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  • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
    This attitude takes quite some orange glasses to see from the current state. Paxton Lynch massively outperformend Lock, and while Lock had some good plays, he was also intercepted once and had two passes/dropped interceptions, that would have been intercepted if he did not play against 3rd stringers.

    Lock in college did not dominate, and was not seen as anything close to a franchise QB by the league. Joe is one of the very few QBs that have beaten both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady in away playoff games. Flacco has shown over a decade that he can get things done, and at this point Lock would loose a spot to Paxton Lynch.
    This attitude takes quite some lack of understanding to see from current state.

    Lock absolutely did dominate in college, setting the SEC record for TDs cannot be seen as anything other than dominant. To say Lynch, a 4th year player, massively outperformed a rookie lock is both disingenuous to what really happened and sensationalized. Lock would absolutely not lose his spot to Lynch, considering Lynch lost his spot to Chad kelly- a lesser talent compared to Lock. How can you say what the league sees Lock as? Due to his draft placement? I don't see how that's a valid indictment when Drew Brees is playing in the league.

    Flacco has not shown he can get things done, he has shown that he can consistently perform as an average to below average QB on a good team. That's a fact, that doesn't change now that he's a Bronco. He has won, yes, but as an individual player his career high was average and his current form is well, well below that.

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    • Originally posted by Jonny_Quest View Post
      Let me see if I have this straight. The average NFL QB has:

      - A 96-67 record
      - A Super Bowl MVP trophy
      - An 84.1 Career QB Rating

      Yeah...totally par for the course. Who doesn't have that?
      Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer won Super Bowls and have winning percentages over .500 (Johnson’s winning% nearly identical). Would you say they were above average quarterbacks?
      Last edited by Fantaztic7; 08-11-2019, 09:56 AM.

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      • I don’t think QB is the problem it’s been in the past few seasons. Flacco is a total upgrade from CK who was just a more hyped up Trev. We no longer have a backup masquerading as a starter. But a true starter who’s won big games on his arm and knows how to hit his WR’s when they’re open. And Lock simply isn’t ready. Nothing from him the past two games has shown anything to show the opposite.

        Now here’s where I see our biggest issue this year, The receiving group. Our TE’s and WR’s strike fear in NO ONE. There’s not a single threat that will make a team roll coverage. All have suspect hands and our “vet” has decided to crank his diva-tude up at 32. It’s the weakest point of the team. And when we decided to move on from DT, we should moved on from ES as well. At least DT was praised for his work with the young guys and not fighting them. Our biggest receiving threat right now is our RB. That’s a major problem.
        #swapping

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        • Originally posted by Papa-pwn View Post
          This attitude takes quite some lack of understanding to see from current state.

          Lock absolutely did dominate in college, setting the SEC record for TDs cannot be seen as anything other than dominant. To say Lynch, a 4th year player, massively outperformed a rookie lock is both disingenuous to what really happened and sensationalized. Lock would absolutely not lose his spot to Lynch, considering Lynch lost his spot to Chad kelly- a lesser talent compared to Lock. How can you say what the league sees Lock as? Due to his draft placement? I don't see how that's a valid indictment when Drew Brees is playing in the league.

          Flacco has not shown he can get things done, he has shown that he can consistently perform as an average to below average QB on a good team. That's a fact, that doesn't change now that he's a Bronco. He has won, yes, but as an individual player his career high was average and his current form is well, well below that.
          You have aired your hate for Flacco over and over again for months, and shown that you think individual stats that do not correlate with W/L records are what matters. When you tout Locks record you obviously see some TDs as counting in your evaluation and others are excluded because he is not even the former Broncos QB that have scored the most TDs in the SEC.

          The simple thing is that the expectation for the Broncos QB is that we win more games than we loose, and Lock has not been impressive in that stat!

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          • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
            Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer won Super Bowls and have winning percentages over .500 (Johnson’s winning% nearly identical). Would you say they were above average quarterbacks?
            I would. IMO Dilfer is slightly above average, and Johnson is definitely above average. Neither is great IMO, just above average.
            "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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            • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
              This attitude takes quite some orange glasses to see from the current state. Paxton Lynch massively outperformed Lock, and while Lock had some good plays, he was also intercepted once and had two passes/dropped interceptions, that would have been intercepted if he did not play against 3rd stringers.

              Lock in college did not dominate, and was not seen as anything close to a franchise QB by the league. Joe is one of the very few QBs that have beaten both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady in away playoff games. Flacco has shown over a decade that he can get things done, and at this point Lock would loose a spot to Paxton Lynch.
              Massively outperformed is a reach. Regarding 3rd stringers, Lynch played most if not all snaps against the 2s and 3s in the 2nd half. Of the 10 longest plays by the Broncos offense, Lock accounted for seven. Lynch had 109 yards of offense and ran for a TD. Lock had 180 yards and a passed for a TD, granted he had more pass attempts. I think the OL provided more consistent protection for Lynch.

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              • I've voiced this before....that I did not quite understand the acquisition of Flacco. I hope I am wrong. But his best days are likely long gone, and a team that is up and coming, and partially rebuilding with talented youth, should (IMO) be also looking to find a young QB for the future. Which in my way of thinking, is Lock. That part I am good with.

                So again, for me, the plan makes sense if we are hoping for Joe to have 1 good season, to give us a chance this year, to perhaps make the playoffs. And the plan for it to work as I see it, is to put confidence and support in Lock, and let him grow as quickly as can be expected. And this is not such a shocking process anymore, given how many young QBs are getting handed the keys. A fitting example, Lamar Jackson.

                Many will disagree with this thought process, but as much as Flacco was not the guy I would have acquired, I see it working if he provides some basic leadership, skill, and hopefully mentorship talent.....so that we can groom, and even take some risk with Lock, sooner than later. Folks are stating that he learned from preseason game one to two, and I already love the fact he is not hesitant to go long ball, which does not rule out a game manager type, but tells me he will be a slinger and a confident one at that. I keep saying it, but I was fine with Jay's game, but not his personality at times. So I will be fine with another slinger, who is already improving, but is more likeable.

                Again, I hope Joe does well. If so, I have misjudged him a bit. But lets not give him a pass (so to speak) until he we season how the season evolves. Lets see if he has the arm, the ability to move a little, the health he requires. And if we can develop our long term QB in the process, then I will feel much better about The Broncos for the next 5-10 years.

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                • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                  I would. IMO Dilfer is slightly above average, and Johnson is definitely above average. Neither is great IMO, just above average.
                  I agree. IMO Dilfer and Johnson illustrate that having Super Bowl wins doesn’t mean they were great. Flacco’s career is a mixture of great/elite moments, average and some below average IMO. I don’t think his career will be defined fully until he retires. Let’s hope he saved the best play for 2019

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                  • Cant believe this thread still has steam lol

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                    • Originally posted by Papa-pwn View Post
                      Since Joe Flacco has those, the answer to your question is yes.

                      Yes, 97 wins. To accredit those solely to Flacco us a bit disingenuous. It is clear as day to anyone that he was not a significant catalyst to each and every victory. He played his role, yes, but he was more "along for the ride" than leading the charge with great play.

                      Baltimore has had a top 10 OL 8 of the 10 years he was there. Baltimore had a top 10 defense 8 of the 10 years, top 13 in every year, and top 5 in half of the years. Top 11 running attack in 6 of the 10 years. They were also in the better half of the league in team drops/yards after the catch by their recievers every year! The only part of their team since 2008 that has not individually consistently performed above average is Joe Flacco. One could argue that with even an average QB, Baltimore would have won more than one SB in that time frame. I'll give him the SB MVP, he had a great run. But one good 4 game span does not a career make. His individual perfomance is typically that of a fringe starter more so than a SB MVP.

                      Just a heads up on the passer rating, too. Since tou seem to think 84.1 is good. 84.1 would have been the 6th worst passer rating in the league last year. Flacco, coincidentally actually did have the 6th worst passer rating in 2018 at 84.2. 84.1 would have been a bottom 10 passer rating in each of the last 5 seasons. Lo and behold, 4 of the last 5 years saw Flacco in the bottom 10 of the league in passer rating. 3 of those he was 26th or lower.

                      For more context, Case Keenum's career passer rating is 84.5. How do you like him?
                      You can't accredit 97 wins to any player on the team really. But, the plays have to be run thru the QB. Being part of the solution is pure gold. He's 3rd I believe in Playoff wins of active QBs and will probably have a QBR of over 100 in those games. The Broncos this year could be very similar to the Raven teams JF has played on and led to the playoffs in the past as far as the running game and top defense. Our O-line will be improved and he will have a plethora of options at his disposal. His crunch time play is obviously superior considering the playoff wins.

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                        • As much as I still dislike him because of the "Mile High Miracle", and his "Jimmy Neutron type" hair do, I hope he has a good year or two left in his tank here in Denver.

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                          • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                            I would. IMO Dilfer is slightly above average, and Johnson is definitely above average. Neither is great IMO, just above average.
                            This sums up my thoughts perfectly.

                            I think people define the average quarterback at that 65th or 70th percentile because so much media focus is on the top 10%

                            I'd rate Dilfer at 55th percentile, Johnson at the 65th, and Flacco at the 70th or so.

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                            • Originally posted by Freyaka View Post
                              Well, he was an average at best QB his whole career. That doesn't magically change once he puts on the color orange.
                              I have been pretty much against Flacco being our starting QB since the news came out we were going to get him. At first I was hoping we would get someone better and release Flacco.

                              Just trying to set the stage for how I feel about Flacco

                              with that said...Average (or above average) would be a great improvement at QB over what we have had recently.

                              Still not a big fan of Flacco but I am warming up to the idea of him being a 1 year starter for us at this point.
                              Last edited by Hadez; 08-11-2019, 04:25 PM.
                              Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                              • Originally posted by Jonny_Quest View Post
                                This sums up my thoughts perfectly.

                                I think people define the average quarterback at that 65th or 70th percentile because so much media focus is on the top 10%

                                I'd rate Dilfer at 55th percentile, Johnson at the 65th, and Flacco at the 70th or so.
                                Actually if we include all Qbs who have started ANY game in the NFL those numbers probably go up.

                                If we narrow the list to QBs who have won a playoff game (150 QBs have won a playoff game in the SB era) those numbers probably go down.

                                I only say this because some people seem to evaluate QBs based on all QBs to have ever started a game in the NFL while others compare QBs to only "successful" QBs.

                                IMO that is the difference between Flacco being below average or above average is....in what context are we evaluating.
                                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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