafted a Pro Bowler for the Broncos since the 2011 class. He can't pick QBs, can't pick o-linemen.

                If the Broncos have a third consecutive losing season in 2019, Ellis might have to step up and do something about it. Elway was a nice boost after the McDaniels era and I thank him for bringing Peyton Manning, but I believe the Broncos would greatly benefit from a more professional front office with a traditional GM that has a real scouting background. John Dorsey, Chris Ballard; we need this kind of GM to turn things around instead of a former QB winging it as a GM.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jonny_Quest View Post
                  OMG...if a coach can't pick his entire staff he can't possibly succeed!

                  It's like...impossible to work within constraints!

                  Utterly inconceivable that an incoming coach might actually be excited about some of the existing staff!



                  It all remains to be seen but the OP makes a good point about forcing your own coaching personnel on a new HC.

                  I’m not saying that Elway is setting anybody up to fail but in a sense that is what this could lead to.

                  The new head coach should have the option to choose his entire staff. No offense towards Elway but he needs to make a hire and then get the hell out of the way if he truly wants the broncos to succeed.

                  I love Kubiak but we cant have these hybrid systems. It didn’t work well in 2015 and I don’t think it’s going to work very well in 2019.

                  What I mean by that is Mike Munchak’s offensive style and line consist of big powerful mallers. Gary’s consist of smaller lighter mobile zone blocking offensive linemen.

                  The line men are completely different and there’s no way we can meet in the middle. I for one feel if Munchak is hired and he doesn’t want Gary, Well then Gary would have to go.

                  Like Ive already said, I’m not discrediting Gary or his style. I for one believe it works and works great if it can be perfected because it’s really hard to stop.

                  However we can’t bring in an offensive line guru and force Garys style on him, it just won’t bode well!
                  Last edited by Sam_Z; 01-08-2019, 08:07 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
                    I don't have a problem with Elway holding the assistant coaches to their contracts as long as the new HC has final say over his staff. The new HC will be announced in the next 48 hours, and then it's time to build the staff. What if he wants to keep Bill Kollar, one of the top DL coaches in the game? What if he wants to work with Sean Kugler, who did a good job working with an OL filled with injuries and is drawing interest from other teams? We do have some good assistant coaches that can be retained. I would not like to see them leave until the new HC says who he wants. What's absurd is for Elway to build the staff instead of the HC. I hope that does not happen.

                    I think the Kubiak situation is being blown out of proportion. Adam Schefter said Kubiak would like to stay in Denver anyway. It would sound better if the reports indicated that Kubiak has declined the requests for interviews, but I don't believe Elway would make Kubiak a prisoner if he wanted to leave and be an OC elsewhere. Kubiak will stay with the Broncos because he wants to. Will he become the OC? I hope the HC makes this decision, not Elway.

                    To be honest, I think Elway is close to deserving to be fired based on what he's done the last 3 seasons. He conducted a HC search and put his stamp of approval on a coach that he fired after 2 seasons, and that's because Ellis prevented Elway from firing Joseph after 1 season. He can't find a serviceable QB after Peyton Manning, missed on QBs in the draft twice, back-to-back losing seasons, 5 out of his last 6 first-round picks were misses and he has not drafted a Pro Bowler for the Broncos since the 2011 class. He can't pick QBs, can't pick o-linemen.

                    If the Broncos have a third consecutive losing season in 2019, Ellis might have to step up and do something about it. Elway was a nice boost after the McDaniels era and I thank him for bringing Peyton Manning, but I believe the Broncos would greatly benefit from a more professional front office with a traditional GM that has a real scouting background. John Dorsey, Chris Ballard; we need this kind of GM to turn things around instead of a former QB winging it as a GM.
                    Elway was merely a "nice boost?" I'm sure part of the reason Manning signed here was because of all that offensive talent on the team, some of those pieces drafted or signed by Elway. Then of course there's the all time great defense Elway assembled by himself, many of them drafted. You say Elway doesn't have a scouting background, and it's true his offensive selections have not been great. But the defense? He's been very good on that side of the ball. I'm not saying Elway deserves a lifetime job, but calling him a "nice boost" is just way off. He's a major reason why this team added a 3rd Lombardi.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
                      Well...to be fair the candidates they chose were chosen in part because of their willingness to accept Kubiak as an assistant or coordinator.
                      So you are arguing that right now there are other suitors out there for Munchak? Bunk. He has exactly ONE option right now. Oh sure, their names may have been floated and stuff, but look at who actually interviewed. The only name in common with the Broncos list, is Fangio with the Dolphins, and they didn't interview him.

                      We are looking through the scrap heap of the pile. Great job.

                      https://sports.yahoo.com/roundup-who...011726851.html
                      Last edited by Humberg; 01-08-2019, 08:49 PM.
                      To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by gerontion View Post
                        Elway was merely a "nice boost?" I'm sure part of the reason Manning signed here was because of all that offensive talent on the team, some of those pieces drafted or signed by Elway. Then of course there's the all time great defense Elway assembled by himself, many of them drafted. You say Elway doesn't have a scouting background, and it's true his offensive selections have not been great. But the defense? He's been very good on that side of the ball. I'm not saying Elway deserves a lifetime job, but calling him a "nice boost" is just way off. He's a major reason why this team added a 3rd Lombardi.
                        Elway is a major reason why the team won a 3rd Super Bowl, and the main responsible for 3 consecutive seasons without playoffs and the first back-to-back losing seasons since 1972. Overall, he missed on 5 consecutive draft classes. He hired Vance Joseph, did not renew Wade Phillips [who also was one of the major reasons why this team added the 3rd Lombardi] contract to promote "rising star" Joe Woods. The luster is starting to fade. It will be harder to cling to the 2015-2016 SB run to defend Elway if the team remains at the bottom by 2020.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Humberg View Post
                          So you are arguing that right now there are other suitors out there for Munchak? Bunk. He has exactly ONE option right now. Oh sure, their names may have been floated and stuff, but look at who actually interviewed.
                          https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...from-dolphins/

                          Report: Mike Munchak turned down interview request from Dolphins

                          Posted by Charean Williams on January 7, 2019, 4:11 PM EST

                          Steelers offensive line coach Mike Munchak turned down an interview request from the Dolphins for their head coaching position, Aditi Kinkhabwala of NFL Media reports.

                          Munchak, 58, withdrew from consideration for the Cardinals job last year after they wanted to interview him a second time.

                          Munchak reportedly has “strong interest” in the Broncos job.

                          The Hall of Fame offensive lineman coached the Titans from 2011-13, going 22-26. He has served as offensive line coach in Pittsburgh for the past five years.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gerontion View Post
                            Elway was merely a "nice boost?" I'm sure part of the reason Manning signed here was because of all that offensive talent on the team, some of those pieces drafted or signed by Elway. Then of course there's the all time great defense Elway assembled by himself, many of them drafted. You say Elway doesn't have a scouting background, and it's true his offensive selections have not been great. But the defense? He's been very good on that side of the ball. I'm not saying Elway deserves a lifetime job, but calling him a "nice boost" is just way off. He's a major reason why this team added a 3rd Lombardi.
                            I agree he’s was good for the defense throughout his first few years as a GM

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by -Rod- View Post
                              https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...from-dolphins/



                              Ok, so I stand corrected. But at the end of the day, we are still talking about Mike Munchak here. Where is Mike McCarthy? Where is Bruce Ariens? Where are some of the hot talents from college? We got nothing. It's a bad job, people know it. Elway is micromanaging. This is going to be some weird hybrid coaching regime via Fangio/Munchak, Kubiak, and Elway. It's bad.

                              And how do you know it's bad? Elway said we need to evolve our offense to include some of the latest college concepts. Who are we hiring? Munchak/Kubes, or Fangio/Kubes. Yeah, that's evolving. Not because we didn't want to, but because we couldn't. We COULDN'T, We couldn't find someone to come here that was qualified to do this. Either Elway, or Ellis had a beef with them (Gase, McD), or the situation just couldn't attract them (college ranks, Harbaugh, Shaw etc). Even among the old guard, we couldn't attract or make a good hire work (McCarthy, Ariens, Toub). And don't get me wrong, I'm not upset because Munchak or Fangio would be bad HC's elsewhere, because I have no reason to believe that. I'm upset because I don't think ANYONE could come in here and do a good job with the way the situation has been set up. You hire someone and stack the room with guys that aren't his. How does that make sense?

                              Please, someone argue that this is being managed well. Point to a situation where the GM/Owner has meddled this much and it payed off. I don't think you can, but I would love to be proven wrong. My Broncos are swirling, this makes me ill. I'm going to go have a taco.

                              This is sick, and I don't mean the good kind either.
                              To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

                              Comment

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