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  • ESPN gives DEN a D+

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...enver-get-here


    Denver Broncos: D+

    The news that the Broncos are dealing for Flacco is a reminder that the things we've known about the league for years are still true.

    To start, nobody knows anything about evaluating quarterbacks. If anybody should be an expert on which quarterbacks actually have the "it factor" and are about to turn into superstars, it should be John Elway, who is now the Broncos' general manager.

    The Hall of Famer won two Super Bowls as part of a glittering 16-year career under center for the Broncos. He took over a floundering Denver team after the disastrous Josh McDaniels era and immediately led it back to the postseason. Elway nailed his two biggest decisions in replacing Tim Tebow with Peyton Manning (which was more controversial at the time than it seems now) and by swapping out John Fox after a 12-4 season for Gary Kubiak. The Broncos won Super Bowl 50 the following season.

    Everything else Elway has done with the quarterback position has led to Wednesday's move. He used a second-round pick on Brock Osweiler in 2012, drafting the 6-foot-7 Arizona State product 18 picks before the Seahawks chose Russell Wilson. Elway tried to retain Osweiler with a significant offer north of $15 million per season in free agency, only to be outbid by the Texans. When that failed, Elway traded up in the first round of the 2016 draft to grab 6-foot-7 Memphis quarterback Paxton Lynch, who couldn't beat out 6-foot-3 undrafted free agent Trevor Siemian in two chances for the starting job before being released.

    Elway broke from type briefly after Lynch bombed to a nearly unprecedented degree by signing 6-foot-1 Case Keenum in free agency last year. Keenum didn't live up to the heights he reached with the Vikings in 2017, unsurprisingly, but he also delivered the best season the Broncos have gotten from a quarterback since Manning in 2014. Keenum posted a 46.9 QBR on a team whose two best offensive linemen (Ronald Leary and Matt Paradis) combined for 15 starts. The Broncos traded Demaryius Thomas in midseason and then lost Emmanuel Sanders to a torn Achilles for the final month of the season. Keenum wasn't great, but he was about what Elway & Co. should have expected.

    All of that brings us to the next lessons. In the NFL, shorter quarterbacks like Keenum have to constantly prove that they can play. Tall quarterbacks get chance after chance to prove that they can't play. And more importantly, when NFL coaches and executives are on the ropes, they're going to turn to what they know or what has worked in the past.

    Come on down, Joe Flacco! The Broncos traded a midround pick to the Ravens for their deposed 6-foot-6 starter, who lost his job to Lamar Jackson and immediately saw the Ravens make a run to the postseason. ESPN's Adam Schefter noted that Flacco got enthusiastic recommendations from new Broncos coach Vic Fangio and former team executive Kubiak, each of whom was in Baltimore with Flacco earlier in his career.

    Flacco has posted exactly one above-average season by passer rating or net yards per attempt since his incredible run to the Super Bowl in 2012. His Total QBR over that six-year stretch is 53.8; among the 20 passers with 2,000 or more pass attempts over that time frame, the only quarterbacks Flacco beats out are Eli Manning, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr and Blake Bortles. (Keenum's QBR over that time frame on 1,844 attempts is 51.5.)

    Flacco has 5,670 career pass attempts with an ANY/A+ of 94. He has been a slightly below-average quarterback over the course of his 11-year run. Having turned 34 in January, it's hard to believe he is suddenly going to get better over a multiyear run, especially given the lack of talent the Broncos have on offense.

    It will now become more difficult for the Broncos to improve that talent. In addition to sending a midround pick to the Ravens for Flacco -- and Denver does have two fourth-round picks in this draft -- the Broncos are inheriting the three years and $63 million remaining on Flacco's onerous contract with the Ravens. That contract is unguaranteed, so the Broncos could get out of Flacco's contract after one season if things go wrong.

    In 2019, though, the Broncos will add $18.5 million to their cap, which leaves them with $18.3 million in space per Spotrac. Denver can create $10.3 million in room by releasing the injured Sanders, but it probably needs to add at least one veteran wideout, if not a tight end to go with him. The Broncos need to find a way to bring back Paradis, given that they're already weak up front before losing their star center.

    They're also stuck with a minimum of $10 million on their cap for Keenum, who has $7 million of his $18 million base salary guaranteed in addition to $3 million of his prorated signing bonus. Keenum will have no trade value at that $18 million figure and will likely be released by the Broncos unless he takes a huge pay cut, which wouldn't make sense.

    Even more unfortunate: The combo of Flacco and Keenum creates total uncertainty at the position beyond 2019, thus making it a pretty good time to draft a quarterback, even if it's not in Round 1. As noted above, that has not gone well for Elway to this point.

    Denver will have $28.5 million on its 2019 cap for Keenum and Flacco with no quarterback of the future on the roster. It's hard to fathom how the Broncos got here, but it's an incredibly unenviable position.


    BAL gets a B+

    Comment


    • Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
      ESPN gives DEN a D+

      http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...enver-get-here


      Denver Broncos: D+

      The news that the Broncos are dealing for Flacco is a reminder that the things we've known about the league for years are still true.

      To start, nobody knows anything about evaluating quarterbacks. If anybody should be an expert on which quarterbacks actually have the "it factor" and are about to turn into superstars, it should be John Elway, who is now the Broncos' general manager.

      The Hall of Famer won two Super Bowls as part of a glittering 16-year career under center for the Broncos. He took over a floundering Denver team after the disastrous Josh McDaniels era and immediately led it back to the postseason. Elway nailed his two biggest decisions in replacing Tim Tebow with Peyton Manning (which was more controversial at the time than it seems now) and by swapping out John Fox after a 12-4 season for Gary Kubiak. The Broncos won Super Bowl 50 the following season.

      Everything else Elway has done with the quarterback position has led to Wednesday's move. He used a second-round pick on Brock Osweiler in 2012, drafting the 6-foot-7 Arizona State product 18 picks before the Seahawks chose Russell Wilson. Elway tried to retain Osweiler with a significant offer north of $15 million per season in free agency, only to be outbid by the Texans. When that failed, Elway traded up in the first round of the 2016 draft to grab 6-foot-7 Memphis quarterback Paxton Lynch, who couldn't beat out 6-foot-3 undrafted free agent Trevor Siemian in two chances for the starting job before being released.

      Elway broke from type briefly after Lynch bombed to a nearly unprecedented degree by signing 6-foot-1 Case Keenum in free agency last year. Keenum didn't live up to the heights he reached with the Vikings in 2017, unsurprisingly, but he also delivered the best season the Broncos have gotten from a quarterback since Manning in 2014. Keenum posted a 46.9 QBR on a team whose two best offensive linemen (Ronald Leary and Matt Paradis) combined for 15 starts. The Broncos traded Demaryius Thomas in midseason and then lost Emmanuel Sanders to a torn Achilles for the final month of the season. Keenum wasn't great, but he was about what Elway & Co. should have expected.

      All of that brings us to the next lessons. In the NFL, shorter quarterbacks like Keenum have to constantly prove that they can play. Tall quarterbacks get chance after chance to prove that they can't play. And more importantly, when NFL coaches and executives are on the ropes, they're going to turn to what they know or what has worked in the past.

      Come on down, Joe Flacco! The Broncos traded a midround pick to the Ravens for their deposed 6-foot-6 starter, who lost his job to Lamar Jackson and immediately saw the Ravens make a run to the postseason. ESPN's Adam Schefter noted that Flacco got enthusiastic recommendations from new Broncos coach Vic Fangio and former team executive Kubiak, each of whom was in Baltimore with Flacco earlier in his career.

      Flacco has posted exactly one above-average season by passer rating or net yards per attempt since his incredible run to the Super Bowl in 2012. His Total QBR over that six-year stretch is 53.8; among the 20 passers with 2,000 or more pass attempts over that time frame, the only quarterbacks Flacco beats out are Eli Manning, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr and Blake Bortles. (Keenum's QBR over that time frame on 1,844 attempts is 51.5.)

      Flacco has 5,670 career pass attempts with an ANY/A+ of 94. He has been a slightly below-average quarterback over the course of his 11-year run. Having turned 34 in January, it's hard to believe he is suddenly going to get better over a multiyear run, especially given the lack of talent the Broncos have on offense.

      It will now become more difficult for the Broncos to improve that talent. In addition to sending a midround pick to the Ravens for Flacco -- and Denver does have two fourth-round picks in this draft -- the Broncos are inheriting the three years and $63 million remaining on Flacco's onerous contract with the Ravens. That contract is unguaranteed, so the Broncos could get out of Flacco's contract after one season if things go wrong.

      In 2019, though, the Broncos will add $18.5 million to their cap, which leaves them with $18.3 million in space per Spotrac. Denver can create $10.3 million in room by releasing the injured Sanders, but it probably needs to add at least one veteran wideout, if not a tight end to go with him. The Broncos need to find a way to bring back Paradis, given that they're already weak up front before losing their star center.

      They're also stuck with a minimum of $10 million on their cap for Keenum, who has $7 million of his $18 million base salary guaranteed in addition to $3 million of his prorated signing bonus. Keenum will have no trade value at that $18 million figure and will likely be released by the Broncos unless he takes a huge pay cut, which wouldn't make sense.

      Even more unfortunate: The combo of Flacco and Keenum creates total uncertainty at the position beyond 2019, thus making it a pretty good time to draft a quarterback, even if it's not in Round 1. As noted above, that has not gone well for Elway to this point.

      Denver will have $28.5 million on its 2019 cap for Keenum and Flacco with no quarterback of the future on the roster. It's hard to fathom how the Broncos got here, but it's an incredibly unenviable position.


      BAL gets a B+
      Yeah, it's a joke.

      Comment


      • If they reach for a project QB in the 4th or later rounds, someone needs their head examined. If they roll with Flacco and Keenum, they need their head examined. I am puzzled by this strategy. Hopefully they know something special we aren't privy to.

        Comment


        • Well ESPN is garbage so.........

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mel B. View Post
            It better just be a 'bridge' move until the rookie we draft is ready.

            I didn't want, and still don't want Flacco, and would feel better if he was mobile, but at least he can make every throw (short & deep) and hit his receivers 'in stride'...unlike all the under-throws & over-throws the guy we have now habitually makes. Hopefully that guy will be released/traded soon.
            This may be the reason why they traded for him??? I don't know just spitballin......

            Comment


            • Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
              No, we didn't trade Demaryius Thomas for Joe Flacco. It doesn't work that way just because DT was injured and cut. As for Keenum fetching a 4th round pick, maybe if we hadn't traded for Flacco but seeing as we have and it's public knowledge that we'll be offloading him one way or another, no team is going to offer that much.
              You seem to be mixing up what happened to DT in Denver with what happened to DT in Houston.

              DT wasn’t cut and injured from Denver. He was traded for a fourth round pick due to lost production but was still healthy.

              We have now used that fourth round pick on Joe Flacco.

              Trading DT for Flacco is essentially exactly what we have done.

              Houston is the ones who cut an injured DT.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
                Good post.

                That being said, personally, I'm not ready to call it quits on Elway just yet, just extremely disappointed.
                I heard Trent Dilfer is available......

                Comment


                • Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
                  No, we didn't trade Demaryius Thomas for Joe Flacco. It doesn't work that way just because DT was injured and cut. As for Keenum fetching a 4th round pick, maybe if we hadn't traded for Flacco but seeing as we have and it's public knowledge that we'll be offloading him one way or another, no team is going to offer that much.
                  The pick we got for DT, is what we're using for flacco. Yes, it is basically in essense DT for Flacco....
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by broncoslover115 View Post
                    Yikes, Elway just got crucified for this move on NFL Live. They don’t see any difference between Flacco and Case Keenum. They actually called it a step back. They said Flacco showed no interest in helping LaMar Jackson so why would he want to mentor a rookie QB if we draft one.
                    The only way I can agree with this comment is that Case has shown his floor is high and his ceiling is low. Case has also shown that he can play for an entire season and into the post-season well. Arguably better than Flacco. Flacco however has played well but not great. He had one real outlier in the playoffs and the rest has been middle of the pack. I think for me I see these guys as the same....so why give up a 4th for the same guy?

                    Originally posted by atwaterandstir View Post
                    It's a pretty saavy move really.....he's an upgrade at the most important position with not much more of an investment. Who knows how it will end up, but your right at Keenums trade number- I would imagine there would be multiple interested teams.
                    Here is the weird thing. My eye test thought I saw Case as a better QB but with weapons who were seldom getting open at the WR position. Instead I looked at the general stats and it looked like Flacco was the better QB. 12-6 INT to TD. More YPG passing, More passing attempts per game. The thing I don't understand is that the stats are only "SLIGHTLY" better....and I mean barely.

                    Originally posted by CTM View Post
                    Anyone who thinks Flacco and Keenum are the same is not watching the correct sport. Keenum's biggest issue was holding on to the ball WAAAAYYY TOOOOO LOOOOONG. Flacco for as mistake prone as he can be will be decisive in letting the ball fly. If he can develop chemistry with our young guys this should be a huge improvement over Keenum just holding on until throwing an errant pass or taking a drive-killing sack.
                    Joe Flacco was SOOO good that the Ravens drafted a QB in round 1 in the 2018 draft and all but showed him the bench for the last portion of the season. The other concern I have with Flacco is that he is less mobile than Case is. Maybe that is a slight advantage BUT if our O-Line is not good or great then Flacco is gonna get eaten ALIVE.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DenverBlood View Post
                      You seem to be mixing up what happened to DT in Denver with what happened to DT in Houston.

                      DT wasn’t cut and injured from Denver. He was traded for a fourth round pick due to lost production but was still healthy.

                      We have now used that fourth round pick on Joe Flacco.

                      Trading DT for Flacco is essentially exactly what we have done.

                      Houston is the ones who cut an injured DT.
                      No, I'm not. I was talking about the situation in Houston.

                      You're saying we used that fourth round pick on Flacco, which is correct. That's not what he was saying though and there's a distinct difference worth pointing out. By trading one player for another, you don't get to decide what to do with that pick. We traded DT to Houston, got a pick in return and used that pick on what turned out to be Flacco (assuming it's not the other 4th round pick). There is a difference. I get what he's saying but he should have phrased it properly.

                      Anyway, back on topic. Terrible waste of a pick on yet another backup.
                      Adopted Poster
                      AZ Snake Fan

                      Comment


                      • Rich- in fairness if I remember correctly Flacco was coming off a back injury in 2017 so the Jackson move at the end of the Rd 1 wasn't really a franchise deciding to go another direction. I think it was more of a gamble move on a player they really liked. I think the reality is Jackson surprised people with his skills. I see it as much of a compliment to Jackson's growth/potential as anything.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mel B. View Post
                          That was my first reaction when I heard about all this. Then I laughed. Now I'm just hoping the team knows what they're doing.

                          Originally posted by Melemele View Post
                          I'm a refugee from Baltimore (now in Arizona), requesting asylum. Denver will not regret getting Flacco. Unlike Baltimore, I am confident that Elway and Denver will know how to use Flacco's skill set. Just remember that when Baltimore had someone competent running the offense (last time that happened it was Kubiak in 2014) they went to the playoffs. In his first five years Joe won 10 of 15 playoff games including a Superbowl. Joe's the same guy - but with morons (in Baltimore) running the show. Look at the Ravens record over the last 5 to 6 years and see how many times Joe brought the Ravens back into the lead in the 4th quarter only for Harbaugh to pull the offense back into a shell and watch the Ravens defense lose the game. That has happened consistently 2 or 3 times a year during Flacco's last five years.

                          Before its over Joe will bring Denver a Superbowl. Count me as an ex Ravens fan - and a NEW BRONCOS fan.
                          Welcome to the MB and the Broncos!

                          I wish I had your optimism about Flacco. I live near Baltimore and I am not a fan of the Ravens (my most disliked team) or Flacco.

                          Originally posted by EddieMac View Post
                          I see this as a positive. Flacco is an 11 year vet that can read a defence and get the ball out quickly. With him there we can work on the oline and other positions of need if the FO decides the QB's in the draft are not worth what we can get at 10 at other positions.

                          We have a young team, a veteran is a perfect fit to run the system while a younger one is sought, and the young players gain some experience that can help an even younger QB....

                          Glass half full ... This isn't picking up a shiny one year wonder .... cough keenum cough.... or cough foles cough.... its an 11 year full time starting previous superbowl winning QB.
                          I like the way you think. Hopefully this is the way it works out.

                          I need another cup of coffee.
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                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 16TheSnake View Post
                            How can the Ravens and Saints meet in the Playoffs and NOT be in the SB?...
                            Yeah, then there's that

                            As you can tell, I don't follow the Ravens.
                            Last edited by Rastic; 02-13-2019, 11:42 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
                              ESPN gives DEN a D+

                              http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...enver-get-here


                              Denver Broncos: D+

                              The news that the Broncos are dealing for Flacco is a reminder that the things we've known about the league for years are still true.

                              To start, nobody knows anything about evaluating quarterbacks. If anybody should be an expert on which quarterbacks actually have the "it factor" and are about to turn into superstars, it should be John Elway, who is now the Broncos' general manager.

                              The Hall of Famer won two Super Bowls as part of a glittering 16-year career under center for the Broncos. He took over a floundering Denver team after the disastrous Josh McDaniels era and immediately led it back to the postseason. Elway nailed his two biggest decisions in replacing Tim Tebow with Peyton Manning (which was more controversial at the time than it seems now) and by swapping out John Fox after a 12-4 season for Gary Kubiak. The Broncos won Super Bowl 50 the following season.

                              Everything else Elway has done with the quarterback position has led to Wednesday's move. He used a second-round pick on Brock Osweiler in 2012, drafting the 6-foot-7 Arizona State product 18 picks before the Seahawks chose Russell Wilson. Elway tried to retain Osweiler with a significant offer north of $15 million per season in free agency, only to be outbid by the Texans. When that failed, Elway traded up in the first round of the 2016 draft to grab 6-foot-7 Memphis quarterback Paxton Lynch, who couldn't beat out 6-foot-3 undrafted free agent Trevor Siemian in two chances for the starting job before being released.

                              Elway broke from type briefly after Lynch bombed to a nearly unprecedented degree by signing 6-foot-1 Case Keenum in free agency last year. Keenum didn't live up to the heights he reached with the Vikings in 2017, unsurprisingly, but he also delivered the best season the Broncos have gotten from a quarterback since Manning in 2014. Keenum posted a 46.9 QBR on a team whose two best offensive linemen (Ronald Leary and Matt Paradis) combined for 15 starts. The Broncos traded Demaryius Thomas in midseason and then lost Emmanuel Sanders to a torn Achilles for the final month of the season. Keenum wasn't great, but he was about what Elway & Co. should have expected.

                              All of that brings us to the next lessons. In the NFL, shorter quarterbacks like Keenum have to constantly prove that they can play. Tall quarterbacks get chance after chance to prove that they can't play. And more importantly, when NFL coaches and executives are on the ropes, they're going to turn to what they know or what has worked in the past.

                              Come on down, Joe Flacco! The Broncos traded a midround pick to the Ravens for their deposed 6-foot-6 starter, who lost his job to Lamar Jackson and immediately saw the Ravens make a run to the postseason. ESPN's Adam Schefter noted that Flacco got enthusiastic recommendations from new Broncos coach Vic Fangio and former team executive Kubiak, each of whom was in Baltimore with Flacco earlier in his career.

                              Flacco has posted exactly one above-average season by passer rating or net yards per attempt since his incredible run to the Super Bowl in 2012. His Total QBR over that six-year stretch is 53.8; among the 20 passers with 2,000 or more pass attempts over that time frame, the only quarterbacks Flacco beats out are Eli Manning, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr and Blake Bortles. (Keenum's QBR over that time frame on 1,844 attempts is 51.5.)

                              Flacco has 5,670 career pass attempts with an ANY/A+ of 94. He has been a slightly below-average quarterback over the course of his 11-year run. Having turned 34 in January, it's hard to believe he is suddenly going to get better over a multiyear run, especially given the lack of talent the Broncos have on offense.

                              It will now become more difficult for the Broncos to improve that talent. In addition to sending a midround pick to the Ravens for Flacco -- and Denver does have two fourth-round picks in this draft -- the Broncos are inheriting the three years and $63 million remaining on Flacco's onerous contract with the Ravens. That contract is unguaranteed, so the Broncos could get out of Flacco's contract after one season if things go wrong.

                              In 2019, though, the Broncos will add $18.5 million to their cap, which leaves them with $18.3 million in space per Spotrac. Denver can create $10.3 million in room by releasing the injured Sanders, but it probably needs to add at least one veteran wideout, if not a tight end to go with him. The Broncos need to find a way to bring back Paradis, given that they're already weak up front before losing their star center.

                              They're also stuck with a minimum of $10 million on their cap for Keenum, who has $7 million of his $18 million base salary guaranteed in addition to $3 million of his prorated signing bonus. Keenum will have no trade value at that $18 million figure and will likely be released by the Broncos unless he takes a huge pay cut, which wouldn't make sense.

                              Even more unfortunate: The combo of Flacco and Keenum creates total uncertainty at the position beyond 2019, thus making it a pretty good time to draft a quarterback, even if it's not in Round 1. As noted above, that has not gone well for Elway to this point.

                              Denver will have $28.5 million on its 2019 cap for Keenum and Flacco with no quarterback of the future on the roster. It's hard to fathom how the Broncos got here, but it's an incredibly unenviable position.


                              BAL gets a B+
                              Bill Barnwell is a known Broncos hater. I could care less what he thinks about the trade. Also, him making excuses because the team was missing the two best linemen for 15 games is a take from a guy who didn't watch a snap of the team last year. The o-line improved in the second half of the season.

                              Keenum is a nice guy but in no world is he even comparable to Flacco. It's not a huge upgrade but it is an upgrade. Now the team needs to draft a QB sometime before round 3 and hope we can develop him.
                              Last edited by JW7; 02-13-2019, 11:46 AM.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • I’ll wait to see how it plays out before I judge this one way or the other. On one hand Joe Flacco has played poorly for a long time on the other hand the best WR he’s had to throw to was Torrey Smith? An aging Steve Smith? An aging Anquan Boldin? An aging broken down Jeremy Maclin? An injury prone one trick pony in John Brown? A slot WR coming off a major injury in Willie Snead? A washed up Michael Crabtree who’s had his soul snatched out by Sherman and Talib? He will finally have some talented young WRs that can hold onto the ball and run a route unlike Breshad Perriman. In Flacco’s tenure Baltimore had become the place where WRs go to die.

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