Flacco

[Broncoyearound]

I still don't like the trade...many days after so I'm at the point where it is what it is. Now that Flacco is our QB I can try and look for any optimism that could get me to be somewhat hopeful. I can only think to our Offensive coordinator who did wonders with Mullen last year for San Francisco.

He had that kid playing above his level so to speak so I would think he will have Flacco in a QB friendly system and work towards Flacco strengths. Oline will still be an issue and would have to be addressed to some degree. Flacco whether on par or a little above Keenum really means nothing at this point. We have Flacco and nothing will change that.

As for Keenum wouldn't it be hard to trade him? Every team knows we just traded for Flacco so why trade when they probably think it's a pretty good chance we just release him anyway? If i was a GM I wouldn't just out right trade for him unless I had an unexpected injury. Even if I wanted him as a backup I would bank on the Broncos just cutting him. So I'm not so sure Keenum gets dealt which will hurt our cap.

Keenum was awful no doubt about it but I also believe like Joseph we didn't put him in a position to where he could succeed. So why not finish out the contract? Elway is throwing darts at a QB board hoping to hit a bullseye and it's getting ridiculous. We changing ocords like crazy, going from qb to qb and each year we stand still...if we aren't standing still we are going backwards.

Elway is too particular in my opinion and I think he needs to get out of this win now mode and really take time to get this team back on track and in that time get a young great Qb. Right now would be a good time to execute that. Fix needs everywhere get your QB next year. If Flacco proves he still got it do a two year or let him walk, draft your QB next year at all cost and maybe we get on track to make some noise. We can't keep doing the QB carousel though.

What we been doing is getting game managers banking on defense and that mantra or formula is wrong. While we are at it I'm just tired of game managers...we need to get a guy who can put the offense on his back and score some points. 2015 is an afterthought and fans and or Elway need to realize our d, while it's decent it can't win games for us like it use to.

We still need a qb who can score especially when you factor in we are playing in a tough division where both rivals won 11plus games. So unless a lot of you are comfortable competeting for 3rd Elway will need to go out and get a guy. Flacco isn't it. It's another bridge gap but let's bank on our defense and he just needs to manage the game....if you have to use that term for your QB and hope for success than you put yourself at a disadvantage. It worked for us because Manning was a HOF QB but I'm sure you guys know by now we can't just plug and play. It worked out well for us with Siemien and Osweiler and Lynch and Keenum.

I'd go BPA this uear fill every need you can on the team and next year I'm selling out to get a QB. The reason the trade just doesn't make sense in my opinion and mine only is that you could have done the same thing with Keenum. Why even trade for Flacco? It's a stand still move not a forward move. Unless he thinks Flacco can make the playoffs. Do you not want to draft a Qb? Do you want to ride vets? At some point he needs to pull the trigger on a kid and yes you can still do that but why even bring Flacco in? What was the point?

You still have to get a QB and I think I heard that Flacco wasn't into mentoring Jackson when he was there so there was that too. I mention that because some posters said Flacco would be able to mentor a young Qb if we decided to draft one. Flacco wants to be the guy so I don't know how much mentoring he would do should we bring a guy in. Either or I'm still not excited at all but in fairness a lot of things still have to play out. Fa draft etc...

I don't mean this to be coming off so negative and believe me I don't wish for the team to fail but Elway needs to reevaluate and go at this differently. Mainly with that QB spot. He can only blame so much as to why we are struggling and GMs most times gets to point fingers and fire quite a few people before people really know who the problem is. I'm not at the firing stage but I am preparing a pitchfork.

[Freyaka]

He had that kid playing above his level so to speak so I would think he will have Flacco in a QB friendly system and work towards Flacco strengths

That's something we didn't have last year... Last year we had square peg round hole.... Keenum is not a pocket passer, they spent the entire season trying their hardest to make him one and couldn't grasp why it wasn't working. Hopefully Scags plays to what Flacco does best. If he does, he should hopefully have a stronger year than he's had the past few years.

[Papa-pwn]

The roster won't stay the same. Even with simply cutting Case and eating $10M, we're sitting at $36M on the books right now. It's likely IMO that we cut wolf. That leaves us at $44 million. With Sanders injury, he may not be back till around November, IMO, he's a likely cap casualty as well. That leaves us at $54M.

I cannot imagine Elway won't be making some splashy movies with $54 at his disposal. I would not be shocked to see Antonio Brown, CJ Mosley and some o-line pieces added via free agency, then we'll see some more depth in the draft.

Those numbers are a little off. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/ has us at 22m in cap space. Cut Keenum and get to 32m, cut Wolfe and Sanders to get to 52m. Don't forget draft picks -10m. So 42m, and that is not much left to cover replacing those key contributors we cut or to re-sign/replace/tender the many key contributors whose contracts are expiring.

Brandon Marshall, Jared Veldheer, Domata Peko, Tramaine Brock, Shaquil Barrett, Matt Paradis, Shane Ray, Billy Turner, Bradley Roby, Andre Holmes, Zach Kerr, Gino Gradkowski, Jamar Taylor, Shelby Harris, Jeff Heuerman, Deiontrez Mount, Max Garcia, Kevin Hogan, Casey Kreiter, Jordan Taylor, Jerrol Garcia-Williams, Elijah Wilkinson, Joe Jones, Brian Parker, Matt LaCossse, Dymonte Thomas, Tim Patrick

There's just a lot of holes to fill and not much resources for it. Would help to have a significantly cheaper QB situation instead of a top 3 highest cap hit in the league for QB(even if we cut Keenum) https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/quarterback/

Should have cut Keenum, used the 11m saved on a 2 year 10m deal for Fitzpatrick and draft drew Lock. Our QB cap hit would be around 17.5m instead of ~30m and that could be the difference between signing/retaining a key player.

[Papa-pwn]

The optimist in me says that we still might draft a QB early. I hate the trade, I had been denouncing the idea of Flacco since the season ended, I've always thought it would be an idiotic and pointless move. Point being, we draft a rookie and I'll be pleased because we will have a fall back option when Flacco shows us what he's shown the rest of the league the last 4 years. I don't see him making it past midseason if we have a rookie breathing down his neck. The INTs and losses will force the team's hand.

[Freyaka]

Those numbers are a little off. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/ has us at 22m in cap space. Cut Keenum and get to 32m, cut Wolfe and Sanders to get to 52m. Don't forget draft picks -10m. So 42m, and that is not much left to cover replacing those key contributors we cut or to re-sign/replace/tender the many key contributors whose contracts are expiring.

Brandon Marshall, Jared Veldheer, Domata Peko, Tramaine Brock, Shaquil Barrett, Matt Paradis, Shane Ray, Billy Turner, Bradley Roby, Andre Holmes, Zach Kerr, Gino Gradkowski, Jamar Taylor, Shelby Harris, Jeff Heuerman, Deiontrez Mount, Max Garcia, Kevin Hogan, Casey Kreiter, Jordan Taylor, Jerrol Garcia-Williams, Elijah Wilkinson, Joe Jones, Brian Parker, Matt LaCossse, Dymonte Thomas, Tim Patrick

There's just a lot of holes to fill and not much resources for it. Would help to have a significantly cheaper QB situation instead of a top 3 highest cap hit in the league for QB(even if we cut Keenum) https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/quarterback/

Should have cut Keenum, used the 11m saved on a 2 year 10m deal for Fitzpatrick and draft drew Lock. Our QB cap hit would be around 17.5m instead of ~30m and that could be the difference between signing/retaining a key player.

You are forgetting Marshall has already been notified of his option not being picked up. He comes off the books. That's where the difference between our numbers is.

[Fantaztic7]

Joe Mahoney at MHR had a breakdown of situational stats for Flacco and Keenum. Here’s the excerpt on the deep ball without the data table:

“Throwing the deep ball

There is this persistent myth (at least among Broncos fans still traumatized by Rahim Moore’s mis-timed leap on the Flacco hail mary in 2012) that Flacco is good at throwing the deep ball.

While I would love to show you the entire league data for this, I can’t because profootballfocus.com will not let us (without a really expensive media-level subscription). What I can share with you is where Flacco has ranked (and his passer rating on passes that travelled 20 or more yards beyond the LOS) during every year of his career.

It’s fairly clear from the data that Flacco has not been good at throwing the deep ball since he won the Super Bowl MVP and signed that massive contract. The Flacco Apologists on the staff would like to point out that Flacco has had little in the way of deep threats at wide receiver with the Ravens over the past six seasons, but there are other QBs who were able to generate much better deep passing stats than Flacco in 2018 with receiving corps that were as limited as the Ravens’ corps from last season.

Flacco attempted 52 deep passes and completed 12 (four were dropped) for three TDs and three INTs. By way of comparison, Keenum attempted 72 deep passes, completing 26 (four were dropped) for five TDs and eight INTs. Keenum led the league in deep interceptions. For comparison, Russell Wilson, who was one of the best deep passers in the league in 2018, attempted 68 deep passes, completing 33 (0 drops) for 15 TDs and only one INT. Using a minimum of 10 attempts to qualify, Keenum was the 33rd rated deep passer in 2018, and Flacco was the 37th. Both sucked.“

[gtown53]

Joe Mahoney at MHR had a breakdown of situational stats for Flacco and Keenum. Here’s the excerpt on the deep ball without the data table:

“Throwing the deep ball

There is this persistent myth (at least among Broncos fans still traumatized by Rahim Moore’s mis-timed leap on the Flacco hail mary in 2012) that Flacco is good at throwing the deep ball.

While I would love to show you the entire league data for this, I can’t because profootballfocus.com will not let us (without a really expensive media-level subscription). What I can share with you is where Flacco has ranked (and his passer rating on passes that travelled 20 or more yards beyond the LOS) during every year of his career.

It’s fairly clear from the data that Flacco has not been good at throwing the deep ball since he won the Super Bowl MVP and signed that massive contract. The Flacco Apologists on the staff would like to point out that Flacco has had little in the way of deep threats at wide receiver with the Ravens over the past six seasons, but there are other QBs who were able to generate much better deep passing stats than Flacco in 2018 with receiving corps that were as limited as the Ravens’ corps from last season.

Flacco attempted 52 deep passes and completed 12 (four were dropped) for three TDs and three INTs. By way of comparison, Keenum attempted 72 deep passes, completing 26 (four were dropped) for five TDs and eight INTs. Keenum led the league in deep interceptions. For comparison, Russell Wilson, who was one of the best deep passers in the league in 2018, attempted 68 deep passes, completing 33 (0 drops) for 15 TDs and only one INT. Using a minimum of 10 attempts to qualify, Keenum was the 33rd rated deep passer in 2018, and Flacco was the 37th. Both sucked.“

And I assume the point is that we shouldn't have traded for Flacco. Is that right? If so, what would YOU have done differently?

[Fantaztic7]

The optimist in me says that we still might draft a QB early. I hate the trade, I had been denouncing the idea of Flacco since the season ended, I've always thought it would be an idiotic and pointless move. Point being, we draft a rookie and I'll be pleased because we will have a fall back option when Flacco shows us what he's shown the rest of the league the last 4 years. I don't see him making it past midseason if we have a rookie breathing down his neck. The INTs and losses will force the team's hand.

The optimist in me hopes the Broncos draft a great Tackle and/or Guard to strengthen the offensive line. Flacco has a chance to help if the line can protect him consistently. Keenum avoided some sacks with his mobility (not that it’s great) but Flacco will need better pass protection.

[Fantaztic7]

And I assume the point is that we shouldn't have traded for Flacco. Is that right? If so, what would YOU have done differently?

No, the point is that the deep ball accuracy isn’t that great. If we see improvement in 2019 then it will be a welcome change.

[Jonny_Quest]

The optimist in me hopes the Broncos draft a great Tackle and/or Guard to strengthen the offensive line. Flacco has a chance to help if the line can protect him consistently. Keenum avoided some sacks with his mobility (not that it’s great) but Flacco will need better pass protection.

Keenum's pocket awareness was dismal, though.

He took so many sacks when the pocket was collapsing rather than rolling out and trying to extend the play.

Some of that is on coaching, since they were trying to make him a pure pocket passer, but he still could have extended a lot of plays with better pocket sense.

I'm hoping Flacco is an upgrade in this regard.

[Freyaka]

Joe Mahoney at MHR had a breakdown of situational stats for Flacco and Keenum. Here’s the excerpt on the deep ball without the data table:

“Throwing the deep ball

There is this persistent myth (at least among Broncos fans still traumatized by Rahim Moore’s mis-timed leap on the Flacco hail mary in 2012) that Flacco is good at throwing the deep ball.

While I would love to show you the entire league data for this, I can’t because profootballfocus.com will not let us (without a really expensive media-level subscription). What I can share with you is where Flacco has ranked (and his passer rating on passes that travelled 20 or more yards beyond the LOS) during every year of his career.

It’s fairly clear from the data that Flacco has not been good at throwing the deep ball since he won the Super Bowl MVP and signed that massive contract. The Flacco Apologists on the staff would like to point out that Flacco has had little in the way of deep threats at wide receiver with the Ravens over the past six seasons, but there are other QBs who were able to generate much better deep passing stats than Flacco in 2018 with receiving corps that were as limited as the Ravens’ corps from last season.

Flacco attempted 52 deep passes and completed 12 (four were dropped) for three TDs and three INTs. By way of comparison, Keenum attempted 72 deep passes, completing 26 (four were dropped) for five TDs and eight INTs. Keenum led the league in deep interceptions. For comparison, Russell Wilson, who was one of the best deep passers in the league in 2018, attempted 68 deep passes, completing 33 (0 drops) for 15 TDs and only one INT. Using a minimum of 10 attempts to qualify, Keenum was the 33rd rated deep passer in 2018, and Flacco was the 37th. Both sucked.“

This is not me being an "appologist" but there's more to it than him just struggling to throw the deep ball since he won the Superbowl. And that's not even an accurate analysis really.

He won the superbowl in 2012. He had 60 passes over 20 yards that year and 12 over 40.

In 2013 he had 45 over 20 and 14 over 40.
In 2014 with Kubes he had 50 over 20 and 7 over 40.
From 2015 on he had Marty Mornweig who just refuses to call plays that throw down field. You see a steep decline from 2014 with Kubes to 2015-2018 under Mornweig.

It's a combination of not having any true deep ball threats (though he had Perriman in 2016 and that shows because that year he jumped back up to 40 over 20 and 11 over 40) and having a scheme that frankly doesn't maximize what he's best at.

[Freyaka]

For giggles though, I asked some Ravens fans who watch far more flacco than I do. The general concensus is that it's a combination of two things. He's had some back issues (which are now resolved) that prevented him from getting his normal velocity and Marty Mornwig is a terrible offensive coordinator.

We'll see, we can speculate for hours about if he can or cannot throw deep, but up until 2015 he could, (and really, he had success in 2016) so in 2015, 2017 (back injury/bad OC) and 2018) he struggled with deep passes.oh and 2015 he was injured half the year too so really it's just the last two years.

[Fantaztic7]

Keenum's pocket awareness was dismal, though.

He took so many sacks when the pocket was collapsing rather than rolling out and trying to extend the play.

Some of that is on coaching, since they were trying to make him a pure pocket passer, but he still could have extended a lot of plays with better pocket sense.

I'm hoping Flacco is an upgrade in this regard.

Keenum definitely struggled with pocket awareness, especially through one stretch of the season. He started to do better with avoiding sacks but there were several sacks he took when he could have thrown the ball away.

[Fantaztic7]

For giggles though, I asked some Ravens fans who watch far more flacco than I do. The general concensus is that it's a combination of two things. He's had some back issues (which are now resolved) that prevented him from getting his normal velocity and Marty Mornwig is a terrible offensive coordinator.

We'll see, we can speculate for hours about if he can or cannot throw deep, but up until 2015 he could, (and really, he had success in 2016) so in 2015, 2017 (back injury/bad OC) and 2018) he struggled with deep passes.oh and 2015 he was injured half the year too so really it's just the last two years.

You’re right about speculating on whether he can or can’t. There is context behind every statistic and reasons for playing well or poorly. If healthy Flacco can make a defense defend every part of the field. He was also better on 3rd down conversations last season. Elway needs to invest in the offensive line and as you noted we need better play at TE. On balance I think the trade has some upside. That might not be evident from challenging some aspects of Flacco’s skills. Living near Baltimore, I’ve watched a fair number of Ravens games. I hope we get the version of Flacco who can lead the Broncos to the playoffs.

[JvDub95]

We are lucky to have a SB winning QB on the Broncos.
(And an experienced, proven winner, and a leader.
Hopefully he can be successful and play here, for 3 or more years.

I'm leaning toward 1 year with the rookie we draft this year taking over in 2020