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  • Saddletramp
    replied
    Humberg: I'll grant you that Elway went out and got one heck of a defensive coordinator (which might get us back the lost ground when he stupidly let Wade Phillips walk), but he major failed to evolve or change the offensive side of the ball which has been our Achilles heel for years now.
    Yon hit the nail on the head right there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Humberg
    replied
    Wow, Kubiak out. I guess my rant was proven wrong. I...I don't even know what to say... My god, it's full of stars...

    Leave a comment:


  • Rich_C
    replied
    Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    He thought Cleveland was the perfect opportunity, and the Front Office is full of guys that have worked with him before. He overplayed his hand.

    He's not a good coach, that's why he's not being fought over the way I'm sure he thought he would be. The Super Bowl is nice, but he's had the best QB for years and they've done nothing with it. Add in that when that QB hasn't played they haven't even looked competent. Whenever he gets hired, he will be fired 2 years later.
    When a team spends top dollar on A.Rodgers like he demands then it is VERY difficult to field a competent backup. The Packers seem to look at each group and they set max $$ for those players. To me that make zero sense. What is also unfair is that McCarthy had ZERO say of who was on the roster.

    Now - all of that said. I agree. McCarthy is really not that good of a HC. Winning that SB is great. That said he seemingly has not motivated that team in years. He also should have been able to put his team in better positions to win overall.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rich_C
    replied
    Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    Well...to be fair the candidates they chose were chosen in part because of their willingness to accept Kubiak as an assistant or coordinator.
    I believe that might be true but as the OP has stated (and while I don't agree with all of it I do agree with some of it) that there is a major issue with the HC having forced upon him coaches of the FO's choosing. For example - I look back to when VJ came here. Joe Woods, at least from my perspective, seemed to have Joe Woods forced on him.

    I pose this question. What if the FO's chosen coaches are the ones pooping the bed? Does the HC have the ability to kick 'em out the door? Will we as fans get told who the FO is forcing on the HC vs not? Or what if Kubiak is brought in as the OC and he is incapable of elevating the offensive play? Will our FO allow the HC to fire him like we did McCoy mid-season?

    My biggest gripe with Kubiak's offense is that so much of the system he ran in 2015 and 2016 appeared to require near perfection at nearly every position. Certain run plays required near perfect blocking and if that didn't happen then you needed a RB to shake off 2-3 tacklers in the backfield to have any form of success.

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  • BroncoFanDK
    replied
    Originally posted by Humberg View Post
    ....

    I'm not saying that Vance Joseph was a good coach because he wasn't, but Elway hamstrung him too and meddled there too and created a situation where Joseph didn't have the respect of his coordinators (McCoy) and assistants (because these were Elway guys and not Joseph guys). I'm sure that didn't help the new head coach. Now two years later here we go again with Elway pulling the same old slop.

    Plus, I think Kubiak was a good OC but what can you point to lately that would argue this point? He's been involved with the team last year, to the point that Musgrave called him "very involved" with the offense. Check this out:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/milehig...s-offense/amp/

    How did that work out? Some of last year's ineptitude falls at Kubiak's feet. Before that the last time we saw his offense is when he forced his system into an aging Peyton Manning and, while the defense carried them, the offense was inept and the following year it was even more so.
    Kubiak

    I'm sorry but your "proof" that Kubiak was very involved is an article from 6th september about Musgrave and Kubiak sitting down in the morning and talking about offensive strategies!
    Going back to 2015.................... Which HC that Manning has had throughout his carrer do you actually think could have won the SB with Manning in the physical condition he was in? Do you actually think that the Manning that doing the same thing Manning had done for his whole career with limited post season success and a body that gave up on him would have led to a better result than in 16 of his 17 seasons?
    There is absolutely no way that we would have succeeded with Manning's inability to make even short throws into coverage unless we focussed on the run.

    This was Sage Rosenfels take on this before the SB - https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/02/n...peyton-manning
    One can only speculate what Kubes might have gotten out of Jay Cutler or Tim Tebow by simplifying and speeding up their play.


    VJ/McCoy

    VJ seemed like he had no place being a HC. He seemed lost out there so wiping lack of respect of on organisational things is a bit misplaced. The Broncos community was split on McCoy, with the basic takes McCoy was brilliant and the reason for the success with the lousy bible fanatic, and others that saw Tebow more as the motor and McCoy as the anchor. Elway did seem to favor the narrative that the coaches that produced a win rate of 20% with Orton were the ones that should be credited with the 63% with Tebow.

    VJ had plenty of time to show that he was a competent HC, and there does not seem to really be anything out there that would indicate that! It is not Elway's, Kubiak's, McCoy's or Musgrave's fault that VJ was lost. Elway should be blamed for hiring him, but not for VJ not being up to making the right decisions at game speed.


    I'm sorry but your attacks on Elway and more are misplaced!

    Leave a comment:


  • Humberg
    replied
    Not to burst my own bubble, but I will admit, after watching that press conference, seeing the way Vic is, damn, it's hard not to be a little excited...

    Leave a comment:


  • Humberg
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
    No no. Again!

    Kubiak is a massive asset for Fangio!

    Fangio is a DC that like Wade had been elite for decades, yet still did not get a HC opportunity, and for all we know might not be HC material on the offensive side of the ball. What it all boils down to is NOT Elway or any other pie in the sky.

    It boils down to who has the "big boy pants". Kubiak is a tremendous OC and he has a knowledge about the players that Fangio has no chance of having. If we speculate that Fox after he needed surgery had stepped down as HC and it was McDaniels that had come in with his football brilliance and issues in other areas as a 75% HC, it would probably have been a massive success!

    This is NOT about Elway but about Fangio and Kubiak!

    If it works it will be the best of two worlds, and if Fangio fails Elway will be right that he is the last HC that Elway is likely to hire.
    I'll give you that sometimes the craziest situations have a funny way of working out. Fangio/Kubiak has some old school appeal because both coaches have been around a long time and are respected. But acknowledge that this is crazy. Fangio was given authority over half the team. It's not like he's going to be able to fire Kubiak halfway through the season if the offense is pathetic (again). Fangio is in the position of a glorified defensive coordinator. Elway is the head coach in terms of coaching management. That's bad and crazy and puts us up there with Jones/Dallas and Davis/Raiders. It's not a healthy situation.

    I'm not saying that Vance Joseph was a good coach because he wasn't, but Elway hamstrung him too and meddled there too and created a situation where Joseph didn't have the respect of his coordinators (McCoy) and assistants (because these were Elway guys and not Joseph guys). I'm sure that didn't help the new head coach. Now two years later here we go again with Elway pulling the same old slop.

    Plus, I think Kubiak was a good OC but what can you point to lately that would argue this point? He's been involved with the team last year, to the point that Musgrave called him "very involved" with the offense. Check this out:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/milehig...s-offense/amp/

    How did that work out? Some of last year's ineptitude falls at Kubiak's feet. Before that the last time we saw his offense is when he forced his system into an aging Peyton Manning and, while the defense carried them, the offense was inept and the following year it was even more so.

    Plus Keenum seems like a bust but Keenum is Kubiak's guy. Kubiak signed him originally out of college, Kubiak tried to trade for him when he was with the Rams, and it's not a secret that Kubiak was a major reason they went that direction in free agency last year as a bug in Elway's ear. So this seems to fall on his shoulders.

    All of this is a fairly uninspiring body of work as of late. Why would you have any confidence in a Kubiak run offense? Did we suddenly get a quarterback? This is 2016 offense all over again, Kubiak is rigidly fixed to his system, and we have a Siemien like quarterback. Why would it be different?

    Does anyone really think this is about Kubiak's offensive coordinator skills? Bunk. I think this is about Elway feeling like he needs Kubiak for his draft skills but realizing if he didn't get him coaching Kubiak was going to be lured elsewhere. Throw in a heavy dose of nepotism and this is what you have. And admittedly, Kubiak seems to have hit one out of the park with last year's draft. But to promise him OC based on this is nutters, he's done nothing in this area as of late to warrant this.

    I'll grant you that Elway went out and got one heck of a defensive coordinator (which might get us back the lost ground when he stupidly let Wade Phillips walk), but he major failed to evolve or change the offensive side of the ball which has been our Achilles heel for years now.

    Elway is going to live or die in the proverbial sense (I think the latter) with his friend, buddy system and draft security blanket by his side. He came in to the league with Kubiak and he's going to go out with him, which is great for their friendship but bad for the team and organization.

    Leave a comment:


  • samparnell
    replied
    Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Well it will be him running the D so the DC will be title only. Also Williams and Fangio run two very different defenses schematically.
    The Head Coach must oversee the whole team or he won't be HC for long as in the case of Romeo Crennel in KC. DC must do all the scouting, practice, meetings and prep for scout team O which is an enormous amount of time consuming work which begins each week. DC will have plenty to do even if he isn't calling the D.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoFanDK
    replied
    Originally posted by Humberg View Post
    No no. Again, for me this is not about the skill of any of the candidates they considered or the fact that they went with Fangio. This is all about the fact that John Elway can't keep his paws off of the decisions that should be left to the head coach. That he's stuck in his old ways of thinking, that he meddles too much in areas he shouldn't and makes bad decision after bad decision. And while he gives lip service to needing to evolve the offense to the modern nfl has just saddled his new head coach with an out dated, rigidly devoted to the west coast style offensive coordinator who has produced dud offense in his last few years with the organization. Fangio may be a great coach, and I'm sure would have some good ideas about offensive coordinators that have been tough to go against in the modern NFL. Too bad he won't get to make that decision. Last time we saw a Kubiak run offense? Pathetic.

    Coach without interference? But oh by the way here is your offensive coordinator, a guy who uses a relic of an offensive system that hasn't worked in years? That's wacky! Anyone who can't see that is drinking the cool aid.

    Elway, keep out!

    This is an Elway rant, not a Fangio one.
    No no. Again!

    Kubiak is a massive asset for Fangio!

    Fangio is a DC that like Wade had been elite for decades, yet still did not get a HC opportunity, and for all we know might not be HC material on the offensive side of the ball. What it all boils down to is NOT Elway or any other pie in the sky.

    It boils down to who has the "big boy pants". Kubiak is a tremendous OC and he has a knowledge about the players that Fangio has no chance of having. If we speculate that Fox after he needed surgery had stepped down as HC and it was McDaniels that had come in with his football brilliance and issues in other areas as a 75% HC, it would probably have been a massive success!

    This is NOT about Elway but about Fangio and Kubiak!

    If it works it will be the best of two worlds, and if Fangio fails Elway will be right that he is the last HC that Elway is likely to hire.

    Leave a comment:


  • UnitedInOrange
    replied
    It's water under the bridge now, but TC is dead right. Right or wrong, Elway has gone full Al Davis. Meddling beyond the role of a GM. Unwilling to give his coach autonomy. He saddled Vance Joseph with the awesome Mike McCoy, who Vance didn't even now. But free pass cause he's Elway?

    I like Kubes a lot and genuinely (and selfishly) hopes he does well. Although his version of the zone-read O is 2 decades out of date and I hope the run game we finally discovered after he left doesn't go back in time. I also think our offensive decline in 2015 was as much Kubiak as Peyton's arm.

    Leave a comment:


  • FR Tim
    replied
    Originally posted by VonElway758 View Post
    I understand your concerns but we needed an older,more experienced guy and I don’t think Fangio would have left a very promising young team if he hadn’t got assurances that he would absolutely be allowed to coach without interference with Kubiak being an understandable exception as he is a Bronco through and through who can get the job done and whose presence will be favoured by the players.
    I said on another thread that from the uninspiring shortlist he was my #1 choice and I would have been disappointed if any of the others got the job.
    We needed the opposite of VJ and that’s what we got.He was not leaving a team who could be right in the NFC mix next year to be a puppet.
    Who knows what assurances he got. Or what the interview process and discussion looked like.

    I do think it is fair to consider if Fangio is the best HC candidate or the one that agreed to this odd arrangement of what looks like a strange co- HC arrangement.

    Fangio’s reputation is on the line as HC but it sure looks like Kubiak still has the influence and final decision making authority with the Broncos .

    Fangio seems to be a great DC but not a dynamic personality. At 60 years old he is not getting too many more opportunities to be a HC. Have to wonder if he is the “puppet” that gets to do all the HC duties Kubiak wasn’t interested in doing.

    Kubiak has health issues that are concerning. OC is still a stressful job. Will his health last all season? For multiple seasons?

    Just an odd situation IMO. Hope the dynamic works for all of them. Broncos could use a break after the past couple seasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Humberg
    replied
    Originally posted by VonElway758 View Post
    I understand your concerns but we needed an older,more experienced guy and I don’t think Fangio would have left a very promising young team if he hadn’t got assurances that he would absolutely be allowed to coach without interference with Kubiak being an understandable exception as he is a Bronco through and through who can get the job done and whose presence will be favoured by the players.
    I said on another thread that from the uninspiring shortlist he was my #1 choice and I would have been disappointed if any of the others got the job.
    We needed the opposite of VJ and that’s what we got.He was not leaving a team who could be right in the NFC mix next year to be a puppet.
    No no. Again, for me this is not about the skill of any of the candidates they considered or the fact that they went with Fangio. This is all about the fact that John Elway can't keep his paws off of the decisions that should be left to the head coach. That he's stuck in his old ways of thinking, that he meddles too much in areas he shouldn't and makes bad decision after bad decision. And while he gives lip service to needing to evolve the offense to the modern nfl has just saddled his new head coach with an out dated, rigidly devoted to the west coast style offensive coordinator who has produced dud offense in his last few years with the organization. Fangio may be a great coach, and I'm sure would have some good ideas about offensive coordinators that have been tough to go against in the modern NFL. Too bad he won't get to make that decision. Last time we saw a Kubiak run offense? Pathetic.

    Coach without interference? But oh by the way here is your offensive coordinator, a guy who uses a relic of an offensive system that hasn't worked in years? That's wacky! Anyone who can't see that is drinking the cool aid.

    Elway, keep out!

    This is an Elway rant, not a Fangio one.
    Last edited by Humberg; 01-09-2019, 06:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • VonElway758
    replied
    Originally posted by Humberg View Post
    On the eve of what will, mark my words, go down as another poor decision in a long line of them, I am reflecting on the state of the organization. A lot has been written about ownership, Elway's decisions as GM, the rotating coaching door, lack of a QB etc. But my beef tonight is how they are going about this new coaching hire. And I'm talking about the process here instead of the actual people (because it won't matter). This situation that they've created to hire the next head coach is just downright screwy. It's bonkers. It's madhouse.

    We are retaining coaches on the current coaching staff before we even have a HC in place? Kubiak has been promised a position on the offensive side coaching, perhaps even offensive coordinator? What gives?

    It seems like the talk around the media and their sources around the league is that this is insane. You hire a coach but don't even let him choose his right hand men and coaches/coordinators? Do you want to hamstring them and let them start with one hand tied behind their back from the get-go?

    From what I've heard, and admittedly I'm no expert, you have to have extreme solidarity and trust at the coaching level across the coordinators, position coaches and the head coach. You can't have guys that are Fangio/Munchak guys and guys that are Elway guys. You can't have the head coach looking over their shoulder every time they say something at a players meeting wondering if Elway's guys are going to tell the boss.

    The whole thing just smacks of fail. We certainly saw elements of this throughout the past 2 years when Vance was handed his coaching staff and that didn't work. I think there are plenty of examples around the league of owners or GMs that fail to stay in the box and instead want to be a part time head coach. It doesn't work. That's the stuff of the Raiders, that's very Al Davis (although a very respectful RIP is placed here).

    This Kubiak situation is wonkers. We block him from going anywhere, but he doesn't want the HC position, so what promise him OC? Just either stay in the front office, or be the head coach, but don't straddle the fence and undercut the new guy. Yeah, that's awesome.

    If we have a lot of our positional coaches staying in place, and potentially have someone slotted in as offensive coordinator (who you could argue is the most important coach on the team second to the head coach), then it's no wonder we aren't getting the better coaching candidates coming here to interview. Who would want to come here without even close to the usual authority afforded a head coach? Neither Fangio nor Munchak have any other HC options, and other big name coaches didn't even consider us. That's where we are. Now, both might be great as coordinators, but we are the ONLY team that is considering making them a HC. We are the ONLY team that considered Taylor as a HC. Am I missing something? Why does our list seem to be different than everybody else's? Could it be that this is a terrible situation for any head coach to come into?

    Back when Elway came to this team it was a similar situation, they hired Fox as one of the only reputable coaches that would come here (and didn't have any other options) because the organization was in the pooper. We praised Elway for salvaging a sinking ship. Now, this mess is all John Elway's. And there is no adult in the organization to slap his hand.

    Elway, Ellis and whatever Bowlen happens to be in the house needs to wake up and tell the GM of this organization to, in the words of Brandon Stokely, "make the hire John and get out of the way."

    If he doesn't, and it doesn't look like he will, I give this next head coaching regime 2 years, 3 years tops before we are doing this all over again. The reason? Fail before it even begins.
    I understand your concerns but we needed an older,more experienced guy and I don’t think Fangio would have left a very promising young team if he hadn’t got assurances that he would absolutely be allowed to coach without interference with Kubiak being an understandable exception as he is a Bronco through and through who can get the job done and whose presence will be favoured by the players.
    I said on another thread that from the uninspiring shortlist he was my #1 choice and I would have been disappointed if any of the others got the job.
    We needed the opposite of VJ and that’s what we got.He was not leaving a team who could be right in the NFC mix next year to be a puppet.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spice 1
    replied
    Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Well it will be him running the D so the DC will be title only. Also Williams and Fangio run two very different defenses schematically.
    Then, there's that...

    Leave a comment:


  • Butler By'Note
    replied
    Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post
    Super amazing, but I get the feeling Fangio's going to want a lackey.
    Well it will be him running the D so the DC will be title only. Also Williams and Fangio run two very different defenses schematically.

    Leave a comment:

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