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  • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    I don't think Elway liked the price of moving up, which was why he spent the fourth for a QB instead of giving up a lot more to get a QB you don't want to draft 5th.
    Probably so but it’s still a draft pick. The history of 4th round picks doesn’t mean the Broncos couldn’t draft a player with good potential, even for Special Teams or depth on the line.

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    • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
      Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Keenums $10 million Cap hit assumes that Keenum is cut, and nobody else signs him. If we trade Keenum, he will be a $3 million dollar hit. If we cut Keenum and he signs a Vet minimum of $4 million, then the Cap Hit is $6 million. And yet people continue to use the [B]$10 million dollar number to bolster their faulty argument[B]. I believe the truth is that more will be revealed over time. You can bet that Elway and the FO are much better aware of the challenges we face in moving Keenum than anyone on this Board. So, I'm going to wait and see what happens instead of crying over something that nobody on this Board can control.
      It’s $10 million until Keenum is traded or cut and signs with another team. For that matter it’s $21 million right now, but nobody believes Keenum will be on the roster. I don’t know that anyone’s argument is faulty. Everyone has an opinion and just because more people favor the move doesn’t make another opinion faulty.

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      • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post
        Another thing. Flacco might occasionally throw in to coverage, but I don't see him force feeding the same receiver every week like Keenum does. Brown was getting a lot of targets, but so was Snead. At this point, it's become pretty clear that priority one when facing Keenum is taking away the slot. I don't have stats to support the idea of Flacco spreading the ball around more. I'm going on what I've seen watching him play. If anyone has those numbers readily available, feel free.
        Actually, it looks like JF is just going thru the motions. He might have been complacent with the lack of off. support around him sense the Rice accident. Ravens have always been a Def team and may have over looked the off. Kinda like the Broncos the last few years. Maybe rebooting with a new team will jump start JF. If so the Broncos will benefit. Hoping ES comes back strong.

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        • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
          It’s $10 million until Keenum is traded or cut and signs with another team. For that matter it’s $21 million right now, but nobody believes Keenum will be on the roster. I don’t know that anyone’s argument is faulty. Everyone has an opinion and just because more people favor the move doesn’t make another opinion faulty.
          It's disingenuous to assume that Keenum will represent a $10 million dollar cap hit before we know what will be done with him. That has nothing to do with "opinion".

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          • Originally posted by jflee66 View Post
            Actually, it looks like JF is just going thru the motions. He might have been complacent with the lack of off. support around him sense the Rice accident. Ravens have always been a Def team and may have over looked the off. Kinda like the Broncos the last few years. Maybe rebooting with a new team will jump start JF. If so the Broncos will benefit. Hoping ES comes back strong.
            Yeah, I don't know if Sutton is ready to take the next step. We're going to need Sanders next year, but if there's a way for them to acquire AB, I wouldn't be against it. That's probably a pipe dream, but I do see us needing some help at receiver and tight end next year. I don't know if that's a viable option in the draft, because they take time to develop, and we have other needs. I know that if Scangarello is anything like Kyle, finding an athletic tight end who can block could be a home run. He doesn't necessarily have to be an elite route runner with an insane catch radius, because he's going to be open schematically.

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            • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
              Probably so but it’s still a draft pick. The history of 4th round picks doesn’t mean the Broncos couldn’t draft a player with good potential, even for Special Teams or depth on the line.
              They traded the asset for a player. Getting a starting QB with a 4th round pick is a good use of the asset.

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              • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                It's disingenuous to assume that Keenum will represent a $10 million dollar cap hit before we know what will be done with him. That has nothing to do with "opinion".
                It is highly unlikely a team trades for a backup QB at his price tag.

                The likely scenario is he is cut, inflicting a 10m dead hit on our 2019 cap. If another team signs him, we can earn a credit towards our 2020 cap of up to 7m.

                If he is cut, he hits our cap at 10m this year, plus Flacc's 18.5, leaving us at 28.5m for below average at best QB play.

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                • Originally posted by Freyaka View Post
                  Good thing we aren't paying him 28.5m....

                  He's making 18m towards our cap after the Ravens eat their portion and it's not a "high" 4th, it's the 4th we got for DT from the Texans. so we basically traded DT for Flacco...

                  Even if it was a high fourth, name one 4th round draft pick that Denver's had since 2012 that's had an impact? Max Garcia and Booker are the only two still on our roster.
                  18.5 plus Keenum's 10m dead hit for Flacco. Him coming in directly influences the move to dump Keenum, so the money is tied to him.

                  It has been reported that it is our own 4th.

                  You really want to play that game? That's your argument? Name 4th rounders that have had immense impact? What about 3rd rounders? Or 2nds? Even 1st round picks outside of the top 10? Should we just trade all of our draft picks for fringe improvements at significant cap expense?

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                  • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                    Exactly right. It's hard not to laugh at some opinions when they are unaware of the actual facts regarding Flacco. I haven't watched 25+ games of Flacco, and I'd bet a months salary that nobody on this Board has. I have, however, watched the Baltimore/New Orleans loss, and the Baltimore win over Denver, both from last season. And Flacco is clearly the superior QB compared to Keenum by a wide margin, even to the most casual observer. He looks healthy, he looks relatively mobile,, he looks athletic for his age, and he looks like there is still tread on the tires. But, let's say he falls on his face, and can no longer perform when we get to pre-season. Then we cut him with NO CAP HIT.

                    I shake my head that some on this board have become so Invested in seeing Flacco fail Similar to Chubb, who after his spectacular rookie season, still sees some of his critics hanging on to a lost cause. I sure as heck don't want Missouri's Lock on this team. And I have argued against Drafting him. But, if we do Draft him then he will be a member of this Team, no matter how I may feel, and I will support him. Imagine how good he would have to be to beat out Flacco! It would be great for the fans and great for the Franchise.
                    I'll take a check or wire transfer.

                    No one is invested in seeing him fail, it's kind of sad you would think that. Are you that big of a flacco fan that you're blind to his play?

                    I want Flacco to succeed. The odds are very small that he does any better than Keenum, however, and I'm not keen on the idea of tying up 28.5m in backup QBs at the cost of a draft pick.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Papa-pwn View Post
                      It is highly unlikely a team trades for a backup QB at his price tag.

                      The likely scenario is he is cut, inflicting a 10m dead hit on our 2019 cap. If another team signs him, we can earn a credit towards our 2020 cap of up to 7m.

                      If he is cut, he hits our cap at 10m this year, plus Flacc's 18.5, leaving us at 28.5m for below average at best QB play.
                      People seem to assume that a team would trade for Keenum and keep his cap number at $18 million for 2019. I think it's more likely teams trade for him and extend/rework his contract lowering his cap hit and giving them a good backup for several years.

                      Regardless of how any of us feel about Keenum starting in Denver, he is still one of the best backups in the league, and if you're a contender with cap room it makes sense to be able to get a backup who has won games in the NFL.

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                      • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post
                        Yeah, I don't know if Sutton is ready to take the next step. We're going to need Sanders next year, but if there's a way for them to acquire AB, I wouldn't be against it. That's probably a pipe dream, but I do see us needing some help at receiver and tight end next year. I don't know if that's a viable option in the draft, because they take time to develop, and we have other needs. I know that if Scangarello is anything like Kyle, finding an athletic tight end who can block could be a home run. He doesn't necessarily have to be an elite route runner with an insane catch radius, because he's going to be open schematically.
                        Yeah, I think drafting or trading for a reliable TE is a priority. He just needs to be able to block and catch a 100 mph fast ball consistently. Would like to see a top 3 TE go to the Broncos this draft.

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                        • Originally posted by Papa-pwn View Post
                          Flacco hasn't been a good, or even average, deep ball guy in a while. There's a reason he's been among the worst in the league in YPA for several years straight now. You can see it in games, his constant injuries to his shoulder/back/hip/knees has taken a lot away from him.
                          Not true.

                          I think Flacco is only a slightly better version of average than Keenum, on that we'll agree, but looking at YPA as a point of comparison between the two really misses out on the bigger picture and difference between the styles of each QB.

                          @JeffreyEssary

                          Found some interesting stuff from @NextGenStats on Flacco as it relates to deep passing. Looking at raw completion % or just QB rating is deceiving, especially when comparing next to Keenum.

                          They're totally different QBs stylistically and in what they're asked to do.

                          A Thread.

                          Flacco pushes the ball down the field more frequently as a function of the offense. Watching tape of the offense in 2018, they built in at least 4-5 deep shots a game where they would test the defense. The amount of times Flacco stretches the field is drastically more than CK.

                          Flacco is #12 in the league in air yards to the sticks, and Keenum is #28. Flacco is #13 in average intended air yards, while Keenum is #28.

                          Majority of QBs with high comp % have much lower avg intended air yards. Flacco's comp % is poor, but AIAY is high, Keenum poor in both.

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                          • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                            Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Keenums $10 million Cap hit assumes that Keenum is cut, and nobody else signs him. If we trade Keenum, he will be a $3 million dollar hit. If we cut Keenum and he signs a Vet minimum of $4 million, then the Cap Hit is $6 million. And yet people continue to use the $10 million dollar number to bolster their faulty argument. I believe the truth is that more will be revealed over time. You can bet that Elway and the FO are much better aware of the challenges we face in moving Keenum than anyone on this Board. So, I'm going to wait and see what happens instead of crying over something that nobody on this Board can control.
                            Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                            It's disingenuous to assume that Keenum will represent a $10 million dollar cap hit before we know what will be done with him. That has nothing to do with "opinion".
                            It’s fact that Keenum’s cap hit is $10 million until he’s traded or cut and signs with another team. We’ll go with your assumption of a $6 million cap hit, $24.5 million adding Flacco’s salary. That’s a lot of cap space for a quarterback with a 24-27 record over 4 seasons with limited production of 64 TDs and 45 INTs. Not to mention Flacco’s injury history. $24.5 milllion and a draft pick for production averaging 16 TDs and 11 INTs over the last four seasons.

                            Hopefully his production will improve assuming he stays healthy.

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                            • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                              $28.5 million for the quarterback position not counting depth: Flacco’s 2019 salary and Keenum’s $10 dead cap (less if Keenum signs with another team). The 4th round pick wasn’t a lot however could have been used in a package to trade up.
                              No offense, but that's a knee jerk sort of way of looking at. You know as well as I do that Keenum won't be here by the time the season rolls around, so to take his cap hit into account and count it against Flacco is poor math... His dead cap will be less than $10m depending on how we approach the situation and Elway will approach it in the way that nets us the smallest dead cap.

                              Keenum was getting cut regardless of if we brought in Flacco or not. All you have to do to know that is listen to the way Elway and the coaching staff were talking about him in a "for now" manner..
                              sigpic

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                              • Originally posted by Rastic View Post
                                Not true.

                                I think Flacco is only a slightly better version of average than Keenum, on that we'll agree, but looking at YPA as a point of comparison between the two really misses out on the bigger picture and difference between the styles of each QB.

                                @JeffreyEssary



                                One thing Flacco does that Keenum doesn't is execute proper ball placement. I saw him last season toss a perfect 50/50 ball right where the WR needed it to make the play. Keenum cannot do that.... Period.
                                sigpic

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