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  • Still hate everything about this move. Literally everything.

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    • Originally posted by TheAsianPA View Post
      Turner knows he doesn't have to take a hometown discount when it's probably hard to find an OLineman who can play OG and OT both adequately. I'm sure he was asking for starting pay, quite possibly within the 10 million range.
      I can't imagine that he would even dare to ask for that much, maybe 5 million, but 10 million, that would be laughable, there is no way he asked for that. If he signs anywhere for even half of that rate annually, I'll be shocked, he is a competition player and potential starter in the NFL, he isn't getting handed a job anywhere. And although I didn't understand some of the shuffles at offensive line this past year, because our coaches were incompetent, he was still benched at one point, so I see no way he can ask for that much.

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      • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
        I can't imagine that he would even dare to ask for that much, maybe 5 million, but 10 million, that would be laughable, there is no way he asked for that. If he signs anywhere for even half of that rate annually, I'll be shocked, he is a competition player and potential starter in the NFL, he isn't getting handed a job anywhere. And although I didn't understand some of the shuffles at offensive line this past year, because our coaches were incompetent, he was still benched at one point, so I see no way he can ask for that much.
        They made sense to me. Starting five was Bolles, Leary, Paradis, McGovern and Veldheer. Paradis goes down, McGovern moves to C and Garcia comes in at RG. Leary goes down and Turner starts at LG. Garcia goes down and Wilkinson comes in at RG.

        Billy Turner is quality depth by NFL standards. He can play either G and RT, and might be able to hang at LT in a pinch. After he tests FA waters he may return to Elway's deal as you previously suggested, unless another team with a lot of cap space pays him more.

        If Denver works a deal with Veldheer, he would be a great Swing Tackle IMO. If Paradis isn't re-signed, a game day C/G would be needed. Sam Jones has a chance to be that guy. Wilkinson has been tendered. I doubt if Garcia or Gradkowski will be back. The Broncos need a FA O-Lineman or two and need to draft one or two IMO.

        They need at least fifteen O-Linemen for TC and they currently have nine, ten if Wilkinson is included; Veldheer would make eleven. Munchak and Kuper will know what to do with the guys they have: start the best five and shuffle them to their best spots; if one goes down, bring in number six and reshuffle, if necessary..
        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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        • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
          They made sense to me. Starting five was Bolles, Leary, Paradis, McGovern and Veldheer. Paradis goes down, McGovern moves to C and Garcia comes in at RG. Leary goes down and Turner starts at LG. Garcia goes down and Wilkinson comes in at RG.

          Billy Turner is quality depth by NFL standards. He can play either G and RT, and might be able to hang at LT in a pinch. After he tests FA waters he may return to Elway's deal as you previously suggested, unless another team with a lot of cap space pays him more.

          If Denver works a deal with Veldheer, he would be a great Swing Tackle IMO. If Paradis isn't re-signed, a game day C/G would be needed. Sam Jones has a chance to be that guy. Wilkinson has been tendered. I doubt if Garcia or Gradkowski will be back. The Broncos need a FA O-Lineman or two and need to draft one or two IMO.

          They need at least fifteen O-Linemen for TC and they currently have nine, ten if Wilkinson is included; Veldheer would make eleven. Munchak and Kuper will know what to do with the guys they have: start the best five and shuffle them to their best spots; if one goes down, bring in number six and reshuffle, if necessary..
          You thought it made sense when Vance Joseph said "changes are coming", and then he went and benched Connor McGovern for Max Garcia around mid-season, when Connor was our best performing guard at that point ?

          You thought it made sense when Billy Turner replaced Jared Veldheer and improved the right side of the offense line dramatically, then as soon as Veldheer came back, Turner went back to the bench, before other injuries occured ?

          You thought it made sense 2 years ago when we were running a rotation at guard every other series, by forcing Max Garcia into the line up despite him having years of poor quality tape registered, and that poor level of play continuing once he was back on the field ?

          I agree with everything you said, but the moves I was referencing which didn't make sense were the ones I have just listed. I think adding offensive lineman in the draft should be a priority, and Veldheer could be good depth, but I am hoping to see some new faces starting up front next season. Hopefully we can see some improvement from Bolles under Munchak as well, and hopefully Leary can stay healthy.

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          • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
            You thought it made sense when Vance Joseph said "changes are coming", and then he went and benched Connor McGovern for Max Garcia around mid-season, when Connor was our best performing guard at that point ?

            You thought it made sense when Billy Turner replaced Jared Veldheer and improved the right side of the offense line dramatically, then as soon as Veldheer came back, Turner went back to the bench, before other injuries occured ?

            You thought it made sense 2 years ago when we were running a rotation at guard every other series, by forcing Max Garcia into the line up despite him having years of poor quality tape registered, and that poor level of play continuing once he was back on the field ?

            I agree with everything you said, but the moves I was referencing which didn't make sense were the ones I have just listed. I think adding offensive lineman in the draft should be a priority, and Veldheer could be good depth, but I am hoping to see some new faces starting up front next season. Hopefully we can see some improvement from Bolles under Munchak as well, and hopefully Leary can stay healthy.
            I was referring to 2018.

            IIRC, Turner had 11 starts at LG, Wilkinson had 7 at RG and Garcia didn't play RG until McGovern had moved to C.
            Last edited by samparnell; 03-09-2019, 01:06 AM.
            "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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            • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
              I was referring to 2018.

              IIRC, Turner had 11 starts at LG, Wilkinson had 7 at RG and Garcia didn't play RG until McGovern had moved to C.
              McGovern was benched going into the game against the Rams when we were 2-3 in favour of Max Garcia. It didn't last long though, so you probably don't remember it, but it was a stupid move which came after the Joseph quote, "changes are coming". Matt Paradis started that same game and wasn't injured until the Houston game a month later. Also, the final point I made was the only one that referred to 2017, it just further highlighted the constant bizarre and strange things the last coaching staff done.

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              • I have a sneaking suspicion that Flacco is just a place holder who is not Keenum and will compete for the starting job in camp among hopefully many. We got him for a 4th that we got for Thomas who is injured again, So he's kinda sorta free ish.

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                • John Elway is a HOFQB. You would think he could look into the eyes of a QB and see that certain something that makes them special, or at least understand the errors of his ways and switch it up. For the life of me I can't understand why a QB has the hardest time finding a QB to run his team???

                  To be fair, it used to be the Broncos beat the Patriots no matter which QB you had. But I just can't figure out how Elway has such trouble finding a franchise QB.

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                  • Originally posted by furi0usbee View Post
                    John Elway is a HOFQB. You would think he could look into the eyes of a QB and see that certain something that makes them special, or at least understand the errors of his ways and switch it up. For the life of me I can't understand why a QB has the hardest time finding a QB to run his team???

                    To be fair, it used to be the Broncos beat the Patriots no matter which QB you had. But I just can't figure out how Elway has such trouble finding a franchise QB.
                    That's what happens when most of your QBs are bargain bin selections. That's what happens when you're afraid to take the chance on using premium resources to get a QB.

                    He hasn't used a pick higher than 26th overall on a QB and only two picks have been used on QBs before the 7th round.

                    Couple that with all the has-beens from other teams like Flacco, Keenum, Sanchez, and this is what you get.

                    Ultimately, you have to bite the bullet and get into the top 5 to take a chance on your guy, you need to take that chance. It may backfire, but it has a better chance of succeeding than if you just don't try at all.

                    You look at the historically bad teams like the Browns of 2000-2018, and their biggest problem was never having the right QB. Because they never took a chance on one in the top 10 in that span up until Mayfield. They had opportunities to get guys like Rodgers, Big Ben, Wentz, any of the 2017 QBs Mahomes/Watson/Trubisky, but instead went "BPA" and got guys like Corey Coleman, Kellen Winslow, and Braylon Edwards

                    If you don't have the balls for spending a premier pick on a QB, then you have to really shell out for someone like we did with Manning. But Manning's and the like don't hit the FA or trade market more than once every decade at best.

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                    • Originally posted by Papa-pwn View Post
                      That's what happens when most of your QBs are bargain bin selections. That's what happens when you're afraid to take the chance on using premium resources to get a QB.

                      He hasn't used a pick higher than 26th overall on a QB and only two picks have been used on QBs before the 7th round.

                      Couple that with all the has-beens from other teams like Flacco, Keenum, Sanchez, and this is what you get.

                      Ultimately, you have to bite the bullet and get into the top 5 to take a chance on your guy, you need to take that chance. It may backfire, but it has a better chance of succeeding than if you just don't try at all.

                      You look at the historically bad teams like the Browns of 2000-2018, and their biggest problem was never having the right QB. Because they never took a chance on one in the top 10 in that span up until Mayfield. They had opportunities to get guys like Rodgers, Big Ben, Wentz, any of the 2017 QBs Mahomes/Watson/Trubisky, but instead went "BPA" and got guys like Corey Coleman, Kellen Winslow, and Braylon Edwards

                      If you don't have the balls for spending a premier pick on a QB, then you have to really shell out for someone like we did with Manning. But Manning's and the like don't hit the FA or trade market more than once every decade at best.
                      This is why I'm good with Lock @ 10 IF, he's there.

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                      • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                        McGovern was benched going into the game against the Rams when we were 2-3 in favour of Max Garcia. It didn't last long though, so you probably don't remember it, but it was a stupid move which came after the Joseph quote, "changes are coming". Matt Paradis started that same game and wasn't injured until the Houston game a month later. Also, the final point I made was the only one that referred to 2017, it just further highlighted the constant bizarre and strange things the last coaching staff done.
                        The O-Line starters in the first game were Bolles, Leary, Paradis, McGovern and Veldheer. They played all the snaps in game 1 against Seattle.

                        Veldheer started game 2 against Oakland, but was hurt and left the game after 32 snaps. Turner took 35 snaps the rest of the way, I believe. Veldheer was Questionable for game 3 at Baltimore, but started and played all the snaps at RT. Veldheer started against KC, but played 16 snaps before Turner came in for the remaining 44.

                        Veldheer was out for the following game at NYJ, so Turner took all the snaps at RT in that game. Bolles had to leave the game for 12 snaps and Wilkinson filled in.

                        I had forgotten that McGovern missed the start against the Rams in game 6. Veldheer was Questionable for that game and did not play. Turner started at RT and took all the snaps along with Bolles and Paradis. Leary started at LG, but played 38 of the 66 snaps. He was out for the next game and on IR after that. Garcia started at RG and took 44 of the 66 snaps. McGovern had 50 snaps against the Rams.

                        Veldheer was Out for game 7 at Arizona and game 8 against KC. Bolles, Garcia, Paradis, McGovern and Turner started and played all the snaps in game 7 at AZ and in game 8 at KC.

                        Veldheer was back for the second half of the season and took over at RT against the Texans in game 9. Paradis got hurt after playing 26 of the 66 snaps and Wilkinson came in for the remaining 40 snaps with McGovern moving to C, I believe. Paradis was on IR the rest of the season as was Max Garcia.

                        After the bye, the starters in game 10 at LA Chargers were Bolles, Turner, McGovern, Wilkinson and Veldheer and they took all the snaps in that game. Same for game 11 against the Steelers, game 12 at Cincinnati, game 13 at San Francisco, game 14 against the Browns and for game 15 at Oakland. They also started the last game against the Chargers, but Gradkowski and Jones got some snaps, too.

                        There are several reasons O-Line coaches shuffle their guys. They want to see how well they play at different spots. They try to find the best spot for each guy. And, they are looking for the right chemistry among their players. Shuffling is also necessary when dealing with injuries to starters.
                        Last edited by samparnell; 03-09-2019, 09:17 AM.
                        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                        • Originally posted by furi0usbee View Post
                          John Elway is a HOFQB. You would think he could look into the eyes of a QB and see that certain something that makes them special, or at least understand the errors of his ways and switch it up. For the life of me I can't understand why a QB has the hardest time finding a QB to run his team???

                          To be fair, it used to be the Broncos beat the Patriots no matter which QB you had. But I just can't figure out how Elway has such trouble finding a franchise QB.
                          I’m sure many people thought Magic Johnson would be a great head coach in basketball. He wasn’t even close.

                          Being a great player doesn’t usually translate to being a great coach or administrator.
                          My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                          You Mad Bro?
                          Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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                          • Elway has been a great GM for the Broncos, 2 Super Bowl appearances, and a Super Bowl championship!
                            If we replace him, who would be a better GM for the Broncos ?
                            (Elway should have learned a lot by this point, and is an experienced GM now.)

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                            • Elway has been a good gm to get manning. That's it.
                              Until we get a TRUE not name "Lock" qb we will miss the playoffs and be average at best! I'm E2DS and I approve this message! "AND IF YOU DON'T KNOW, NOW YA KNOW."

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                              • Originally posted by Ear2dastreets View Post
                                Elway has been a good gm to get manning. That's it.
                                What about past Drafts . Some have not panned out but we've got some really good young players that I think will be big players in the future

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